There's nothing wrong with being both. I'm sure Kylie, Katie, Gaga, Jessie, Pink etc were taking notes on Wednesday because they've all taken inspiration from Madonna who still posesses the ablility to stop the presses after 4 decades in the music business.
Do you feel the same about Springsteen, McCartney, the Stones, the Eagles, Kiss, Bon Jovi, Sting etc? They dye their hair, have had surgical enhancements, haven't changed their acts... of course, they're all men.;-)
there's a big difference with those other acts in that their live appearances are based on thier musical ability as opposed to theatrics and dancing about. the theatrics and dancing about might look good when you are in your 20s but not when you are nearly in your 60s
remember of course that people have long taken the piss out of folk like mick jagger for being a grandad, or knocking on deaths door. the band does have a nickname the strolling bones for good reason. madonna isn't the first or last to have had critisism about age pointed at her. of course fans of madonna quite often aren't very knowledgeable about the greater world of music history so are often completely unaware that most of what she's done has been done before by other people. before madonna there was debbie harry/blondie for example. so many times do i see madonna fans waffling on complete and utter nonsense about things she has done like she's the first or best when it's been done before
old men who act age innapropriate will get critism just like women will. it's just that madonna is making up for a lack of musical ability by parading about the stage with a pile of half naked dancers during her shows instead of impressing people with an ability to sing well or play an instrument well like the other artists mentioned. when people go to see those acts, no-one gives a toss what they look like or what the stage looks like, the fans certainly don't want to see dancers and a pile of unknowns on the stage, they just want the band to turn up and play music they enjoy, they don't need theatrics to retain their attention
if a male artist had turned up and done the same thing, they would have got the same type of remarks too. it's got nothing to do with sexism. that's just a bullshit excuse. she looked bloody awful at the brits, but had she pulled off a great vocal performance people would have been talking about that instead, but she doesn't have a great voice so can't do that either, so that's why some people are saying she should retire, as she can't rely on a good looking sexual image to sell records anymore
I completely disagree. I think her attitude is absolutely spot on. Her daughter in particular, seems a very headstrong young woman (from what I can gather) and if Madonna were to say 'bad evil drugs, don't ever take them', I suspect it would elicit a rebellious response. I think it is far better to discuss drugs rationally and to not encourage drug taking (of course) but to discuss your own experiences honestly and openly - which is what she has done. In the industry she's in she will have been exposed to more drugs than a Colombian warlord so I think it's eminently sensible to be realistic. Drug taking and experimentation is a part of growing up for most people nowadays and not everyone that has the odd spliff or line of coke ends up dead with a syringe in their arm.
Wow. Do you know, you've totally changed my viewpoint. Your post is possibly one of the most sensible, and level headed posts I've read. Thanks for replying so succinctly. I agree with you 100%. It is hard for me to change my mind, but you certainly made me see things from a different perspective.
I do see where you're coming from and to a small point I agree. Madonna does have a point about the media being ageist towards her, but on the other hand, she can come across as perhaps trying too hard to be still be relevant. She doesn't need to try to be relevant, simply because she is! As long as she continues to make music then relevance isn't an issue. Another poster suggested (it might have been you, I can't remember), that she is herself being ageist, albeit inadvertently, because she has incredibly young dancers appear with her. This got me thinking, what if she did have dancers the same age as her? How would the media respond. I doubt they'd be kind, instead insisting it was like a pensioners jamboree, but it was a valid, and interesting point.
I think at the end of the day though, Madonna is just being Madonna because she doesn't know who else to be. She genuinely sees no problem with her being the same as she was 20 years ago, because in her eyes she IS the same as she was 20 years ago.
I remember my nan once told my uncle to stop car racing when he was 45 because he was acting like a 20 year old and had a family to consider. But in my uncles eyes he didn't see why he should stop! He loved high speeds, he loved being provocative, and the more people told him to stop, the worse he got. I think that for any individual, once they fall into a way of life and get the attention, it is very hard for them to change back into a lamb.
It does seem that the rest of the world has more of a problem accepting Madonna for being Madonna than Madonna herself does, but, I do agree with you, it is unnecessary for Madonna to constantly make a point about her age. She doesn't need to stop what she wants to keep doing, just do it because you want to, and not because you're trying to prove a non-existent ageist point.
No, she seems to have a problem with aging becuase it means her brand wears thin, and her image. Nothing to do with her dancers. She covers her hands etc, plasters on the make-up, all these things hint that she cannot get old, and that is the tragic part. I have no doubt she will be trotting out the same old stuff in ten years if she can. Good luck to her, but she's not my idea of a genuine musical talent, sorry.
Wow. Do you know, you've totally changed my viewpoint. Your post is possibly one of the most sensible, and level headed posts I've read. Thanks for replying so succinctly. I agree with you 100%. It is hard for me to change my mind, but you certainly made me see things from a different perspective.
Had she pulled off a great vocal performance people would have been talking about that instead, but she doesn't have a great voice so can't do that either, so that's why some people are saying she should retire, as she can't rely on a good looking sexual image to sell records anymore
But, critics were commentating on her live vocals. Infact some were saying how impressive it was that her voice had improved with age and after the grammy's one critic even suggested that she could teach Mariah Carey how to sing live.
You have to be careful not to entwine your personal opinion with something that wasn't overly commented upon. If her vocals were bad, boy oh boy, the media would have ripped her to shreds more than they did.
No, she seems to have a problem with aging becuase it means her brand wears thin, and her image. Nothing to do with her dancers. She covers her hands etc, plasters on the make-up, all these things hint that she cannot get old, and that is the tragic part. I have no doubt she will be trotting out the same old stuff in ten years if she can. Good luck to her, but she's not my idea of a genuine musical talent, sorry.
We can't always agree on everything, and at least your viewpoint is honest, rather than cruel.
But, critics were commentating on her live vocals.
it's a pretty poor state of affairs when critics have to mention that a singer is actually singing, dont' you think?
Infact some were saying how impressive it was that her voice had improved with age
some? how many exactly?
and after the grammy's one critic even suggested that she could teach Mariah Carey how to sing live.
wow. one person made a joke. did the joke go over your head?
You have to be careful not to entwine your personal opinion with something that wasn't overly commented upon.
mirror mirror on the wall...
If her vocals were bad, boy oh boy, the media would have ripped her to shreds more than they did.
no-one said her vocals during that performance were bad. you are taking a comment about her not being able to stand up with musical ability alone, and not being a great singer, and answering about something else entirely. theres a big difference between being bad and not being great. do you think that was a great vocal performance? if you do, just wait till you hear some really good singers and they will blow you away with their ability. they probably don't dance about on stage in their pants with a load of half naked folk either
I disagree with this point. She is totally unpretentious. She doesn't think she's a musical genius at all. Infact she has openly admitted several times that she's not the greatest singer or dancer, but does consider herself an artist. As an artist and a person who has one of the biggest fanbases in the world, she does enlighten those who are her fans. She is who she is because of her fans. She doesn't really worry too much about non-fans because they're always going to have a different opinion about her. i wouldn't describe her as delusional either, but I do think she doesn't really understand the way people buy music these days. She does have an old fashioned idea that people still go the "record store" and buy singles!
I can't understand these ageing female & male pop stars who insist on working right up to the day 'til their legs give away & collapse onstage (God forbid!).
Surely their pension funds must be rolling in MILLIONS of dollars/pounds enough to keep them happy and enjoy the rewards of their hard work in their twilight years to come?
Maybe it's because they actually enjoy what they do and arent, like most of us, working because we have to.
Umm, no, because they don't have to sell a sexual image to get ahead, and stay on top. That is the nub of it I think. Paul McCartney, Mick Jagger, David Bowie, and Sting for example, have never had to use nudity to sell their music. Not just because they have genuine talent, but also because they are male and don't feel the need to. Many female singers like Madonna ushered in a whole slew of female singers who used sexual imagery to get attention, and sadly, they have to stick with it, because that is what the public expects of them after a while. If Madonna had any real talent she would have grown and developed as an artist, instead she trots out the usual tricks, and looks like a one note pony:p
You can't be serious. Mick Jagger and David Bowie are very sexual performers. Their sexuality is a big part of their appeal. As Madonna said in the interview, why can't a woman be seen as sexual and talented at the same time? Why does the fact that she uses her sexuality negate her talent? If you've actually listened to her music, you would know there's a lot of diversity to her songs and she's hardly a one trick pony.
there's a big difference with those other acts in that their live appearances are based on thier musical ability as opposed to theatrics and dancing about. the theatrics and dancing about might look good when you are in your 20s but not when you are nearly in your 60s
remember of course that people have long taken the piss out of folk like mick jagger for being a grandad, or knocking on deaths door. the band does have a nickname the strolling bones for good reason. madonna isn't the first or last to have had critisism about age pointed at her. of course fans of madonna quite often aren't very knowledgeable about the greater world of music history so are often completely unaware that most of what she's done has been done before by other people. before madonna there was debbie harry/blondie for example. so many times do i see madonna fans waffling on complete and utter nonsense about things she has done like she's the first or best when it's been done before
old men who act age innapropriate will get critism just like women will. it's just that madonna is making up for a lack of musical ability by parading about the stage with a pile of half naked dancers during her shows instead of impressing people with an ability to sing well or play an instrument well like the other artists mentioned. when people go to see those acts, no-one gives a toss what they look like or what the stage looks like, the fans certainly don't want to see dancers and a pile of unknowns on the stage, they just want the band to turn up and play music they enjoy, they don't need theatrics to retain their attention
if a male artist had turned up and done the same thing, they would have got the same type of remarks too. it's got nothing to do with sexism. that's just a bullshit excuse. she looked bloody awful at the brits, but had she pulled off a great vocal performance people would have been talking about that instead, but she doesn't have a great voice so can't do that either, so that's why some people are saying she should retire, as she can't rely on a good looking sexual image to sell records anymore
This is just silly. Why can't theatrics, dancing and musical talent all co-exist together in a performance? What about musical theatre on Broadway and the West End? No one says people who perform in those lack musical talent because there's dancing and theatrics involved as well. Madonna's performances are like musical theatre. I enjoy some rock and indie artists who just play instruments and sing, but why is that the only way of performing that should be allowed? The visual part of concerts is important. If it wasn't you could just sit home and listen to the album. What about someone like David Bowie who is visual in his stage shows. Why does no one say he lacks talent?
I disagree with this point. She is totally unpretentious. She doesn't think she's a musical genius at all. Infact she has openly admitted several times that she's not the greatest singer or dancer, but does consider herself an artist. As an artist and a person who has one of the biggest fanbases in the world, she does enlighten those who are her fans. She is who she is because of her fans. She doesn't really worry too much about non-fans because they're always going to have a different opinion about her. i wouldn't describe her as delusional either, but I do think she doesn't really understand the way people buy music these days. She does have an old fashioned idea that people still go the "record store" and buy singles!
I agree. This is one thing I love about her. For a superstar on her level she's pretty normal and down to earth and not too stuck on herself. She always credits other songwriters and producers for helping her and inspiring her, not saying I'm the genius and I did everything by myself. She has a lot of fans, but she also gets a lot of really mean criticism from people who doubt her talent. This may sound odd, but maybe that's not a bad thing. I think it keeps her a little more modest really. A lot of artists who are praised all the time and told they are musical geniuses get really stuck on themselves and ego crazy.
You can't be serious. Mick Jagger and David Bowie are very sexual performers. Their sexuality is a big part of their appeal. As Madonna said in the interview, why can't a woman be seen as sexual and talented at the same time? Why does the fact that she uses her sexuality negate her talent? If you've actually listened to her music, you would know there's a lot of diversity to her songs and she's hardly a one trick pony.
you are seriously saying that Bowie and Jagger have used as much sexual imagery to sell their music? yeh, ok then!
there's a big difference with those other acts in that their live appearances are based on thier musical ability as opposed to theatrics and dancing about. the theatrics and dancing about might look good when you are in your 20s but not when you are nearly in your 60s
remember of course that people have long taken the piss out of folk like mick jagger for being a grandad, or knocking on deaths door. the band does have a nickname the strolling bones for good reason. madonna isn't the first or last to have had critisism about age pointed at her. of course fans of madonna quite often aren't very knowledgeable about the greater world of music history so are often completely unaware that most of what she's done has been done before by other people. before madonna there was debbie harry/blondie for example. so many times do i see madonna fans waffling on complete and utter nonsense about things she has done like she's the first or best when it's been done before
old men who act age innapropriate will get critism just like women will. it's just that madonna is making up for a lack of musical ability by parading about the stage with a pile of half naked dancers during her shows instead of impressing people with an ability to sing well or play an instrument well like the other artists mentioned. when people go to see those acts, no-one gives a toss what they look like or what the stage looks like, the fans certainly don't want to see dancers and a pile of unknowns on the stage, they just want the band to turn up and play music they enjoy, they don't need theatrics to retain their attention
if a male artist had turned up and done the same thing, they would have got the same type of remarks too. it's got nothing to do with sexism. that's just a bullshit excuse. she looked bloody awful at the brits, but had she pulled off a great vocal performance people would have been talking about that instead, but she doesn't have a great voice so can't do that either, so that's why some people are saying she should retire, as she can't rely on a good looking sexual image to sell records anymore
I totally agree with you on every point you've made. I guess at the end of the day her loyal fans will defend their idol whatever. She could come on stage and just burp, and they'd go into raptures about her:D
You can't be serious. Mick Jagger and David Bowie are very sexual performers. Their sexuality is a big part of their appeal. As Madonna said in the interview, why can't a woman be seen as sexual and talented at the same time? Why does the fact that she uses her sexuality negate her talent? If you've actually listened to her music, you would know there's a lot of diversity to her songs and she's hardly a one trick pony.
There was diversity 15-20 years ago, not much now.
I totally agree with you on every point you've made. I guess at the end of the day her loyal fans will defend their idol whatever. She could come on stage and just burp, and they'd go into raptures about her:D
You think her fans are brainwashed? Well, one thing I find enlightening about being a Madonna fan is discovering how critical of her they are. You clearly haven't seen comments about her made by fans about her Hard Candy era, and moreso MDNA. When she makes music that is not up to standard, her fans are are first in line to express their displeasure. Some fans may be so blinded by their idol (the same with the fans of any idol), but overall I'd say Madonna fans are more protective because of the amount of criticism she gets. It's like "We can slag her off, but you can't".
of course fans of madonna quite often aren't very knowledgeable about the greater world of music history so are often completely unaware that most of what she's done has been done before by other people. before madonna there was debbie harry/blondie for example. so many times do i see madonna fans waffling on complete and utter nonsense about things she has done like she's the first or best when it's been done before
What did Debbie do first? I don't recall Debbie using religious imagery within her music or release a book called Sex full of nude pictures. I also don't recall Debbie inventing the world tour the way Madonna did with Blond Ambition - which is a direct quote from Rolling Stone when they branded it one of the best tours of the 1990s.
There is a reason Madonna is cited as the Queen of pop and has a legacy that lives on in all of todays female popstars from Katy to Rihanna.
It seems maybe you are the one who isn't knowledgeable.
it's a pretty poor state of affairs when critics have to mention that a singer is actually singing, dont' you think?
some? how many exactly?
wow. one person made a joke. did the joke go over your head?
mirror mirror on the wall...
no-one said her vocals during that performance were bad. you are taking a comment about her not being able to stand up with musical ability alone, and not being a great singer, and answering about something else entirely. theres a big difference between being bad and not being great. do you think that was a great vocal performance? if you do, just wait till you hear some really good singers and they will blow you away with their ability. they probably don't dance about on stage in their pants with a load of half naked folk either
POINT ONE: Critics were mentioning her live vocals because everyone just assumed, that like some other artists who performed at the Brits, she'd be miming. She wasn't.
POINT TWO: OK, I can't be exact, so maybe I should have been more factual. But certainly across the internet there were people who were saying that her voice was at the best its possibly ever been. I will try and do some research and supply links for you.
POINT THREE: You assume it was a joke. That's fine. However, they wrote those comments by comparing two videos. One with Madonna singing live at the grammy's with the backing track removed, and one where Mariah Carey was on stage where she'd forgotten the words to the song she was lip-syncing too. Carey is lauded industry-wide for having a fabulous voice but was miming. Madonna is regarded as miming because she has a bad singing voice, yet she was singing live - and perfectly in tune. Therefore, it wasn't a joke. At least, not as far as I'm concerned.
POINT FOUR: Ok, I'll give you that!
POINT FIVE: No, I don't think her voice is fabulous. I never have. But it isn't terrible either. Madonna is a complete package. If she had to succeed by using her voice alone then she wouldn't have made it to where she is now. She knows that, her fans know that. It is about the performance. The whole thing. A Madonna show is a spectacle of artistry where she involves new young people in order to give them a chance in the industry. It is theatrical, intimate yet diverse and more than just a concert.
I agree wholeheartedly that there are some groundbreaking, heart wrenching singers out there who would (and do) make Madonna sound like a professional karaoke act! But, that really isn't the point.
She actually reminds me a lot of Joan Crawford. Both used sex to kickstart their careers ( there are many stories about Madge sleeping with the right people) both created an image they in a sense became imprisoned within, both purchased children, possibly for publicity reasons, and both narcissistic. What next i wonder a 'Madge Dearest' ? 'Lourdes bring me the axe!!'
I have mixed feelings about Madge, she was my pin up when I was 11, I'm now 40 and you have to admire her for her stamina and dedication to still be going all these years later, but part of me wished she'd stop trying to be the sex kitten, that last topless photo thing she did a few weeks ago was cringeworthy.
Nothing wrong with growing old, but you can do it gracefully.
Comments
there's a big difference with those other acts in that their live appearances are based on thier musical ability as opposed to theatrics and dancing about. the theatrics and dancing about might look good when you are in your 20s but not when you are nearly in your 60s
remember of course that people have long taken the piss out of folk like mick jagger for being a grandad, or knocking on deaths door. the band does have a nickname the strolling bones for good reason. madonna isn't the first or last to have had critisism about age pointed at her. of course fans of madonna quite often aren't very knowledgeable about the greater world of music history so are often completely unaware that most of what she's done has been done before by other people. before madonna there was debbie harry/blondie for example. so many times do i see madonna fans waffling on complete and utter nonsense about things she has done like she's the first or best when it's been done before
old men who act age innapropriate will get critism just like women will. it's just that madonna is making up for a lack of musical ability by parading about the stage with a pile of half naked dancers during her shows instead of impressing people with an ability to sing well or play an instrument well like the other artists mentioned. when people go to see those acts, no-one gives a toss what they look like or what the stage looks like, the fans certainly don't want to see dancers and a pile of unknowns on the stage, they just want the band to turn up and play music they enjoy, they don't need theatrics to retain their attention
if a male artist had turned up and done the same thing, they would have got the same type of remarks too. it's got nothing to do with sexism. that's just a bullshit excuse. she looked bloody awful at the brits, but had she pulled off a great vocal performance people would have been talking about that instead, but she doesn't have a great voice so can't do that either, so that's why some people are saying she should retire, as she can't rely on a good looking sexual image to sell records anymore
Wow. Do you know, you've totally changed my viewpoint. Your post is possibly one of the most sensible, and level headed posts I've read. Thanks for replying so succinctly. I agree with you 100%. It is hard for me to change my mind, but you certainly made me see things from a different perspective.
No, she seems to have a problem with aging becuase it means her brand wears thin, and her image. Nothing to do with her dancers. She covers her hands etc, plasters on the make-up, all these things hint that she cannot get old, and that is the tragic part. I have no doubt she will be trotting out the same old stuff in ten years if she can. Good luck to her, but she's not my idea of a genuine musical talent, sorry.
Really?
Sorry - not sure if you're being sarcastic.
But, critics were commentating on her live vocals. Infact some were saying how impressive it was that her voice had improved with age and after the grammy's one critic even suggested that she could teach Mariah Carey how to sing live.
You have to be careful not to entwine your personal opinion with something that wasn't overly commented upon. If her vocals were bad, boy oh boy, the media would have ripped her to shreds more than they did.
No. Not being sarcastic. Apologies if it came across like that. I thought you wrote a brilliant post and it was thought provoking.
We can't always agree on everything, and at least your viewpoint is honest, rather than cruel.
Now, she is not so popular and looks a bit like mutton dressed as lamb.
A seven or eight pinter, I'd reckon.
Me being paranoid.
Thank you for your warm words.
Y O U you wanna!?
it's a pretty poor state of affairs when critics have to mention that a singer is actually singing, dont' you think?
some? how many exactly?
wow. one person made a joke. did the joke go over your head?
mirror mirror on the wall...
no-one said her vocals during that performance were bad. you are taking a comment about her not being able to stand up with musical ability alone, and not being a great singer, and answering about something else entirely. theres a big difference between being bad and not being great. do you think that was a great vocal performance? if you do, just wait till you hear some really good singers and they will blow you away with their ability. they probably don't dance about on stage in their pants with a load of half naked folk either
unpretentious ? really?
Maybe it's because they actually enjoy what they do and arent, like most of us, working because we have to.
You can't be serious. Mick Jagger and David Bowie are very sexual performers. Their sexuality is a big part of their appeal. As Madonna said in the interview, why can't a woman be seen as sexual and talented at the same time? Why does the fact that she uses her sexuality negate her talent? If you've actually listened to her music, you would know there's a lot of diversity to her songs and she's hardly a one trick pony.
This is just silly. Why can't theatrics, dancing and musical talent all co-exist together in a performance? What about musical theatre on Broadway and the West End? No one says people who perform in those lack musical talent because there's dancing and theatrics involved as well. Madonna's performances are like musical theatre. I enjoy some rock and indie artists who just play instruments and sing, but why is that the only way of performing that should be allowed? The visual part of concerts is important. If it wasn't you could just sit home and listen to the album. What about someone like David Bowie who is visual in his stage shows. Why does no one say he lacks talent?
I agree. This is one thing I love about her. For a superstar on her level she's pretty normal and down to earth and not too stuck on herself. She always credits other songwriters and producers for helping her and inspiring her, not saying I'm the genius and I did everything by myself. She has a lot of fans, but she also gets a lot of really mean criticism from people who doubt her talent. This may sound odd, but maybe that's not a bad thing. I think it keeps her a little more modest really. A lot of artists who are praised all the time and told they are musical geniuses get really stuck on themselves and ego crazy.
you are seriously saying that Bowie and Jagger have used as much sexual imagery to sell their music? yeh, ok then!
I totally agree with you on every point you've made. I guess at the end of the day her loyal fans will defend their idol whatever. She could come on stage and just burp, and they'd go into raptures about her:D
There was diversity 15-20 years ago, not much now.
You think her fans are brainwashed? Well, one thing I find enlightening about being a Madonna fan is discovering how critical of her they are. You clearly haven't seen comments about her made by fans about her Hard Candy era, and moreso MDNA. When she makes music that is not up to standard, her fans are are first in line to express their displeasure. Some fans may be so blinded by their idol (the same with the fans of any idol), but overall I'd say Madonna fans are more protective because of the amount of criticism she gets. It's like "We can slag her off, but you can't".
What did Debbie do first? I don't recall Debbie using religious imagery within her music or release a book called Sex full of nude pictures. I also don't recall Debbie inventing the world tour the way Madonna did with Blond Ambition - which is a direct quote from Rolling Stone when they branded it one of the best tours of the 1990s.
There is a reason Madonna is cited as the Queen of pop and has a legacy that lives on in all of todays female popstars from Katy to Rihanna.
It seems maybe you are the one who isn't knowledgeable.
POINT ONE: Critics were mentioning her live vocals because everyone just assumed, that like some other artists who performed at the Brits, she'd be miming. She wasn't.
POINT TWO: OK, I can't be exact, so maybe I should have been more factual. But certainly across the internet there were people who were saying that her voice was at the best its possibly ever been. I will try and do some research and supply links for you.
POINT THREE: You assume it was a joke. That's fine. However, they wrote those comments by comparing two videos. One with Madonna singing live at the grammy's with the backing track removed, and one where Mariah Carey was on stage where she'd forgotten the words to the song she was lip-syncing too. Carey is lauded industry-wide for having a fabulous voice but was miming. Madonna is regarded as miming because she has a bad singing voice, yet she was singing live - and perfectly in tune. Therefore, it wasn't a joke. At least, not as far as I'm concerned.
POINT FOUR: Ok, I'll give you that!
POINT FIVE: No, I don't think her voice is fabulous. I never have. But it isn't terrible either. Madonna is a complete package. If she had to succeed by using her voice alone then she wouldn't have made it to where she is now. She knows that, her fans know that. It is about the performance. The whole thing. A Madonna show is a spectacle of artistry where she involves new young people in order to give them a chance in the industry. It is theatrical, intimate yet diverse and more than just a concert.
I agree wholeheartedly that there are some groundbreaking, heart wrenching singers out there who would (and do) make Madonna sound like a professional karaoke act! But, that really isn't the point.
Nothing wrong with growing old, but you can do it gracefully.