I'm guessing there will be some cameos from the likes of John Barrowman. Ideally kept as a surprise until broadcast, but probably revealed a few weeks before in the prepublicity,after endless fibs and secrecy until November
I'm guessing there will be some cameos from the likes of John Barrowman. Ideally kept as a surprise until broadcast, but probably revealed a few weeks before in the prepublicity,after endless fibs and secrecy until November
Meglos!? Seriously?! Why the heck would they consider that? I don't think even Big Finish have done a 'Return of Meglos' story yet!
Yep - Meglos was originally going to be the villain in The Lodger, with the joke being that he considered the Doctor to be his greatest foe only for the Doctor to have no recollection who or what a Meglos was.
In the second video posted by Laura Amanda the doctor is telling Amy what will happen (Big bang2 etc) and tells her she will get to see her parents again because they can be brought back. Amy then says 'everyone except you'. (Because he is going in the pandorica, into the explosion.)
( There would be no point building it if he could get back out again somehow)
Anyway- I think it is a plausible theory and it works ( for me, in my head anyway:p)
Maybe John Barowman will lend his voice only as the Face of Boe?
In the second video posted by Laura Amanda the doctor is telling Amy what will happen (Big bang2 etc) and tells her she will get to see her parents again because they can be brought back. Amy then says 'everyone except you'. (Because he is going in the pandorica, into the explosion.)
( There would be no point building it if he could get back out again somehow)
Anyway- I think it is a plausible theory and it works ( for me, in my head anyway:p)
Maybe John Barowman will lend his voice only as the Face of Boe?
(In that last post- Didn't you just help to prove what I've been saying? )
You are saying no to my things, then going on to say how they are right, I think.
And a pleasure to be debating with you. And no, I'm not agreeing, I'm afraid!
You're saying that putting the Doctor into the Pandorica somehow caused the TARDIS to explode, however there's no dialogue at all in the episodes to support this. Rather, it's made clear by River that some outside force is controlling the TARDIS, forcing to a particular time and place - Amy's house on the day she started travelling with the Doctor, the time and date that the TARDIS explodes. As the Doctor says explictly, "Something drew the TARDIS to this particular date, and blew it up." It was the Doctor being trapped (not erased) in the Pandorica that sealed the universe's fate - rather than being the cause, he was the only one that could have prevented it.
The cause and effect is this:
TARDIS is sabotaged -> TARDIS explodes -> Reality starts to fracture -> Alliance is formed -> Alliance determines Doctor to be at fault -> Prison is created to confine him -> trap is constructed from Amy's memories -> Doctor is imprisoned -> Universe collapses except for epicentre -> Doctor is released -> Doctor uses stasis field to reboot the universe
What you describe is more like:
TARDIS explodes -> Reality starts to fracture -> Alliance is formed -> Alliance blames Doctor -> Prison is created to erase him from reality -> trap -> Doctor is imprisoned -> (?) -> TARDIS explodes -> Doctor released -> Doctor reboots universe
i.e. the right events in the wrong order.
Yes- it was designed to lock away the doctor, and the reason they needed bits of the universe in there was to try and ensure things would continue while he wasn't there. ( obviously it didn't work that way but they believed it would).
It's clearly stated why the Pandorica has a stasis field, and that wasn't the reason given. Hell, even if it were the reason, they didn't give it any mechanism by which it could work. Amy didn't cease to exist because the Pandorica was closed around her, she was held in stasis and didn't age or degrade.
RIVER:
So all the cracks in time will close, but he'll be on the wrong side... Trapped in the never-space, the void between the worlds. All memory of him will be purged from the universe. He will never have been born. Now, please. He wants to talk to you before he goes.
That and Amy saying he will not be reconstructed when the pandorica seals is what I am basing that part of my little theory on.
No, River's saying that he won't be in the universe because he'll be on the wrong side of reality, not because he's in the Pandorica. Effectively, what's going to happen to him is exactly what happened to Rory, or the Angels, or Octavian's soldiers.
It comes down to the tardis explodes due to the paradox of it existing when there is no Doctor.
That is why it blows up and that is why the cracks happen.
Whether it was directly due to the pandorica, or in a round about way- from the event of piloting it into the tardis- this is the event which does it. I think I have seen enough evidence on screen to tell me the pandorica did this. I'm sure loads of people won't agree.
The other view- that someone somehow snuck in and blew it up- again somehow, doesn't work for me. Sure- someone/thing was behind getting the alliance together to put him in the pandorica, but I don't think they physically blew up the tardis themselves. Otherwise what is the point of getting an alliance together to put him in a prison when he could be in any other prison, abandoned on an asteroid, or just plain killed. Or they could simply blow up the tardis again. Whether he is in it or not. the doctor without a tardis might be considered prison sentence enough?
Also, if every tardis which blew up caused the universe to crack then it would have happened already- many times. Either in the time war, or any other occasion where a timelord's tardis was destroyed.
It comes down to the tardis explodes due to the paradox of it existing when there is no Doctor.
That is why it blows up and that is why the cracks happen.
No. Where is there any part of the story that indicates that a) the Pandorica causes things to not exist, and b) the Doctor not existing would cause the TARDIS to explode, rather than (say) wink out of existence?
If the Pandorica erased the Doctor from existence, then how the hell did he manage to pilot the Pandorica and it's restoration field into the TARDIS explosion from the inside?
Whether it was directly due to the pandorica, or in a round about way- from the event of piloting it into the tardis- this is the event which does it. I think I have seen enough evidence on screen to tell me the pandorica did this. I'm sure loads of people won't agree.
I'd like to see some of that on-screen evidence. The Doctor himself states clearly and unambiguously that "Something drew the TARDIS to this particular date, and blew it up". There's no reason to assume that all TARDIS explosions are the same, or that the culprits knew the full consequences of their actions.
Your interpretation says that the events happened for precisely no reason, i.e. the events of the entire series, the destruction and recreation of the entire universe, just happened as a random quantum flux. It happened because it happened.
It comes down to the tardis explodes due to the paradox of it existing when there is no Doctor.
Except there is nothing suggested, nor any evidence to support this notion.
That is why it blows up and that is why the cracks happen.
Whether it was directly due to the pandorica, or in a round about way- from the event of piloting it into the tardis- this is the event which does it. I think I have seen enough evidence on screen to tell me the pandorica did this. I'm sure loads of people won't agree.
No - the TARDIS was already exploding when the Pandorica was piloted into it. This was a fairly major plot point.
The other view- that someone somehow snuck in and blew it up- again somehow, doesn't work for me. Sure- someone/thing was behind getting the alliance together to put him in the pandorica, but I don't think they physically blew up the tardis themselves. Otherwise what is the point of getting an alliance together to put him in a prison when he could be in any other prison, abandoned on an asteroid, or just plain killed. Or they could simply blow up the tardis again. Whether he is in it or not. the doctor without a tardis might be considered prison sentence enough?
Whether it works for you or not is entirely beside the point. You have ignored plot points and on-screen explanations to come up with your theory. There could be an argument that the events needed to create the Big Bang 2 so that something else could slip through, by highjacking itself into Amy's memory. But that's just conjecture, and doesn't need to ignore anything.
Also, if every tardis which blew up caused the universe to crack then it would have happened already- many times. Either in the time war, or any other occasion where a timelord's tardis was destroyed.
So - that's where I'm coming from.
When ever other TARDIS exploded, the universe was littered with Time Lords, and Gallifrey existed. There could be any number of plausible reasons that the explosions didn't tend the universe apart. Certainly a lot simpler than ignoring plot points to fit a theory together
I'll take a step back here, kyllerbuzcut, for the sake of perspective.
My aim in arguing the toss is not to say that you can't have your own interpretation of events, or to insist that my interpretation is the 'right' one. It's great that people can have different views of the source material - I love a bit of speculation.
But the original point that was brought up was in regards to 'questions that people hope will be answered'. And of course, different interpretations offer different questions to be answered. For example, your version of events doesn't involve external influence at all - the TARDIS blew up because of the events caused by the TARDIS blowing up.
At the other extreme, we have the interpretation that the events were precipitated by external agents, but that nothing about them has been revealed to date. The adherents of this perspective don't think that the identity of the assailants and their motives have been approached at all.
I take the middle path - there's enough circumstantial and thematic evidence to tie the Silence to the crime, even if we don't know exactly what fate they're attempting to avert. And I'm less bothered about how they were able to pull it off.
I do think someone or something was the start of it all also. Possibly, like was mentioned, so they could slip through into the universe using big bang 2. No one knows the real culprits yet. The silence seem to be involved somewhere but to what extent.
It's the method where people are differing. I think there have been plenty of quotes put up in this thread- not even by me- plus 2 video links by someone which I believe help to support the Doctor being wiped from the universe throughout all of time once permanently sealed inside the pandorica. ( at the exact moment when he hit the tardis explosion - [because that also happens to be the exact moment the whole explosion emanates from too] this is why they do both happen at the exact same moment because they both cause each other).
I'm not saying it just happened because it happened, but that someone planned it that way. They planned for the alliance to make the Doctor get locked in the pandorica and for the cracks to happen.
It's the who and the why we might hopefully find out soon.
Yep - Meglos was originally going to be the villain in The Lodger, with the joke being that he considered the Doctor to be his greatest foe only for the Doctor to have no recollection who or what a Meglos was.
Well The Lodger is complete pants but that might have made it quite amusing on a fan in-joke level. Poor old Meglos ranting away while the Doctor stares blankly at it!!
It's the method where people are differing. I think there have been plenty of quotes put up in this thread- not even by me- plus 2 video links by someone which I believe help to support the Doctor being wiped from the universe throughout all of time once permanently sealed inside the pandorica. ( at the exact moment when he hit the tardis explosion - [because that also happens to be the exact moment the whole explosion emanates from too] this is why they do both happen at the exact same moment because they both cause each other).
I don't think there's any quote that pertains to the Pandorica being sealed, only to the cracks being sealed - the cracks being the consequence of the explosion, not the cause.
Also, the date of the events of The Big Bang is not the date of the explosion.
The explosion happened on the date of Amy's wedding - the day the Doctor took her away, the night of River's conception, and also the date they all snapped back to when the universe was set to rights.
However, Amy was released from the Pandorica by her eight-year-old self, on the day that she was originally supposed to have met the Doctor, twelve years earlier. So that doesn't really fit.
"once and for all please stop saying I'm messing with u or lying, I am not in the 50th. I'm disappointed and all this just rubs it in. Jb"
I dont think this tweet actively rules JB out.
the reason being, the tweet is a little harsh sounding. particularly the bit about the fans rubbing it in. He has no divine right to appear in the 50th and if Moffat chose not to feature him then that is Moffat's choice. I would imagine however that JB would still have to be nice about the production even if he wasn't in it and this tweet paints him as a bit of a diva, it could be a tweet to make us believe that JB is pissed off at not being in the 50th when really....
Oh My, lets see how far down the rabbit hole goes.
PS. I am not campaigning for jack to appear in the 50th, I would lose no sleep over it either way, just thinking his comment is a little too harsh for what the BBC would allow, paticularly when JB is still so emeshed with Torchwood related stuff (books, appearances, New series neither progressing or entirely dead in the water, etc)
Comments
https://twitter.com/Team_Barrowman
"once and for all please stop saying I'm messing with u or lying, I am not in the 50th. I'm disappointed and all this just rubs it in. Jb"
Yep - Meglos was originally going to be the villain in The Lodger, with the joke being that he considered the Doctor to be his greatest foe only for the Doctor to have no recollection who or what a Meglos was.
( There would be no point building it if he could get back out again somehow)
Anyway- I think it is a plausible theory and it works ( for me, in my head anyway:p)
Maybe John Barowman will lend his voice only as the Face of Boe?
What?
You're saying that putting the Doctor into the Pandorica somehow caused the TARDIS to explode, however there's no dialogue at all in the episodes to support this. Rather, it's made clear by River that some outside force is controlling the TARDIS, forcing to a particular time and place - Amy's house on the day she started travelling with the Doctor, the time and date that the TARDIS explodes. As the Doctor says explictly, "Something drew the TARDIS to this particular date, and blew it up." It was the Doctor being trapped (not erased) in the Pandorica that sealed the universe's fate - rather than being the cause, he was the only one that could have prevented it.
The cause and effect is this:
TARDIS is sabotaged -> TARDIS explodes -> Reality starts to fracture -> Alliance is formed -> Alliance determines Doctor to be at fault -> Prison is created to confine him -> trap is constructed from Amy's memories -> Doctor is imprisoned -> Universe collapses except for epicentre -> Doctor is released -> Doctor uses stasis field to reboot the universe
What you describe is more like:
TARDIS explodes -> Reality starts to fracture -> Alliance is formed -> Alliance blames Doctor -> Prison is created to erase him from reality -> trap -> Doctor is imprisoned -> (?) -> TARDIS explodes -> Doctor released -> Doctor reboots universe
i.e. the right events in the wrong order.
It's clearly stated why the Pandorica has a stasis field, and that wasn't the reason given. Hell, even if it were the reason, they didn't give it any mechanism by which it could work. Amy didn't cease to exist because the Pandorica was closed around her, she was held in stasis and didn't age or degrade. No, River's saying that he won't be in the universe because he'll be on the wrong side of reality, not because he's in the Pandorica. Effectively, what's going to happen to him is exactly what happened to Rory, or the Angels, or Octavian's soldiers.
That is why it blows up and that is why the cracks happen.
Whether it was directly due to the pandorica, or in a round about way- from the event of piloting it into the tardis- this is the event which does it. I think I have seen enough evidence on screen to tell me the pandorica did this. I'm sure loads of people won't agree.
The other view- that someone somehow snuck in and blew it up- again somehow, doesn't work for me. Sure- someone/thing was behind getting the alliance together to put him in the pandorica, but I don't think they physically blew up the tardis themselves. Otherwise what is the point of getting an alliance together to put him in a prison when he could be in any other prison, abandoned on an asteroid, or just plain killed. Or they could simply blow up the tardis again. Whether he is in it or not. the doctor without a tardis might be considered prison sentence enough?
Also, if every tardis which blew up caused the universe to crack then it would have happened already- many times. Either in the time war, or any other occasion where a timelord's tardis was destroyed.
So - that's where I'm coming from.
If the Pandorica erased the Doctor from existence, then how the hell did he manage to pilot the Pandorica and it's restoration field into the TARDIS explosion from the inside?
I'd like to see some of that on-screen evidence. The Doctor himself states clearly and unambiguously that "Something drew the TARDIS to this particular date, and blew it up". There's no reason to assume that all TARDIS explosions are the same, or that the culprits knew the full consequences of their actions.
Your interpretation says that the events happened for precisely no reason, i.e. the events of the entire series, the destruction and recreation of the entire universe, just happened as a random quantum flux. It happened because it happened.
Whether it works for you or not is entirely beside the point. You have ignored plot points and on-screen explanations to come up with your theory. There could be an argument that the events needed to create the Big Bang 2 so that something else could slip through, by highjacking itself into Amy's memory. But that's just conjecture, and doesn't need to ignore anything.
When ever other TARDIS exploded, the universe was littered with Time Lords, and Gallifrey existed. There could be any number of plausible reasons that the explosions didn't tend the universe apart. Certainly a lot simpler than ignoring plot points to fit a theory together
I just lied.
My aim in arguing the toss is not to say that you can't have your own interpretation of events, or to insist that my interpretation is the 'right' one. It's great that people can have different views of the source material - I love a bit of speculation.
But the original point that was brought up was in regards to 'questions that people hope will be answered'. And of course, different interpretations offer different questions to be answered. For example, your version of events doesn't involve external influence at all - the TARDIS blew up because of the events caused by the TARDIS blowing up.
At the other extreme, we have the interpretation that the events were precipitated by external agents, but that nothing about them has been revealed to date. The adherents of this perspective don't think that the identity of the assailants and their motives have been approached at all.
I take the middle path - there's enough circumstantial and thematic evidence to tie the Silence to the crime, even if we don't know exactly what fate they're attempting to avert. And I'm less bothered about how they were able to pull it off.
It's the method where people are differing. I think there have been plenty of quotes put up in this thread- not even by me- plus 2 video links by someone which I believe help to support the Doctor being wiped from the universe throughout all of time once permanently sealed inside the pandorica. ( at the exact moment when he hit the tardis explosion - [because that also happens to be the exact moment the whole explosion emanates from too] this is why they do both happen at the exact same moment because they both cause each other).
I'm not saying it just happened because it happened, but that someone planned it that way. They planned for the alliance to make the Doctor get locked in the pandorica and for the cracks to happen.
It's the who and the why we might hopefully find out soon.
Well The Lodger is complete pants but that might have made it quite amusing on a fan in-joke level. Poor old Meglos ranting away while the Doctor stares blankly at it!!
Also, the date of the events of The Big Bang is not the date of the explosion.
The explosion happened on the date of Amy's wedding - the day the Doctor took her away, the night of River's conception, and also the date they all snapped back to when the universe was set to rights.
However, Amy was released from the Pandorica by her eight-year-old self, on the day that she was originally supposed to have met the Doctor, twelve years earlier. So that doesn't really fit.
I dont think this tweet actively rules JB out.
the reason being, the tweet is a little harsh sounding. particularly the bit about the fans rubbing it in. He has no divine right to appear in the 50th and if Moffat chose not to feature him then that is Moffat's choice. I would imagine however that JB would still have to be nice about the production even if he wasn't in it and this tweet paints him as a bit of a diva, it could be a tweet to make us believe that JB is pissed off at not being in the 50th when really....
Oh My, lets see how far down the rabbit hole goes.
PS. I am not campaigning for jack to appear in the 50th, I would lose no sleep over it either way, just thinking his comment is a little too harsh for what the BBC would allow, paticularly when JB is still so emeshed with Torchwood related stuff (books, appearances, New series neither progressing or entirely dead in the water, etc)