Hardly anyone believes a word Cameron says anymore. How many U-turns has he done so far? He'll just say whatever he thinks the latest focus group wants to hear.
I think you coud apply that accusation equally to Messers Miliband and Clegg.
It will be a referendum on politicians in all but name, the British people don't take EU elections seriously, so it doesn't matter whether their usual party wins or not. Everyone knows how the Westminster elite will react if UKIP either win or do really well. Its a great way to punish them.
Hardly anyone believes a word Cameron says anymore. How many U-turns has he done so far? He'll just say whatever he thinks the latest focus group wants to hear.
The average voter has no idea even what a U-turn is, let alone care.
However if Labour promise a referendum as well, he is screwed.
I doubt they will though, its all being sorted behind closed doors for Labour to win and avoid the EU debate at all.
Yep. This is my issue. No one to vote for, so I'm left voting for UKIP who in my eyes are homophobic, Chauvinistic and quite Xenophobic.
I want a referendum and if this is how we obtain one, then I'll hold my nose and vote for them.
i have considered voting UKIP.
but in the absence of any referendum it seems the best way to me of sending the message that i am not on board with the progressive EU integration model.
i don't want them to form a government. i just want to give the finger to the EU.
I feel sorry for Cameron over this EU nonsense (not losing sleep though :-)). He knows any withdrawal from the EU would be a disaster, but he's being pushed by some of his Party faithful, and pulled by Ukip, into an impossible position.
This is one of those rare occasions when I feel Dave is doing a good job, or at least making the best of a bad one.
Hardly anyone believes a word Cameron says anymore. How many U-turns has he done so far? He'll just say whatever he thinks the latest focus group wants to hear.
i think you do a disservice to cameron there. especially in the context of labour's currently policy being structured around anything gallup want that has a snappy name.
my reading of cameron's position on europe is that he is the least pro europe of the three. he doesn't like it and what it has become. but he also believes that as things are we are still better off in europe than out. he's fearful of a referendum because he thinks people will make a decision that is not in the best interests of the country.
YouGov is full of UKIP nutters>:( if you read the Opigram pages.
It will be interesting however if UKIP only make second as they increasingly claim to be drawing support from all three main parties. Second would actually be a failure for them and (hopefully) mark the turn of the tide.:)
i think you do a disservice to cameron there. especially in the context of labour's currently policy being structured around anything gallup want that has a snappy name.
my reading of cameron's position on europe is that he is the least pro europe of the three. he doesn't like it and what it has become. but he also believes that as things are we are still better off in europe than out. he's fearful of a referendum because he thinks people will make a decision that is not in the best interests of the country.
or not even about Europe. Most of the "no" referenda results UKIP rely on were actually about domestic issues or the case of France, opposition to the Anglo-German economic model.
YouGov is full of UKIP nutters>:( if you read the Opigram pages.
It will be interesting however if UKIP only make second as they increasingly claim to be drawing support from all three main parties. Second would actually be a failure for them and (hopefully) mark the turn of the tide.:)
Nice spinning - I think second would be a great result, although personally I would prefer to see them win.
I think they are drawing support from all party's otherwise we wouldn't have articles like this...
I feel sorry for Cameron over this EU nonsense (not losing sleep though :-)). He knows any withdrawal from the EU would be a disaster, but he's being pushed by some of his Party faithful, and pulled by Ukip, into an impossible position.
This is one of those rare occasions when I feel Dave is doing a good job, or at least making the best of a bad one.
Amusing you dismiss it as nonsense and trot out the usual 'withdrawal would be a disaster' rhetoric not to mention completly ignoring what the electorate might want or think.
Cameron I think genuinely wants EU reform and the UK to remain in the EU and has at least offered a referendum though I'm of the opinion he'd rather not have one. His problem is he isn't going to get that reform so I'm sure if the situation arises he'll find a way to circumnavigate having to hold a referendum.
Hardly anyone believes a word Cameron says anymore. How many U-turns has he done so far? He'll just say whatever he thinks the latest focus group wants to hear.
Amusing you dismiss it as nonsense and trot out the usual 'withdrawal would be a disaster' rhetoric not to mention completly ignoring what the electorate might want or think.
Cameron I think genuinely wants EU reform and the UK to remain in the EU and has at least offered a referendum though I'm of the opinion he'd rather not have one. His problem is he isn't going to get that reform so I'm sure if the situation arises he'll find a way to circumnavigate having to hold a referendum.
I don't believe that the majority of people (the electorate) do want out of the EU, and if the media were to present some balanced reporting on the matter, I think even those that might now would think again.
Farage is spouting nonsense, and a very biased and one-sided view of the EU. These days the media thrives on hyperbole and stirring up discontent, rather than presenting a full and balanced picture.
I think we should be looking at the way Germany is managing it's economy and infrastructure, and learn from them, and start making more effort to exploit the positive aspects of being in the EU, instead of getting distracted by the rhetoric and sophistry of Farage.
I don't believe that the majority of people (the electorate) do want out of the EU, and if the media were to present some balanced reporting on the matter, I think even those that might now would think again.
Only a referendum will tell you that and not one of the main party leaders wants one. As for the media I think it provides plenty of both pro and anti-EU reporting some of it balanced and some of it just states the views of those parts of the media be it pro or anti.
I don't believe that the majority of people (the electorate) do want out of the EU, and if the media were to present some balanced reporting on the matter, I think even those that might now would think again.
Farage is spouting nonsense, and a very biased and one-sided view of the EU. These days the media thrives on hyperbole and stirring up discontent, rather than presenting a full and balanced picture.
I think we should be looking at the way Germany is managing it's economy and infrastructure, and learn from them, and start making more effort to exploit the positive aspects of being in the EU, instead of getting distracted by the rhetoric and sophistry of Farage.
It’s clear that the UK will next time be sending even more UKIP MEPs to Brussels to fall out amongst themselves, max out on their expenses and broadly just bugger around for five years.
It is also clear that despite knowing what awaits them in the Euro’s, the Tory backbenchers will still go into semi-meltdown when the results do actually come in and the media start transposing shares of the vote into a general election context. The question is whether these backbenchers can then be prevented by their party from doing something really stupid that will make a Tory-led government’s re-election even more difficult.
It’s clear that the UK will next time be sending even more UKIP MEPs to Brussels to fall out amongst themselves, max out on their expenses and broadly just bugger around for five years.
It is also clear that despite knowing what awaits them in the Euro’s, the Tory backbenchers will still go into semi-meltdown when the results do actually come in and the media start transposing shares of the vote into a general election context. The question is whether these backbenchers can then be prevented by their party from doing something really stupid that will make a Tory-led government’s re-election even more difficult.
It does seem odd, but what else are the UKIP MEP's supposed to do other than completely take the piss out if the system?
But, if you want to talk about Euro sceptic meltdowns, look at whats happening with Germany's left party.
Only one of the front benches has a former coal miner on it.
Clue: it's not Labour.
I didn't know that. No wonder he's kept in the shadows by the heirarchy and in a minor cabinet position. I note he didn't stand on picket lines like Gove. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_McLoughlin
It's a pity Alan Johnson (postman) left. Tessa Jowell worked as a social worker.
"Remove almost all protection from employees" and "We will get rid of the minimum wage" - because the UK isn't already a low skill, zero hours economy...oh...
"Bring back grammar schools" - except that almost any academic study reveals the deleterious nature of selective education.
"We will reverse Scottish and Welsh devolution" - because that would be SO popular with the locals. Oh, and giving Monmouthshire back to England as well.
"The scrapping of maternity pay" - er, what century do we live in ?
"No chance of marriage for people who happen to be LGBTQ" - ditto
That's before we even get to the EU and immigration.
This issue divides left and right, but the way the EU is seen by the left and the right is polar opposites.
Er, that's the far left faction of a leftwing party - like the CPB here and the No2EU coalition. Die Linke's leaders Gregor Gysi, is a europhile - and Frau Wageknecht is not a leader. If there's any party with EU problems, it's the Conservatives.
Big business will not let us pull out the EU. They have profited too much from the cheap labour. In this I do feel sympathy for Cameron. He, and Labour before him, have to find spurious reasons not to have a referendum because big business won't let them.
Comments
I think you coud apply that accusation equally to Messers Miliband and Clegg.
The average voter has no idea even what a U-turn is, let alone care.
However if Labour promise a referendum as well, he is screwed.
I doubt they will though, its all being sorted behind closed doors for Labour to win and avoid the EU debate at all.
i have considered voting UKIP.
but in the absence of any referendum it seems the best way to me of sending the message that i am not on board with the progressive EU integration model.
i don't want them to form a government. i just want to give the finger to the EU.
This is one of those rare occasions when I feel Dave is doing a good job, or at least making the best of a bad one.
i think you do a disservice to cameron there. especially in the context of labour's currently policy being structured around anything gallup want that has a snappy name.
my reading of cameron's position on europe is that he is the least pro europe of the three. he doesn't like it and what it has become. but he also believes that as things are we are still better off in europe than out. he's fearful of a referendum because he thinks people will make a decision that is not in the best interests of the country.
YouGov is full of UKIP nutters>:( if you read the Opigram pages.
It will be interesting however if UKIP only make second as they increasingly claim to be drawing support from all three main parties. Second would actually be a failure for them and (hopefully) mark the turn of the tide.:)
or not even about Europe. Most of the "no" referenda results UKIP rely on were actually about domestic issues or the case of France, opposition to the Anglo-German economic model.
Nice spinning - I think second would be a great result, although personally I would prefer to see them win.
I think they are drawing support from all party's otherwise we wouldn't have articles like this...
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/an-open-letter-from-owen-jones-to-ukip-voters-9061968.html
Amusing you dismiss it as nonsense and trot out the usual 'withdrawal would be a disaster' rhetoric not to mention completly ignoring what the electorate might want or think.
Cameron I think genuinely wants EU reform and the UK to remain in the EU and has at least offered a referendum though I'm of the opinion he'd rather not have one. His problem is he isn't going to get that reform so I'm sure if the situation arises he'll find a way to circumnavigate having to hold a referendum.
So no different to any other politician then?
Totally agree. We need more politicians who are grounded in reality, not PR, focus groups or being SPADs.
I don't believe that the majority of people (the electorate) do want out of the EU, and if the media were to present some balanced reporting on the matter, I think even those that might now would think again.
Farage is spouting nonsense, and a very biased and one-sided view of the EU. These days the media thrives on hyperbole and stirring up discontent, rather than presenting a full and balanced picture.
I think we should be looking at the way Germany is managing it's economy and infrastructure, and learn from them, and start making more effort to exploit the positive aspects of being in the EU, instead of getting distracted by the rhetoric and sophistry of Farage.
Only a referendum will tell you that and not one of the main party leaders wants one. As for the media I think it provides plenty of both pro and anti-EU reporting some of it balanced and some of it just states the views of those parts of the media be it pro or anti.
And how many of those are there on Labour's front bench?
What nonsense is he spouting exactly?
The same as there are in the Tory cabinet (i.e. zero)
Only one of the front benches has a former coal miner on it.
Clue: it's not Labour.
It is also clear that despite knowing what awaits them in the Euro’s, the Tory backbenchers will still go into semi-meltdown when the results do actually come in and the media start transposing shares of the vote into a general election context. The question is whether these backbenchers can then be prevented by their party from doing something really stupid that will make a Tory-led government’s re-election even more difficult.
It does seem odd, but what else are the UKIP MEP's supposed to do other than completely take the piss out if the system?
But, if you want to talk about Euro sceptic meltdowns, look at whats happening with Germany's left party.
http://www.euractiv.com/eu-elections-2014/eurosceptic-election-manifesto-d-news-532795
This issue divides left and right, but the way the EU is seen by the left and the right is polar opposites.
I didn't know that. No wonder he's kept in the shadows by the heirarchy and in a minor cabinet position. I note he didn't stand on picket lines like Gove.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_McLoughlin
It's a pity Alan Johnson (postman) left. Tessa Jowell worked as a social worker.
"Remove almost all protection from employees" and "We will get rid of the minimum wage" - because the UK isn't already a low skill, zero hours economy...oh...
"Bring back grammar schools" - except that almost any academic study reveals the deleterious nature of selective education.
"We will reverse Scottish and Welsh devolution" - because that would be SO popular with the locals. Oh, and giving Monmouthshire back to England as well.
"The scrapping of maternity pay" - er, what century do we live in ?
"No chance of marriage for people who happen to be LGBTQ" - ditto
That's before we even get to the EU and immigration.