Bridget Bardot used to be gorgeous, but would you **** her now, cos I wouldn't?
You can't hang on to things or people forever, times move on and changes have to be made for the greater benefit of all concerned. AW is way past his use-by-date as a top manager - he no longer has an eye for a decent player, makes poor team selections and tactical decisions and is unable to motivate his players
Bridget Bardot used to be gorgeous, but would you **** her now, cos I wouldn't?
You can't hang on to things or people forever, times move on and changes have to be made for the greater benefit of all concerned. AW is way past his use-by-date as a top manager - he no longer has an eye for a decent player, makes poor team selections and tactical decisions and is unable to motivate his players
Lack of motivation last night was possibly the worst thing about it. Wenger has promised a better performance in the second leg but be honest, how it it be any worse?
I don't mean to disrespect your manager but my own view of Wenger has been for a long time that praise from the hacks and critics means as much to him as winning trophies. Say what you like about the criticism Wenger gets, he is still treated with absolute kid-gloves by the media compared to how others have been, are or will be in his position. The reason for this, I think, is this Fleet Street notion that Arsenal play 'idealistic' football.
I think that Wenger now has an obsession with winning 'his' way. The success of the club is perhaps now secondary to his hungry for being praised for winning trophies without spending a lot of money. Kudos over silverware. It's an ego thing.
The way Arsenal's expectations have been gradually but decisively lowered over the last decade has been frankly alarming. It's quite a feat that the man still has most neutrals claiming that Arsenal would be 'mad' for getting rid of him.
He's taken you form a side regularly challenging for the title to a side regularly getting in the top three, to a side regularly getting in the top four, to a side that'll now, in my view, struggle to get in the top four. Perhaps even fifth will be a step too far this season, depending on how other teams do.
But the thing isn't there isn't THAT much wrong with Arsenal. I know people say you need 'five or six' decent new players. But you won't eliminate all the dross from every club. You can win titles with a lot of average players. It just needs some money spent in certain areas instead of constant scrimping in a desperate attempt to play the 'Look at how little I spent and how much I've won - aren't I fantastic!' game.
Not spending money and not winning anything is...well...not really much, is it. Someone new would breathe new life into the club. Shake things up a bit.
You don't want a situation at Chelsea where if you lose a game the manager gets fired, but at the same time never-ending patience isn't a virtue.
After Arsenal's unbeaten league season in 2003-04, I bet no Arsenal fan would have imagined that eight years later they would still be waiting for another title and only one other trophy would have been won since then.
So you'd still want Pep in charge if he won you nothing for 7 years? Yeah right. Contrary to popular belief finishing in the top 4 isn't what any club should be aiming for. It isn't a trophy, it just means you are the best of the also rans. As for the comparison with Villa I'm speechless, it has nothing to do with anything at all.
Of course the Villa comparison in relevant . It could easily happen to you . You're unlikely to be playing anywhere near as good football with a new manager ( unless it's Pep ) and then when your playing safe , boring football are you guaranteed to get any higher than fourth ?? Are you really going to leapfrog Spurs somehow Nevermind City and United .
Oh and yes , if Pep stayed and we continued to play as we have done if he happy with second or third position every season - no problem !
Of course the Villa comparison in relevant . It could easily happen to you . You're unlikely to be playing anywhere near as good football with a new manager ( unless it's Pep ) and then when your playing safe , boring football are you guaranteed to get any higher than fourth ?? Are you really going to leapfrog Spurs somehow Nevermind City and United .
Oh and yes , if Pep stayed and we continued to play as we have done if he happy with second or third position every season - no problem !
I think most Arsenal fans would prefer substance over style, and little of real substance has been achieved in recent years.
To have both is great, and no doubt better to be winners with style than without. You're lucky in that Barcelona have been providing both style and substance for a number of years.
Although your last paragrah kind of confirms what I thought, that you prefer style over substance. That in my view makes you rather unusual and why many supporters often can't tune in with your thoughts.
I think most Arsenal fans would prefer substance over style, and little of real substance has been achieved in recent years.
To have both is great, and no doubt better to be winners with style than without. You're lucky in that Barcelona have been providing both style and substance for a number of years.
Although your last paragrah kind of confirms what I thought, that you prefer style over substance. That in my view makes you rather unusual and why many supporters often can't tune in with your thoughts.
I would agree with your last point , maybe I am rather unique and it would explain a few things .
Winning certainly isn't THAT important to me . I have supported Barca for absolute ages and we have been through some very dark times I can tell you .
I don't mean to disrespect your manager but my own view of Wenger has been for a long time that praise from the hacks and critics means as much to him as winning trophies. Say what you like about the criticism Wenger gets, he is still treated with absolute kid-gloves by the media compared to how others have been, are or will be in his position. The reason for this, I think, is this Fleet Street notion that Arsenal play 'idealistic' football.
I think that Wenger now has an obsession with winning 'his' way. The success of the club is perhaps now secondary to his hungry for being praised for winning trophies without spending a lot of money. Kudos over silverware. It's an ego thing.
The way Arsenal's expectations have been gradually but decisively lowered over the last decade has been frankly alarming. It's quite a feat that the man still has most neutrals claiming that Arsenal would be 'mad' for getting rid of him.
He's taken you form a side regularly challenging for the title to a side regularly getting in the top three, to a side regularly getting in the top four, to a side that'll now, in my view, struggle to get in the top four. Perhaps even fifth will be a step too far this season, depending on how other teams do.
But the thing isn't there isn't THAT much wrong with Arsenal. I know people say you need 'five or six' decent new players. But you won't eliminate all the dross from every club. You can win titles with a lot of average players. It just needs some money spent in certain areas instead of constant scrimping in a desperate attempt to play the 'Look at how little I spent and how much I've won - aren't I fantastic!' game.
Not spending money and not winning anything is...well...not really much, is it. Someone new would breathe new life into the club. Shake things up a bit.
You don't want a situation at Chelsea where if you lose a game the manager gets fired, but at the same time never-ending patience isn't a virtue.
Thats how I see it too. Wenger believes his own spin (which is considerable) and the media have been afraid to criticise him in the past.
Arsenal last night weren't quite as bad as portrayed, at least not individually. They were up against a far better side who played a different game and were technically superior. The forwards battled through Arsenal's defence often one against three; and they never gave up. Wenger condemned his side's performance, but he should look at his own contribution.
Arsenal don't perform like a team, collectively they have no fighting spirit. You get the impression they are all on tenterhooks because of Wenger's poor reactions to failure. I wonder how many Arsenal players would perform better elsewhere in a different team with a different manager.
I have a nasty feeling we are due our Febeuary collapse and will be kicked out of the FA Cup on Saturday and wind up finishing 7th-8th in the table
If it's any consolation (which it probably isn't) we are feeling pretty much the same in West London. Either Chelsea or Arsenal are not going to be playing Champions League next season..perhaps neither of us will make it.
From an outsiders point of view, Wenger does seem to be stubborn. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've read, there is money avaiable for him to spend ? Perhaps not hundreds of millions, but certainly enough to pick up some useful additions. He appears to be determined to follow his principles, but unwilling to admit that despite his obvious skills, he was also very lucky. He found some fantastic youngsters, he turned some good players into great ones. But that just doesn't happen year in, year out, for ever.
He had the Midas touch when it came to picking up players, that seems to have deserted him. Sometimes you have to just go with the flow, swallow your pride and open the chequebook.
You think someone like Hiddink would work under the current financial constraints?
It's time for Stan to put up or push off.
The thing is even if you're happy enough to lose all your free flowing football AND went and got Jose AND gave him £300 milliont to spend - there is no guarantee that you're going to be able to out-do City and United IMHO .
The thing is even if you're happy enough to lose all your free flowing football AND went and got Jose AND gave him £300 milliont to spend - there is no guarantee that you're going to be able to out-do City and United IMHO .
I don't want to lose Wenger.
What we need is more money available for transfers and wages (a LOT more money) - and someone to help and encourage him to spend it.
A few thoughts...Arsenal finished as a club? I think not. You obviously weren't around in the 70s! I hate to think what some fans on here would have thought of it all back then.
As for the beautiful football....that's a myth. Yeah in our pomp with Bergkamp, Henry, Pires then yes we were bloody good to watch but save the odd game here and there it's really been slow and tedious unless you like constant sideways and back passing.
Wenger will play the same way regardless...though apart from the debacle at the Nou Camp last season where he seemed to be caught between two stools and it went horribly wrong. Last night there was no plan B, no making provisions for the state of the pitch...still the same old same old.
Wenger just thought we would score a goal and everything would be alright. There needs to be a big shake up in the summer both on the playing and coaching side.
If anything good is going to come of this then it might be, just might be the penny has finally dropped and Wenger now realises that big changes are required. I won't hold my breath though on that.
You think someone like Hiddink would work under the current financial constraints?
It's time for Stan to put up or push off.
Honestly, do you know what you are talking about?
We are the FIFTH richest club in the world. We are extremely profitable (more so than any other premiership club) and our owners take NOTHING out of the business. It is all retained in the club.
Why on earth should any owner (and if you think Usmanov would be any different from Kroenke then you really are living in dreamland) invest money in the club when we don't even spend what the business generates at the moment? To be honest I would be more worried that Usmanov would start to take money out of the club.
The truth is the owners do not restrict Wenger. If you believe he is working on a shoestring then explain to me why our wage bill is £40m per annum more than Spurs. Explain to me why we happily continue to waste £60,000 each week on a basket case like Diaby? Surely such a tight fisted board would have stopped that immediately and, believe me, Diaby is far from being the only one.
The truth is that the current situation is down to one person ... Wenger who has had far too much power for far too long. The sooner he goes the sooner we stand a chance of becoming competitive again.
Imagine if Arsenal do finish fourth -- Wenger would be all smiles, thinking everything's alright. The impression I get from the club is the board care more about solidifying a top four spot then actually winning something.
A few thoughts...Arsenal finished as a club? I think not. You obviously weren't around in the 70s! I hate to think what some fans on here would have thought of it all back then.
As for the beautiful football....that's a myth. Yeah in our pomp with Bergkamp, Henry, Pires then yes we were bloody good to watch but save the odd game here and there it's really been slow and tedious unless you like constant sideways and back passing.
Wenger will play the same way regardless...though apart from the debacle at the Nou Camp last season where he seemed to be caught between two stools and it went horribly wrong. Last night there was no plan B, no making provisions for the state of the pitch...still the same old same old.
Wenger just thought we would score a goal and everything would be alright. There needs to be a big shake up in the summer both on the playing and coaching side.
If anything good is going to come of this then it might be, just might be the penny has finally dropped and Wenger now realises that big changes are required. I won't hold my breath though on that.
It won't happen. The only way we start moving forward again is when he goes.
It's all so stale and he has no idea how to change it..
He's had 16 years, thats incredible in management terms and he will rightly be looked upon as a visionary in his time.
His time though is not 2012. He MUST go at the end of the season at the latest.
Nice to have one of the few remaining members of the Arsene Knows brigade back in today as well.
Imagine if Arsenal do finish fourth -- Wenger would be all smiles, thinking everything's alright. The impression I get is the club is the board care more about solidifying a top four spot then actually winning something.
It's sad that Arsenal's ambition has now been dampened into 'making do'. I think that's the legacy of Wenger's reign these last few years.
Doing the absolute minimum is now considered a great season. It isn't beyond memory of even young fans to recall a time when finishing second would be considered disappointing.
I thought in this season of lows we couldnt get any lower - then last night happened. For me, it was worse than the 8-2 or the loss to Blackburn. Milan are a good side but we made them look a lot better than they are.
As for Wenger, I think football has progressed and he hasn't. I love him for all he's done for the club and he'll always be a legend in my eyes but we need to freshen things up with new ideas and new players. The board must either show some ambition and money or go.
A few thoughts...Arsenal finished as a club? I think not. You obviously weren't around in the 70s! I hate to think what some fans on here would have thought of it all back then.
.
I think we can take that particular comment with a large pinch of salt. Like you I was around in the 70's when a cup run and finishing in the top half was the norm. Back then it cost peanuts to get in and we had players we can relate to. Fast forward 30 odd years and we're being royally fleeced to watch a distinctly average football. I'll go to the spurs game as I've paid for my ticket but no more after that until there's change at board and managerial level. Granted it needs many thousands to do the same but eating into their finances is the only language those clowns understand.
I read on another forum Arsenal fans turning on each other on the train back to the airport. I'm hearing this more and more often and I dread to think what might happen Sunday week if it goes pearshaped.:mad:
I'll go to the spurs game as I've paid for my ticket but no more after that until there's change at board and managerial level. Granted it needs many thousands to do the same but eating into their finances is the only language those clowns understand.
Yes, this really is the only way. However much loyalty the board might have to Wenger, the moment attendances and season ticket sales begin to seriously decline he'll be out on his ass ... and it won't be a moment too soon.
Comments
I think that part of his game is bloody awful - and puts us in trouble regularly.
This, top post sir.
Lack of motivation last night was possibly the worst thing about it. Wenger has promised a better performance in the second leg but be honest, how it it be any worse?
I think that Wenger now has an obsession with winning 'his' way. The success of the club is perhaps now secondary to his hungry for being praised for winning trophies without spending a lot of money. Kudos over silverware. It's an ego thing.
The way Arsenal's expectations have been gradually but decisively lowered over the last decade has been frankly alarming. It's quite a feat that the man still has most neutrals claiming that Arsenal would be 'mad' for getting rid of him.
He's taken you form a side regularly challenging for the title to a side regularly getting in the top three, to a side regularly getting in the top four, to a side that'll now, in my view, struggle to get in the top four. Perhaps even fifth will be a step too far this season, depending on how other teams do.
But the thing isn't there isn't THAT much wrong with Arsenal. I know people say you need 'five or six' decent new players. But you won't eliminate all the dross from every club. You can win titles with a lot of average players. It just needs some money spent in certain areas instead of constant scrimping in a desperate attempt to play the 'Look at how little I spent and how much I've won - aren't I fantastic!' game.
Not spending money and not winning anything is...well...not really much, is it. Someone new would breathe new life into the club. Shake things up a bit.
You don't want a situation at Chelsea where if you lose a game the manager gets fired, but at the same time never-ending patience isn't a virtue.
Arsenal as a club is totally finished. Once van persie leaves and who can blame we will become a middle table club.
2003 seems like a different era now doesn't it?
Of course the Villa comparison in relevant . It could easily happen to you . You're unlikely to be playing anywhere near as good football with a new manager ( unless it's Pep ) and then when your playing safe , boring football are you guaranteed to get any higher than fourth ?? Are you really going to leapfrog Spurs somehow Nevermind City and United .
Oh and yes , if Pep stayed and we continued to play as we have done if he happy with second or third position every season - no problem !
I think most Arsenal fans would prefer substance over style, and little of real substance has been achieved in recent years.
To have both is great, and no doubt better to be winners with style than without. You're lucky in that Barcelona have been providing both style and substance for a number of years.
Although your last paragrah kind of confirms what I thought, that you prefer style over substance. That in my view makes you rather unusual and why many supporters often can't tune in with your thoughts.
I would agree with your last point , maybe I am rather unique and it would explain a few things .
Winning certainly isn't THAT important to me . I have supported Barca for absolute ages and we have been through some very dark times I can tell you .
Thats how I see it too. Wenger believes his own spin (which is considerable) and the media have been afraid to criticise him in the past.
Arsenal last night weren't quite as bad as portrayed, at least not individually. They were up against a far better side who played a different game and were technically superior. The forwards battled through Arsenal's defence often one against three; and they never gave up. Wenger condemned his side's performance, but he should look at his own contribution.
Arsenal don't perform like a team, collectively they have no fighting spirit. You get the impression they are all on tenterhooks because of Wenger's poor reactions to failure. I wonder how many Arsenal players would perform better elsewhere in a different team with a different manager.
If it's any consolation (which it probably isn't) we are feeling pretty much the same in West London. Either Chelsea or Arsenal are not going to be playing Champions League next season..perhaps neither of us will make it.
From an outsiders point of view, Wenger does seem to be stubborn. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've read, there is money avaiable for him to spend ? Perhaps not hundreds of millions, but certainly enough to pick up some useful additions. He appears to be determined to follow his principles, but unwilling to admit that despite his obvious skills, he was also very lucky. He found some fantastic youngsters, he turned some good players into great ones. But that just doesn't happen year in, year out, for ever.
He had the Midas touch when it came to picking up players, that seems to have deserted him. Sometimes you have to just go with the flow, swallow your pride and open the chequebook.
You think someone like Hiddink would work under the current financial constraints?
It's time for Stan to put up or push off.
The thing is even if you're happy enough to lose all your free flowing football AND went and got Jose AND gave him £300 milliont to spend - there is no guarantee that you're going to be able to out-do City and United IMHO .
I don't want to lose Wenger.
What we need is more money available for transfers and wages (a LOT more money) - and someone to help and encourage him to spend it.
As for the beautiful football....that's a myth. Yeah in our pomp with Bergkamp, Henry, Pires then yes we were bloody good to watch but save the odd game here and there it's really been slow and tedious unless you like constant sideways and back passing.
Wenger will play the same way regardless...though apart from the debacle at the Nou Camp last season where he seemed to be caught between two stools and it went horribly wrong. Last night there was no plan B, no making provisions for the state of the pitch...still the same old same old.
Wenger just thought we would score a goal and everything would be alright. There needs to be a big shake up in the summer both on the playing and coaching side.
If anything good is going to come of this then it might be, just might be the penny has finally dropped and Wenger now realises that big changes are required. I won't hold my breath though on that.
Honestly, do you know what you are talking about?
We are the FIFTH richest club in the world. We are extremely profitable (more so than any other premiership club) and our owners take NOTHING out of the business. It is all retained in the club.
Why on earth should any owner (and if you think Usmanov would be any different from Kroenke then you really are living in dreamland) invest money in the club when we don't even spend what the business generates at the moment? To be honest I would be more worried that Usmanov would start to take money out of the club.
The truth is the owners do not restrict Wenger. If you believe he is working on a shoestring then explain to me why our wage bill is £40m per annum more than Spurs. Explain to me why we happily continue to waste £60,000 each week on a basket case like Diaby? Surely such a tight fisted board would have stopped that immediately and, believe me, Diaby is far from being the only one.
The truth is that the current situation is down to one person ... Wenger who has had far too much power for far too long. The sooner he goes the sooner we stand a chance of becoming competitive again.
It won't happen. The only way we start moving forward again is when he goes.
It's all so stale and he has no idea how to change it..
He's had 16 years, thats incredible in management terms and he will rightly be looked upon as a visionary in his time.
His time though is not 2012. He MUST go at the end of the season at the latest.
Nice to have one of the few remaining members of the Arsene Knows brigade back in today as well.
It's sad that Arsenal's ambition has now been dampened into 'making do'. I think that's the legacy of Wenger's reign these last few years.
Doing the absolute minimum is now considered a great season. It isn't beyond memory of even young fans to recall a time when finishing second would be considered disappointing.
As for Wenger, I think football has progressed and he hasn't. I love him for all he's done for the club and he'll always be a legend in my eyes but we need to freshen things up with new ideas and new players. The board must either show some ambition and money or go.
I think we can take that particular comment with a large pinch of salt. Like you I was around in the 70's when a cup run and finishing in the top half was the norm. Back then it cost peanuts to get in and we had players we can relate to. Fast forward 30 odd years and we're being royally fleeced to watch a distinctly average football. I'll go to the spurs game as I've paid for my ticket but no more after that until there's change at board and managerial level. Granted it needs many thousands to do the same but eating into their finances is the only language those clowns understand.
I read on another forum Arsenal fans turning on each other on the train back to the airport. I'm hearing this more and more often and I dread to think what might happen Sunday week if it goes pearshaped.:mad:
Yes, this really is the only way. However much loyalty the board might have to Wenger, the moment attendances and season ticket sales begin to seriously decline he'll be out on his ass ... and it won't be a moment too soon.