How is it over my head? Sorry if I've missed something. If I'm so thick perhaps explain what is over my head. Perhaps realise that your comments, if ironic might not be obvious to all.
Like I said, I don't agree with him, but do you really think saying things like 'ramming it down out throats' helps?
When Whitney started her career, she was portrayed as a very talented girl next door type although the truth was very different. She had a squeaky clean image but it was noticed her very close friendship with her PR assistant could be viewed as a lesbian relationship.
Being brought up in such a well known musical family, any scandal would reflect on her family. It is very different now as drug taking and being gay is accepted as only relevant to those who choose to be gay in the entertainment industry.
I thought that this and her drug taking at that early stage in her career was out there and it was before she married Bobby Brown. He became her enabler and partner not only in her personal life but in her drug addiction too.
Why it needed saying again at this sad time by Peter Tatchell is his agenda, did he wish to shock with this very old information, who knows why he thought it necessary to bring it to light and after that Whitney hadnt had any other female partners (that I know of) so it could have been a one off love affair.
Poor Whitney, she could have had it all.
Perhaps she was bisexual - women's sexuality can be much wider than mens and I have known a lot of women, some of them married now or with boyfriends, who have also had strong attraction and feelings for another woman.
Peter Tatchell maybe thought there was no really good time to talk about Whitney's possible preference for women, so decided to do it while it was current. And I dispute that he has only one agenda - he is vocal in his support for women's rights (and human rights in general) as well as animal rights.
Perhaps she was bisexual - women's sexuality can be much wider than mens and I have known a lot of women, some of them married now or with boyfriends, who have also had strong attraction and feelings for another woman.
Peter Tatchell maybe thought there was no really good time to talk about Whitney's possible preference for women, so decided to do it while it was current. And I dispute that he has only one agenda - he is vocal in his support for women's rights (and human rights in general) as well as animal rights.
But a canny publicist all the same. Perhaps he should have waited until after the funeral as a token of respect. He is a fine campaigner but needs to act in a more measured way.
I started a thread on this in GD but it got a bit derailed.
The bottom line is she had a 13 year old daughter whom is in turmoil and in ill health because of her mothers tragic demise.
As someone that has campaigned for people who have been through hell I find it insensitive Tatchell would not consider those Whitney has left behind before speculating about the girls mothers sexuality and suggest the marriage to her father was a smoke screen.
Should he work to make sure persons who are gay can speak out and not have to hide their true self, Yes. Should he use a tragic death of a mother to do this, No.
The most important thing at the moment is the womans family, they should be afforded privacy and compassion and not have people speculating behind their backs and that of their deceased relative on why she has ended up dead.
People say their is nothing wrong with being gay, no 5hit! but we are talking about a 13 year old girl who will be more than confused and hurt to hear her only just dead mother had lived a lie to her.
If I was them and found out what this guy had said I would be disgusted.
I started a thread on this in GD but it got a bit derailed.
The bottom line is she had a 13 year old daughter whom is in turmoil and in ill health because of her mothers tragic demise.
As someone that has campaigned for people who have been through hell I find it insensitive Tatchell would not consider those Whitney has left behind before speculating about the girls mothers sexuality and suggest the marriage to her father was a smoke screen.
Should he work to make sure persons who are gay can speak out and not have to hide their true self, Yes. Should he use a tragic death of a mother to do this, No.
The most important thing at the moment is the womans family, they should be afforded privacy and compassion and not have people speculating behind their backs and that of their deceased relative on why she has ended up dead.
People say their is nothing wrong with being gay, no 5hit! but we are talking about a 13 year old girl who will be more than confused and hurt to hear her only just dead mother had lived a lie to her.
If I was them and found out what this guy had said I would be disgusted.
Totally agree with you ladymoanalot, but Bobby Kristina is 18 not 13, and in fairness, her own father has put it out there (his autobiography) that he believes Whitney married him to cover her sexuality so I expect Bobbi does know of the rumours......
but to add to the young girls grief by publically implying that she was conceived behind a smokescreen of her mother hiding her sexuality is unforgivable
Totally agree with you ladymoanalot, but Bobby Kristina is 18 not 13, and in fairness, her own father has put it out there (his autobiography) that he believes Whitney married him to cover her sexuality so I expect Bobbi does know of the rumours......
but to add to the young girls grief by publically implying that she was conceived behind a smokescreen of her mother hiding her sexuality is unforgivable
Ahh right. I am sure I read she was 13. I thought she looked a mature 13!!:)
How is it over my head? Sorry if I've missed something. If I'm so thick perhaps explain what is over my head. Perhaps realise that your comments, if ironic might not be obvious to all.
Like I said, I don't agree with him, but do you really think saying things like 'ramming it down out throats' helps?
Well to put fuel to the fire I have a story I've known for many years - probably 20 at least. A close friend of mine met someone who does make-up. She was doing Whitneys make-up before a gig and a very well know actress came in to the room and just straddled Whitney and kissed her leaving nothing to the imagination. The well known actress was Demi Moore. The make-up artist was totally shocked but as she had seen similar things before she just got on with it.
I'm not a troll and not making this up. I was told this sooooo long ago that I've always regarded Whitney as at least bi and the same goes for Demi
Whos up for a public outing of Peter Tachell as a closet straight guy? The press release could read
"Tatchell was at his happiest with his first girlfriend at school in the 60's but was pressured into becoming a gay and it was downhill from then on. I met Peter and his female partner in the 60's when he spoke at a fundraiser in support of marriage and family".
I guess so. Its just you get so many comments like that on gay related threads it can be hard to distinguish the jokes from real points of view. It helps if the poster indicates it is a joke. Guess I was having a thick moment.
No they dont and this would of been the mid 80's and there is no way that her coming out then would of been welcomed with open arms.
She would of lost everything.
There were alot of openly gay stars in the 80s' and being gay did not stop their popularity at all.
I actually think that being gay was more accepted in the 80s' than it is now. These days people make such an issue of it whereas in the 80s' it was like 'you're gay! So what?'
There were alot of openly gay stars in the 80s' and being gay did not stop their popularity at all.
I actually think that being gay was more accepted in the 80s' than it is now. These days people make such an issue of it whereas in the 80s' it was like 'you're gay! So what?'
Interesting you say that. Just to add a different take on the 80s, my experience wasn't like you describe. The community where I grew up seemed to have a problem with it. People like Julian Clary and gay popstars where liked, but even my family would make comments like 'he's funny even though he is a poof' or 'shame so and so is a queer'. It might not have effected people's careers but I think for the average gay person like me, you were still considered a 'weirdo'. I just couldn't be honest back then and didn't come out until 1994 and living in London. That same community I grew up in is much more open to it these days.
Whos up for a public outing of Peter Tachell as a closet straight guy? The press release could read
"Tatchell was at his happiest with his first girlfriend at school in the 60's but was pressured into becoming a gay and it was downhill from then on. I met Peter and his female partner in the 60's when he spoke at a fundraiser in support of marriage and family".
This is nonsensical. The point Tatchell is making is that Whitney may not have been a drug and alcohol addict if she'd been allowed to live freely as a lesbian and she would have been much happier for it.
As far as we know Tatchell isn't drug or alcohol dependant.
Regarding outing her, doubts over her sexuality are common knowledge. Her own husband outed her in his autobiography. Tatchell was providing a reason for her drug addiction and death not outing her.
There's been suggestions that Peter Tatchell's outing of Whitney is disrespectful, and counter suggestions that it can't be because being a lesbian is nothing to be ashamed of. I do think that Tatchell had no respect for her dignity, but this is not to do with what her sexuality was.
Tatchell states that Whitney Houston was gay and that the reason for her addiction, and ultimately the cause of her death was her denial of this. He says that denying your sexuality is always wrong and persons involved with denying a persons sexuality are also always wrong, that is, society must never tolerate this.
I've worked with drug addicts and there is rarely a definitive reason for them taking to drugs. Yes,they will often blame circumstances of some kind ,but on closer investigation they mostly admit they just did it because it felt good and because their peers were using. No big dramatic reason....just that it felt good and heightened their pleasure at the start. So while people can blame this, that and the other, the fact remains that there may never have been any reason for her drug use,other than sharing Brown's habit to please him.
Tatchell is not an expert on drug addiction, nor did he know Houston personally. The reasons for her addiction are personal, and individual to her.
I also dispute the idea that every gay person should be open about their relationships. It would benefit most of them probably, but from my own experience, there are a few for whom self- accepatance and secrecy with all but very few people is the best you can hope for. Every person reacts to their sexuality in their own way. But, for Tatchell, the idea that no one should keep their sexuality under wraps is non negotiable, although again I don't think he is an authority on the subject.
If Whitney was gay, she, for her own individual reasons did not want this to be made public. That wish should be respected. Tatchell was essentially giving critiscism of her life style, saying she was wrong, her friends and family were wrong and their actions must not be tolerated. His timing was not bad, it was deliberate. This is why I think he has no respect for her dignity, and was using the situation to further his own agenda.
I appreciate what you are saying, and I'm not a Tatchell fan but feel I need to defend him here. When people stop making comments like " I dont mind mind what they get up to in their private lives, its when they start ramming it down your throat ", and we live in a world where people are accepted for who they are then maybe him and other activists won't need to be so vocal.
As a gay man his approach wouldn't be mine, but I understand why he does it.
Anyway rant over, back to the topic. Whatever my views on Peter Tatchell, I still don't think it was his place to make the comment about Whitney.
best
If it is true then the point is that damage is still being done to people under pressure to conceal their true sexuality. He's offering a possible reason why a successful invididual whom many felt to be talented went so badly off the rails - and I think the point is as ever to encourage those who are gay to be true to themselves despite it being a scary thing to do for some of them.
I can understand why some feel that Tatchell is speaking out of turn but he became a gay activist after his own sexuality was used against him to stop him becoming an MP (that's a member of parlament - a politician to you American folks on here) and I feel that his motivation is as explained above - a lot of gay activism is encouraging gays and lesbians not damage themselves by trying to pretend they are something they are not and to stop others from hurting them because of their own fear and ignorance. If that's 'ramming something down your throat' then I don't have an awful lot of time for you. I think people dislike anyone who tries to do something politicially for other people hence the hate for the likes of Bono and Bob Geldof - these people have their faults but at least they try and that's a lot more difficult then sitting on your bum and slinging arrows that who actually care about something enough to try make things better.
Comments
How is it over my head? Sorry if I've missed something. If I'm so thick perhaps explain what is over my head. Perhaps realise that your comments, if ironic might not be obvious to all.
Like I said, I don't agree with him, but do you really think saying things like 'ramming it down out throats' helps?
Being brought up in such a well known musical family, any scandal would reflect on her family. It is very different now as drug taking and being gay is accepted as only relevant to those who choose to be gay in the entertainment industry.
I thought that this and her drug taking at that early stage in her career was out there and it was before she married Bobby Brown. He became her enabler and partner not only in her personal life but in her drug addiction too.
Why it needed saying again at this sad time by Peter Tatchell is his agenda, did he wish to shock with this very old information, who knows why he thought it necessary to bring it to light and after that Whitney hadnt had any other female partners (that I know of) so it could have been a one off love affair.
Poor Whitney, she could have had it all.
Peter Tatchell maybe thought there was no really good time to talk about Whitney's possible preference for women, so decided to do it while it was current. And I dispute that he has only one agenda - he is vocal in his support for women's rights (and human rights in general) as well as animal rights.
But a canny publicist all the same. Perhaps he should have waited until after the funeral as a token of respect. He is a fine campaigner but needs to act in a more measured way.
The bottom line is she had a 13 year old daughter whom is in turmoil and in ill health because of her mothers tragic demise.
As someone that has campaigned for people who have been through hell I find it insensitive Tatchell would not consider those Whitney has left behind before speculating about the girls mothers sexuality and suggest the marriage to her father was a smoke screen.
Should he work to make sure persons who are gay can speak out and not have to hide their true self, Yes. Should he use a tragic death of a mother to do this, No.
The most important thing at the moment is the womans family, they should be afforded privacy and compassion and not have people speculating behind their backs and that of their deceased relative on why she has ended up dead.
People say their is nothing wrong with being gay, no 5hit! but we are talking about a 13 year old girl who will be more than confused and hurt to hear her only just dead mother had lived a lie to her.
If I was them and found out what this guy had said I would be disgusted.
Totally agree with you ladymoanalot, but Bobby Kristina is 18 not 13, and in fairness, her own father has put it out there (his autobiography) that he believes Whitney married him to cover her sexuality so I expect Bobbi does know of the rumours......
but to add to the young girls grief by publically implying that she was conceived behind a smokescreen of her mother hiding her sexuality is unforgivable
Ahh right. I am sure I read she was 13. I thought she looked a mature 13!!:)
I think it was meant as a joke.
...society wouldn't 'allow' her to, that is what Peter was trying to say, hence her unhappiness.:o
I think society disapprove of taking drugs more so than being gay.
if SHE felt that society denied her that right in life, who the hell is Tatchell to deny her the right in death?!!
Quite. & as previous posters have mentioned, her daughter is hugely unstable and doesn't need Tatchell raking all this up.
I'm not a troll and not making this up. I was told this sooooo long ago that I've always regarded Whitney as at least bi and the same goes for Demi
"Tatchell was at his happiest with his first girlfriend at school in the 60's but was pressured into becoming a gay and it was downhill from then on. I met Peter and his female partner in the 60's when he spoke at a fundraiser in support of marriage and family".
It's almost a race to see who can get there first and say: "Well, I knew all along."
I doubt whether these particular 'demons' were the primary driving force that led to her death, if at all.
I guess so. Its just you get so many comments like that on gay related threads it can be hard to distinguish the jokes from real points of view. It helps if the poster indicates it is a joke. Guess I was having a thick moment.
No they dont and this would of been the mid 80's and there is no way that her coming out then would of been welcomed with open arms.
She would of lost everything.
There were alot of openly gay stars in the 80s' and being gay did not stop their popularity at all.
I actually think that being gay was more accepted in the 80s' than it is now. These days people make such an issue of it whereas in the 80s' it was like 'you're gay! So what?'
Interesting you say that. Just to add a different take on the 80s, my experience wasn't like you describe. The community where I grew up seemed to have a problem with it. People like Julian Clary and gay popstars where liked, but even my family would make comments like 'he's funny even though he is a poof' or 'shame so and so is a queer'. It might not have effected people's careers but I think for the average gay person like me, you were still considered a 'weirdo'. I just couldn't be honest back then and didn't come out until 1994 and living in London. That same community I grew up in is much more open to it these days.
This is nonsensical. The point Tatchell is making is that Whitney may not have been a drug and alcohol addict if she'd been allowed to live freely as a lesbian and she would have been much happier for it.
As far as we know Tatchell isn't drug or alcohol dependant.
Regarding outing her, doubts over her sexuality are common knowledge. Her own husband outed her in his autobiography. Tatchell was providing a reason for her drug addiction and death not outing her.
Tatchell states that Whitney Houston was gay and that the reason for her addiction, and ultimately the cause of her death was her denial of this. He says that denying your sexuality is always wrong and persons involved with denying a persons sexuality are also always wrong, that is, society must never tolerate this.
However I agree with this post:
Tatchell is not an expert on drug addiction, nor did he know Houston personally. The reasons for her addiction are personal, and individual to her.
I also dispute the idea that every gay person should be open about their relationships. It would benefit most of them probably, but from my own experience, there are a few for whom self- accepatance and secrecy with all but very few people is the best you can hope for. Every person reacts to their sexuality in their own way. But, for Tatchell, the idea that no one should keep their sexuality under wraps is non negotiable, although again I don't think he is an authority on the subject.
If Whitney was gay, she, for her own individual reasons did not want this to be made public. That wish should be respected. Tatchell was essentially giving critiscism of her life style, saying she was wrong, her friends and family were wrong and their actions must not be tolerated. His timing was not bad, it was deliberate. This is why I think he has no respect for her dignity, and was using the situation to further his own agenda.
If it is true then the point is that damage is still being done to people under pressure to conceal their true sexuality. He's offering a possible reason why a successful invididual whom many felt to be talented went so badly off the rails - and I think the point is as ever to encourage those who are gay to be true to themselves despite it being a scary thing to do for some of them.
I can understand why some feel that Tatchell is speaking out of turn but he became a gay activist after his own sexuality was used against him to stop him becoming an MP (that's a member of parlament - a politician to you American folks on here) and I feel that his motivation is as explained above - a lot of gay activism is encouraging gays and lesbians not damage themselves by trying to pretend they are something they are not and to stop others from hurting them because of their own fear and ignorance. If that's 'ramming something down your throat' then I don't have an awful lot of time for you. I think people dislike anyone who tries to do something politicially for other people hence the hate for the likes of Bono and Bob Geldof - these people have their faults but at least they try and that's a lot more difficult then sitting on your bum and slinging arrows that who actually care about something enough to try make things better.