Options

Top Gear

1280281283285286426

Comments

  • Options
    FaustFaust Posts: 8,985
    Forum Member
    Clarksons' stock in trade was always passive aggression.

    Bear with me....

    Using the word slope to refer to an incline whilst there was a carefully framed Far Easterner in the back of the shot, ALMOST, but not quite completing the Catch a N.... line, and parading British Triumphalism in Argentina-via a plausibly deniable coded numberplate...

    He could imply the offensive and the unsayable without having the honesty to actually say it outright; he masqueraded as a plain dealer, whilst never rising above the level of insidious suggestion and innuendo.

    Irony is, it wasn't the passive aggro that did for him, but the straight up aggression that did, and he ended like one of the chavs he loved to demonise.

    How are the mediocre fallen.

    TG was a bloody good prog though.....

    I'm sorry but people like yourself see things that no 'normal' person sees or gives two hoots about. I consider such people to be the ones who are dangerous not the Clarkson's of this world.

    1. I had never heard the term 'slope' and neither had most of the rest of the known universe until OFCON decided it needed to investigate - (serious matters they don't bother about).
    2. I have sung that song all my life and still do sing it. I never knew that it contained the N word neither did anyone in my family or the people I work with. I always did and still do sing different words. My understanding is the piece was never meant for broadcast and was being sung inside a car. I have no problem what people say in private as it should be just that i.e. private.
    3. I think that Clarkson and the entire TG team has been cleared of any wrong doing over the Argentina matter - total conspiracy theorist gone mad. It was in fact the indigenous population that were acting disgracefully and spoiling for a fight.

    The more organisations and governments try to force or cajole people in the way they behave the more extreme and belligerent they become. It's a fact society ignores at its peril.
  • Options
    ReadingfanReadingfan Posts: 10,256
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    Well it's a desperately sad way for the show as we know it to end.

    Whether a more amicable decision could have been reached I don't know - the BBC's decision can certainly be justified and once a full inquiry was launched and it became public knowledge I think was always a likely outcome (presuming the allegations had any substance.)

    If there had been any possibility of a compromise I'd have perhaps favoured a solution whereby the BBC basically said you've had your run, your time's pretty much up, we'll give you a contract for one more series and let you finish it on your own terms - though I accept that's my Top Gear bias coming through!

    Whilst Jeremy Clarkson clearly overstepped the mark on this occasion, I'm not convinced by suggestions of bullying overall which suggests to me something more repetitive and ongoing; of course you'd have to work on the show to fully know but everything I've read has always indicated it to be a supportive and close team who love the job they do. Equally I do feel some sympathy for Clarkson - and everyone else working on the show - over this - losing your mother, your marriage and your job within a year or so can't be easy for anyone to deal with and quite possibly he needs a break to rehabilitate.

    I hope the trio go elsewhere and make a similar car show - I'd say it's 50/50 about whether it will happen. I certainly think it's highly likely Andy Wilman, Richard Hammond and James May will leave Top Gear and that pretty much seems to be the main 4 cogs of the show gone (I think the BBC will continue Top Gear due to the prominence of the brand and the (perhaps reduced) financial rewards it will continue to offer, but I don't see it replicating anywhere near the success of 'modern Top Gear' and I'd be surprised if it's still going in say 3-5 years.) But even if they all leave obviously a new show would be dependant on any legal issues, another channel offering them a suitable deal and all of them wanting to carry on together - it's perfectly possible one of them would want a sustained break or would want to try the show abroad but the others wouldn't etc. I hope they carry on together somewhere though because I think there's still life in the show and I think the current series has been one of the very best they've done.

    I've enjoyed watching some of the DVDs back over the last few days - Limos, 24 hour race, Bugatti Veyron race against James' lame attempts to fly a plane, London race, amphibious cars...so much brilliant television. This version of Top Gear has been a part of my life on Sunday nights for a decade or so, through a variety of different changes in my life, and I will miss it dearly. Incidentally whilst I enjoyed the DVDs I noted they got a lot of criticism of twitter for the illogical way some of the features flow and the fact certain bits are missing. I was quite surprised to see at the end of the DVD credits the note - 'DVD Producer - Oisin Tymon'! (Incidentally I think perhaps the people who deserve the most blame in all of this are those who have directed abuse at him over what has happened.)

    I hope the remaining three episodes are shown in whatever capacity they can be - maybe an extended compilation of them all? I'm sure there won't be any studio bits (certainly not with an audience or anything, maybe someone would sort of present from a different location like they did with the Argentina Christmas special) - I suppose it will depend on how much had been fully filmed/edited/narrated. Presumably the film they were working on in the North East was for this current series so I can't imagine they've finished work on that - it would be interesting to know if Wilman, Hammond and May would be willing to at least complete any necessary work to put the films together and get them out. I'm fairly confident we will see at least some of the unseen material at some point.

    Of course it would be nice if they'd done some sort of special series ending which was inadvertently a suitable way for the show to go out, something like the below from 2009: (Can't believe it was almost 6 years ago! I thought it was a couple of years maybe - and incidentally I think this just demonstrates how hard it will be to replace Clarkson. As good as Hammond and May are, I don't know that either of them could produce this sort of film. I watched a bit of Clarkson's Greatest Raid of All earlier and when he's fully passionate about a subject his delivery, journalistic craft and broadcasting ability is exceptional in my view.)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Q0Svvdrx_E
  • Options
    linkinpark875linkinpark875 Posts: 29,703
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    AlexiR wrote: »
    Which is presumably standard practice at the end of every series.

    Well it wasn't the end, the presenter was axed and the show put on hold. Shame the other episodes won't go out.
  • Options
    gomezzgomezz Posts: 44,630
    Forum Member
    AlexiR wrote: »
    I'm not sure what there is to not get about that.
    That 30 seconds is a helluva long time when punching someone or being punched. Even for a psycho beating a body to a pulp long after it is dead.
  • Options
    jonbwfcjonbwfc Posts: 18,050
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    AlexiR wrote: »
    Clarkson isn't a kid in a playground though. He's a fully grown adult with a global microphone.
    Well, I agree, even if he sometimes acts like one. I was more suggesting that there are plenty of people who are happy to take up any cudgel they are presented with and presenting them with another one publicly, even indirectly, isn't likely to reduce the chance of them using it.
    AlexiR wrote: »
    I'd suggest that its also worth remembering on that front that Top Gear is a global export. The slang may not be commonly used in the UK but it certainly is elsewhere in the world and at this point in all likelihood one of the many countries that the BBC sell the show to. His actions aren't simply measured by how they go down in the UK something which Clarkson and the BBC at the very least should have been very well aware of.
    With due respect, I can't accept your premise. The upshot of it is that any edition of Top Gear (or indeed any TV show made on the BBC's behalf that sells widely abroad) would have to be vetted by people who are familiar with the vernacular and profanity laws in every single country where that show might appear. Given the variety of language and laws, that's utterly impractical. Hardly any TV would ever get made. Generally speaking TV shows are checked for those kinds of things in the country in which they are made and that's it. That's why 'slope' got shown but the 'nursery rhyme' incident didn't - it's well know that the latter word is offensive in the UK but that is not true of the former.

    You're asking for Top Gear to be held to a level of propriety no other show made by any TV channel in the world is held to. I can't accept that's reasonable.

    Also, I don't actually accept that 'slope' is a profanity that's widely used outside the UK. I have seen absolutely no evidence of that. The etymology I've read is that it was a derogatory word used by American troops during the Vietnam war but I've seen nothing to say it's proliferated from there. It might still be used somewhat in the US and would be known to people who study the social aspects of language but I've seen nothing to say it's a widely used insult in mainland Europe or Africa for example.
    AlexiR wrote: »
    It might also be worth mentioning that Clarkson himself (and his supporters) makes these incidents much bigger than that might otherwise by playing the “everyone is so PC” card.
    Undoubtedly true, Clarkson has to some degree been hoisted on his own petard. He poked the bear with a stick one time too many. But that doesn't mean we have to be the bear.
    AlexiR wrote: »
    One child uses a racist word. Its pointed out to this child that said word is offensive and they shouldn't use it. The child understands this and apologises for using the word and promises that it'll never happen again. Another child uses the same racist word and its pointed out to this cild that using that word is offensive and they shouldn't do it. This child denies every saying the word because they would never use that word and frankly finds the suggestion that they would to be outrageous. Video of the child using the word then comes to light. Child eventually sort of admits using the word and apologises.
    Which of those incidents blows over quickly and which one doesn't?
    Well, your analogy and my previous one don't really deal with the same issue - yours is about the education of one child whereas mine is about the use of words and the public reaction to them. In your case the child in question deserves the punishment is heading his way, essentially because he's broken his promise from before and keeping your word is important. And I've said I have no problem at all with Clarkson being sacked for his most recent offence. As I say, my argument is purely that the public reaction to the 'slope' incident was disproportionate and counter productive.I'd much rather the matter had been dealt with 'in house' and attention not so publicly drawn to the use of the word.
  • Options
    *Sparkle**Sparkle* Posts: 10,957
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    jonbwfc wrote: »
    I am in no way claiming that Clarkson was victimised in this regard, but I do think its' an example of the place we're in where 'the culture of outrage' has become a thing. We as a culture do seem to have lost a degree of perspective about what actually matters. You can see this in many aspects; the subjects our news media cover and how they cover them, the way our sport is reported and the way 'storms' gather on social media. Jon Ronson's recent book is very enlightening on this aspect.

    It's a bit of a leap to compare what's happened to Clarkson to the scenarios in Ronson's book. If anything, you would say the disproportionate reaction was to the Clarkson's victim, who has received huge amounts of hate via social media, or even the BBC in the form of the petition, and the general abuse its had for not turning a blind eye.

    Yes, there is a risk that some of the public act as if Clarkson's crimes are greater than they are, but that's partly because he's got away with so much for so long, and his fans make excuses for him at every turn. The idea that someone should be sacked for punching a colleague is not a new rule invented to pick on poor defenceless Clarkson, who has to make do with the backing of the Prime Minister, and all of his friends in newspapers and on tv.

    If Clarkson really does have issues, I hope he deals with them. The people acting as if he is the victim are not helping him one bit.
  • Options
    JordyDJordyD Posts: 4,007
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Why don't they do a Channel 4 and mix two shows together. Personally, I'd go with 'Watchdog Does Top Gear", Anne Robinson, Chris Hollins and Matt Allwright. :)
  • Options
    allafixallafix Posts: 20,690
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    JordyD wrote: »
    Why don't they do a Channel 4 and mix two shows together. Personally, I'd go with 'Watchdog Does Top Gear", Anne Robinson, Chris Hollins and Matt Allwright. :)
    :o:o:o

    But "Mock the Week does Top Gear" might be more on the right track.
  • Options
    allafixallafix Posts: 20,690
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    *Sparkle* wrote: »
    It's a bit of a leap to compare what's happened to Clarkson to the scenarios in Ronson's book. If anything, you would say the disproportionate reaction was to the Clarkson's victim, who has received huge amounts of hate via social media, or even the BBC in the form of the petition, and the general abuse its had for not turning a blind eye.

    Yes, there is a risk that some of the public act as if Clarkson's crimes are greater than they are, but that's partly because he's got away with so much for so long, and his fans make excuses for him at every turn. The idea that someone should be sacked for punching a colleague is not a new rule invented to pick on poor defenceless Clarkson, who has to make do with the backing of the Prime Minister, and all of his friends in newspapers and on tv.

    If Clarkson really does have issues, I hope he deals with them. The people acting as if he is the victim are not helping him one bit.
    What has he got away with? Most of the controversy around him, that's always listed in every article about him, has been to do with his part in the show, which is scripted and planned. It's not solely Clarkson that is responsible for that. the producers and BBC management must have OK'd everything that was broadcast.

    I doubt Clarkson "has issues".

    What happened to the producer afterwards was far worse than the outcome for Clarkson. Sadly, online abuse from ignorant idiots is a fact of life these days for anyone in the public eye.
  • Options
    marsch_labbmarsch_labb Posts: 687
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    allafix wrote: »
    :o:o:o

    But "Mock the Week does Top Gear" might be more on the right track.

    No, no, no!
    I disagree completely.

    It should be 'Top Gear does Mock the Week'
    And if they had done it before and had brought back Frankie Boyle, nobody who's fair would have even notice Clarkson.
  • Options
    allafixallafix Posts: 20,690
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    No, no, no!
    I disagree completely.

    It should be 'Top Gear does Mock the Week'
    And if they had done it before and had brought back Frankie Boyle, nobody who's fair would have even notice Clarkson.
    I think you have that backwards. If it was "Top Gear does Mock The Week" Frankie Boyle couldn't have been on it.

    I can't think of anything worse than Clarkson, May and Hammond trying to do Mock the Week. However, Dara O Briain, Frankie Boyle and Hugh Dennis doing Top Gear would be epic.
  • Options
    marsch_labbmarsch_labb Posts: 687
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    allafix wrote: »
    I think you have that backwards. If it was "Top Gear does Mock The Week" Frankie Boyle couldn't have been on it.

    I can't think of anything worse than Clarkson, May and Hammond trying to do Mock the Week. However, Dara O Briain, Frankie Boyle and Hugh Dennis doing Top Gear would be epic.

    You're probably right but when Out of 10 cats does Countdown, i see it has a mixture of the two. That's what i was going for and wanted to put Top Gear first.
  • Options
    Syntax ErrorSyntax Error Posts: 27,804
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Forgive me if this has been asked already (the stupid search function doesn't work for me these days; some zero sized response nonsense message I get every time I use it), but what will happen to Top Gear magazine?

    That's an excellent car magazine & it's based heavily around Clarkson, May & Hammond.

    It's either going to have to go out of production temporarily, or they're going to have to find some good article writers to fill it until everything is finalised.
  • Options
    Old EndeavourOld Endeavour Posts: 9,852
    Forum Member
    Forgive me if this has been asked already (the stupid search function doesn't work for me these days; some zero sized response nonsense message I get every time I use it), but what will happen to Top Gear magazine?

    That's an excellent car magazine & it's based heavily around Clarkson, May & Hammond.

    It's either going to have to go out of production temporarily, or they're going to have to find some good article writers to fill it until everything is finalised.

    Or fudge it for as long as possible.

    Print any last pieces they may have done. Write loads of good filler articles and have a big article about all the "wonderful" speculative change that are about to happen.
  • Options
    CD93CD93 Posts: 13,939
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
  • Options
    sianlovescatssianlovescats Posts: 1,039
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Actually I think the BBC should maybe have taken into account the state of Jeremy Clarksons mind even Piers Morgan was worried that he was seriously depressed and something was going to give. Someone somewhere should have picked up on the fact that you cant lose your Mother and your marriage in the space of 12 months have the press hounding you and carry on as normal .They had a duty of care to Clarkson which they appaer to have neglected too

    What about their duty of care towards the producer who was verbally and physically assaulted by Clarkson?
    I aknowledge the loss of his mother and the breakdown of his marriage, but they were nothing to do with the producer.
    Clarkson is responsible for his own behaviour and he has now been made to face the consequences of his violent and aggressive behaviour. These are sackable offences in any workplace.
    By the way, why can’t he get off his arse and go looking for a pub or restaurant where he could buy food and drink? Surely he’s got a couple of £20 notes in his back pocket?
  • Options
    Old EndeavourOld Endeavour Posts: 9,852
    Forum Member
    What about their duty of care towards the producer who was verbally and physically assaulted by Clarkson?
    I aknowledge the loss of his mother and the breakdown of his marriage, but they were nothing to do with the producer.
    Clarkson is responsible for his own behaviour and he has now been made to face the consequences of his violent and aggressive behaviour. These are sackable offences in any workplace.
    By the way, why can’t he get off his arse and go looking for a pub or restaurant where he could buy food and drink? Surely he’s got a couple of £20 notes in his back pocket?

    The answer is that had they fulfilled their duty of care with Clarkson in the first place, the situation with the producer may not have happened.

    It's like saying what about the victims of a train crash of a drunken driver when the company failed in their duty to enforce alcohol tests and physically check that the driver wasn't blind drunk. Yes the driver is to blame but so are the company.
  • Options
    DogmatixDogmatix Posts: 2,292
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Top Gear 22 DVD now listed as released on 2nd June on US Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Top-Gear-22-Various/dp/B00T3IKPSM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1427645241&sr=8-2&keywords=top+gear+22. 4 discs, 600 minutes.
  • Options
    i4ui4u Posts: 55,016
    Forum Member
    The answer is that had they fulfilled their duty of care with Clarkson in the first place, the situation with the producer may not have happened.

    Clarkson's executive producer was/is an old school chum & business partner, are you saying he didn't fulfil his duty of care to Clarkson & the producer?

    In fact where was the executive producer in all this, why was there 5 days between the incident and Clarkson reporting it? Did Clarkson really not discuss the incident with anyone in those 5 days?

    What occurred on the days following the incident what was the atmosphere like when they were supposed to be on location?
  • Options
    sianlovescatssianlovescats Posts: 1,039
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    The answer is that had they fulfilled their duty of care with Clarkson in the first place, the situation with the producer may not have happened.

    It's like saying what about the victims of a train crash of a drunken driver when the company failed in their duty to enforce alcohol tests and physically check that the driver wasn't blind drunk. Yes the driver is to blame but so are the company.

    With respect, I did not say that the BBC didn’t owe Clarkson a duty of care, did I? The BBC have a duty of care to all their employees. Many people seem to be giving Clarkson a free pass...because he’s a great bloke and Top Gear is their favourite programme. However, there was a petition, apparently, by a colleague to ‘reinstate’ him. The producer was allegedly subjected to death threats. Anyone who’d just arrived from Mars would have thought that Clarkson was the recipient of a vile and shocking assault when he was, in fact, the perpetrator of the assault. And it wasn’t the first time that Clarkson has assaulted a colleague.
    In my workplace all staff have to attend training in the prevention and management of violence and aggression once a year. Bullying isn’t something that is confined to the education service. School bullies, unless they are dealt with properly, become bullying adults.
  • Options
    Matt35Matt35 Posts: 30,143
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    These people sending death threats to tony hall for not renewing Clarkson's contract are complete morons same as the ones that will no doubt blame Tymon. He didn't even report it and even Clarkson has said he is in no way at fault. Some people need to get a grip.
  • Options
    FayecorgasmFayecorgasm Posts: 29,793
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    With respect, I did not say that the BBC didn’t owe Clarkson a duty of care, did I? The BBC have a duty of care to all their employees. Many people seem to be giving Clarkson a free pass...because he’s a great bloke and Top Gear is their favourite programme. However, there was a petition, apparently, by a colleague to ‘reinstate’ him. The producer was allegedly subjected to death threats. Anyone who’d just arrived from Mars would have thought that Clarkson was the recipient of a vile and shocking assault when he was, in fact, the perpetrator of the assault. And it wasn’t the first time that Clarkson has assaulted a colleague.
    In my workplace all staff have to attend training in the prevention and management of violence and aggression once a year. Bullying isn’t something that is confined to the education service. School bullies, unless they are dealt with properly, become bullying adults.
    I didnt say he should get a free pass but if even peirs morgan is flagging up his depression then someone shoud have done something .The hatred of Clarkson seems to be blinding some people to the enormous amount of mental strain he was under and had been under for some time .Depression is a terrible illness a man has jut crashed a plane into a mountain while suffering .It is never treated seriously enough in my view
  • Options
    JordyDJordyD Posts: 4,007
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Matt35 wrote: »
    These people sending death threats to tony hall for not renewing Clarkson's contract are complete morons same as the ones that will no doubt blame Tymon. He didn't even report it and even Clarkson has said he is in no way at fault. Some people need to get a grip.

    Even if he did report it, he should get 100% support for reporting abusive or assaultive behaviour.
  • Options
    linkinpark875linkinpark875 Posts: 29,703
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Talk is C4, Sky, ITV ain't intereted in Clarkson. Hammond and May could still stay on.

    Sadly any hope they can simply 'Take the show to another network' seems far fetched. Some talk they will do the live shows minus Top Gear branding so I hope if it goes ahead something tv wise can come up for them?

    No doubt even UKTV can't take them on if they are still part owned by BBC?
  • Options
    linkinpark875linkinpark875 Posts: 29,703
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Dogmatix wrote: »
    Top Gear 22 DVD now listed as released on 2nd June on US Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Top-Gear-22-Various/dp/B00T3IKPSM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1427645241&sr=8-2&keywords=top+gear+22. 4 discs, 600 minutes.

    What about the episodes never broadcast? I'd buy the DVD if it included all the unseen films they done before the show was cancelled.
This discussion has been closed.