The only TVs on the UK market which have true HD resolution (1920 x 1080) and are capable of displaying 1080p are the Sharp LC45GD1E (45') and the LC65GD1E (65" with bigger pixels).
Come next Feb/Mar, you're going to see a number of full resolution panels (1920x1080) from the main brands - namely Sharp and JVC, who both have 37"+ TVs in Japan. I believe these will be able to handle native 1080p signals. Whether the upscaling DVD player/recorder's de-interlacer is better than the TV's will remain to be seen.
Equally, there's Benq's 37" which some people have imported already from Europe - this will be accompanied by the 46" version, to co-incide with Sky+ HD's Feb (planned) launch. Already the Benq 37" costs £1500 ish - this be the same or slightly less with the official UK version.
So, hanging off 'til Spring makes perfect sense.
Indeed, current pannels screens, projectors at 1280x720 won't even give you the full goodness of 1080I .
However dew to the progressive nature of modern digital displays interlaced won't work properly on them so any interlaced picture will be scaled to 1080P. 1080i with a films running at the usual 24frames per second sped upto 25 frames per second can effectivly be effectivly be interlaced into 1080p @ 25 on these screens.
I'm indeed holding off for now. waiting for a nice 1080p ready DLP.
Except that it won't work with any of the installed base of MPEG2 based TVs and STBs. Which in the US is a substantial number. They are locked in to MPEG2.
What utter pish! DTV's entire HD strategy, starting with H20 is based around AVC/H.264! OK, cable will probably go WMV9 (what with M$ buying up cable operators left, right and centre), but H.264 will become the defacto sattelite standard in the US within 3 years.
What is "pish"? To switch to H.264 would involve replacing the entire installed base of STBs and integrated HDTVs. It's possible, but would be extremely expensive and unpopular.
And even if DirectTV did switch, remember that the main national networks are picked up from OTA not the satellite.
What is "pish"? To switch to H.264 would involve replacing the entire installed base of STBs and integrated HDTVs. It's possible, but would be extremely expensive and unpopular.
And even if DirectTV did switch, remember that the main national networks are picked up from OTA not the satellite.
Indeed, moving to mpeg4 from mpeg2 is not a simple task.
Rupert is prepared to absorb the cost and buy 20million mpeg4 DVR's for his DirecTV satellite service, that is a huge outlay but as a PAY service they do expect to recoup those costs. The same sort of model will apply to PAY cable services as well.
OTA broadcasts being mostly free rely on the good will of the consumer to buy the HD receivers and pay the premium for TV's with digital tuners. Far more complex an issue to change a mpeg2 OTA broadcast to a mpeg4 one without major governement and regulatory intervention.
I saw an HDTV demo in the Sony Centre. It was being fed the Euro 1080 sat channel, so I assume it was a 1080i signal, and it display the tell tale signs of interlacing i.e. static straight lines flickered, and shallow diagonals were jagged.
I'll stick to 720p until it's sorted.
They are showing the same demo setup in the SONY centre in Leeds. However, the TV is only 1366 x 768 so it is downscaling the 1080 to 720.
The assumption of this thread appears to be that display with 1080 physical lines that can accept a 1080p signal is automatically "better" than a set with 720 physical lines displaying a 720p input.
Surely the best display is one that physically matches the broadcast signal you want to watch. So the argument is really what broadcast format we are going to see predominantly over the next few years. It looks like in the UK at least that 720p will be the most common display format used by Sky. (Possibly with some 1080i as well.) Of course there is Euro1080 displaying 1080i but from what I have seen they have no content that i would want to watch. (When I last looked at their web site they listed the Eurovision song contest as one of their prime attractions!)
If 720p is going to be the dominant format in the forseable future then I would go for a 720p set now. There is no point going for a 1080 screen that has to scale up a 720 signal with the hope that one day 1080p will come along.
I might change my mind though if there was some info that Blue-Ray/HD-DVD was all going to be 1080i/p rather than 720p? Does anyone here know which format the next gen DVDs are likely to be?
I believe both camps have stated 1080p content on the next blue laser media using a number of codecs.
The slight problem is that SKY have only indicated a preference for 720p on their sports coverage, they could still use 1080i for SKY1 and their movie channels. The likes of HD1/2 will be 1080i as I fully expect the BBC will be as well as NG and Discovery with higer resolution being more beneficial to the content than 720p will be for sports coverage.
At the end of the day a individual has to factor in these questions and the price and availability of displays, sometimes you have to buy for what is good now and hope for the best:)
My understanding is that HD-DVD and BluRay are resolution agnostic; their tech specs mention 480, 576, 720 and 1080. Everyone is assuming that films will be on those disks as 1080p, but that is entirely up to the film companies.
The BBC tech spods came out in favour of 720p, although the BBC has not to my knowleds yet said. As most of their HD stuff is currently US co-productions, I suspect that it varies depending on the preferences of the funder.
My understanding is that HD-DVD and BluRay are resolution agnostic; their tech specs mention 480, 576, 720 and 1080. Everyone is assuming that films will be on those disks as 1080p, but that is entirely up to the film companies.
Yep, I didn't mean to imply that ALL content will be 1080p since the media will carry any digital data as the distributor requires however movie studios who back the two formats have said 1080p is the preferred format.
The assumption of this thread appears to be that display with 1080 physical lines that can accept a 1080p signal is automatically "better" than a set with 720 physical lines displaying a 720p input.
Surely the best display is one that physically matches the broadcast signal you want to watch. So the argument is really what broadcast format we are going to see predominantly over the next few years. It looks like in the UK at least that 720p will be the most common display format used by Sky. (Possibly with some 1080i as well.) Of course there is Euro1080 displaying 1080i but from what I have seen they have no content that i would want to watch. (When I last looked at their web site they listed the Eurovision song contest as one of their prime attractions!)
If 720p is going to be the dominant format in the forseable future then I would go for a 720p set now. There is no point going for a 1080 screen that has to scale up a 720 signal with the hope that one day 1080p will come along.
I might change my mind though if there was some info that Blue-Ray/HD-DVD was all going to be 1080i/p rather than 720p? Does anyone here know which format the next gen DVDs are likely to be?
720p with 1:1 pixel matching would seem like the best option for picture quality, since there would be no scaling whatsoever.
There are two problems:
1. Apart from DLPs, displays with a native resolution of 1280 x 720 are very rare.
2. Not all 720p displays support 1:1 pixel matching. It's quite common for digital displays to crop and zoom the image in order to simulate the effect of overscan (to hide control signals and other distracting junk that inhabits the edges of the frame).
HD-DVD and Blu-ray will be 1080i or 1080p. The only question is, which.
HD-DVD and Blu-ray will be 1080i or 1080p. The only question is, which.
No, it will depend on the content. I agree most movie material will be 1080 of some description (probably i for compatibility), but disks of originally 720p content will likely be 720p on disk too.
Remember that the EFFECTIVE resolution for 1080i will be... about 720P. You are getting two pictures of 540 lines, one after another offset by 1/2 a line.
Indeed the data rate is the same.
for this reason, most current HD cameras have a resolution of 1440x1080. NOT 1920.
One of the main bugbears of interlace is the many picture artifacts that it introduces into the picture.
The EBU recommends Europe uses 720P for this reason. (not compulsory). EBU documents show that 1080P will be adopted at some point. This would suggest to me a data rate approximately 20mb/s using H.264. H'mm, where have I heard THAT figure before.
Deinterlacing is a big compromise, there will always be conversion losses and errors - and so say the BBC Boffins. Better to junk all the problems and stick to progressive - IMHO.
I walked into the Sony centre in Derby yesterday where three very eager assistants were trying to sell a HDTV to a middle aged couple. When they had finished they sorounded me offering assistance "that’s a great picture" I said "is that 720p or 1080i" "that’s 1080i sir" he replied
"I’m looking for a 1080p HDTV, do you have any?" to my amazement all three assistants replied " there is no such thing as 1080p"
I explained to the Sony assistants what 1080p is, and that 1080p HDTVS are commonplace in the USA, Japan, and Europe, and that the new generation of DVD players support 1080p not to mention the PS3.
I left 3 rather bemused assistants huddled around their PC reading up on 1080p.
It just goes to show you that even in a high profile store such as this they havent got a clue what their talking about.
A bit unfair; I don't think it's a reasonable criticism of shop assistants for them not to know about a format which does not exist yet as far as consumers are concerned!
I'm not sure even in the US that 1080p sets are "commeonplace". 1080 DLP has only been out a few months.
Shop assistants are brand ambassadors, in this case ambassadors for Sony.
I went to the store as a paying customer looking for a specific product (1080p HDTV) only to be told categorically that the product I wanted DID NOT EXIST.
Now for arguments sake lets just say I believed what the Sony assistant was telling me and went ahead and made a considerable purchase only to find out that the assistant was wrong. Infact the product I initially requested does exist, is available, and is manufactured by several rival companies.
How can my criticism of the three shop assistants possibly be deemed as unfair? :eek:
Agreed?
Not really, they only know what they're told and if they know that it's good and if they know more it's pretty amazing.
1080p's aren't commonplace either in the US. There are a few that upscale to 1080p and there might be a few that accept 1080p over HDMI but most will be 1080i max
Comments
They used MPEG2 for crying out loud, so I take the 1080p statement with a pinch of salt.
StooMonster
Philips 37" LCD widescreen flat TV Pixel Plus 2 HD 37PF9830/10
LCD True HD display, 1920x1080p
HD ready for the highest quality display of HDTV signals
http://www.consumer.philips.com/consumer/catalog/catalog.jsp?fhquery=fh_secondid%3D37pf9830_10_gb_consumer%26fh_location%3D%2F%2Fconsumer%2Fen_GB%2Fcategories%3Ccatalog_gb_consumer%2Fcategories%3Ctv_gr_gb_consumer%2Fcategories%3Cflat_tv_ca_gb_consumer%2Fcategories%3Clcd_large_30_40_su_gb_consumer%26&productId=37PF9830_10_GB_CONSUMER&activeCategory=TV_GR_GB_CONSUMER&fredhopperpage=detail.jsp&language=en&country=GB&catalogType=CONSUMER&proxybuster=XV42W0FFNXHPFJ0RMRESHP3HKFSEKI5P
It has the native resolution but still has to rely on it's own internal de-interlacer when being fed 1080i material, that is it's weakness.
Equally, there's Benq's 37" which some people have imported already from Europe - this will be accompanied by the 46" version, to co-incide with Sky+ HD's Feb (planned) launch. Already the Benq 37" costs £1500 ish - this be the same or slightly less with the official UK version.
So, hanging off 'til Spring makes perfect sense.
Roll on March :eek:
However dew to the progressive nature of modern digital displays interlaced won't work properly on them so any interlaced picture will be scaled to 1080P. 1080i with a films running at the usual 24frames per second sped upto 25 frames per second can effectivly be effectivly be interlaced into 1080p @ 25 on these screens.
I'm indeed holding off for now. waiting for a nice 1080p ready DLP.
What utter pish! DTV's entire HD strategy, starting with H20 is based around AVC/H.264! OK, cable will probably go WMV9 (what with M$ buying up cable operators left, right and centre), but H.264 will become the defacto sattelite standard in the US within 3 years.
And even if DirectTV did switch, remember that the main national networks are picked up from OTA not the satellite.
Indeed, moving to mpeg4 from mpeg2 is not a simple task.
Rupert is prepared to absorb the cost and buy 20million mpeg4 DVR's for his DirecTV satellite service, that is a huge outlay but as a PAY service they do expect to recoup those costs. The same sort of model will apply to PAY cable services as well.
OTA broadcasts being mostly free rely on the good will of the consumer to buy the HD receivers and pay the premium for TV's with digital tuners. Far more complex an issue to change a mpeg2 OTA broadcast to a mpeg4 one without major governement and regulatory intervention.
They are showing the same demo setup in the SONY centre in Leeds. However, the TV is only 1366 x 768 so it is downscaling the 1080 to 720.
Still looks good though.
HDTV is just hype at the moment...a means for manufacturers etc. to charge premium figures to a gullible public.
:yawn:
Surely the best display is one that physically matches the broadcast signal you want to watch. So the argument is really what broadcast format we are going to see predominantly over the next few years. It looks like in the UK at least that 720p will be the most common display format used by Sky. (Possibly with some 1080i as well.) Of course there is Euro1080 displaying 1080i but from what I have seen they have no content that i would want to watch. (When I last looked at their web site they listed the Eurovision song contest as one of their prime attractions!)
If 720p is going to be the dominant format in the forseable future then I would go for a 720p set now. There is no point going for a 1080 screen that has to scale up a 720 signal with the hope that one day 1080p will come along.
I might change my mind though if there was some info that Blue-Ray/HD-DVD was all going to be 1080i/p rather than 720p? Does anyone here know which format the next gen DVDs are likely to be?
The slight problem is that SKY have only indicated a preference for 720p on their sports coverage, they could still use 1080i for SKY1 and their movie channels. The likes of HD1/2 will be 1080i as I fully expect the BBC will be as well as NG and Discovery with higer resolution being more beneficial to the content than 720p will be for sports coverage.
At the end of the day a individual has to factor in these questions and the price and availability of displays, sometimes you have to buy for what is good now and hope for the best:)
The BBC tech spods came out in favour of 720p, although the BBC has not to my knowleds yet said. As most of their HD stuff is currently US co-productions, I suspect that it varies depending on the preferences of the funder.
Yep, I didn't mean to imply that ALL content will be 1080p since the media will carry any digital data as the distributor requires however movie studios who back the two formats have said 1080p is the preferred format.
720p with 1:1 pixel matching would seem like the best option for picture quality, since there would be no scaling whatsoever.
There are two problems:
1. Apart from DLPs, displays with a native resolution of 1280 x 720 are very rare.
2. Not all 720p displays support 1:1 pixel matching. It's quite common for digital displays to crop and zoom the image in order to simulate the effect of overscan (to hide control signals and other distracting junk that inhabits the edges of the frame).
HD-DVD and Blu-ray will be 1080i or 1080p. The only question is, which.
No, it will depend on the content. I agree most movie material will be 1080 of some description (probably i for compatibility), but disks of originally 720p content will likely be 720p on disk too.
Indeed the data rate is the same.
for this reason, most current HD cameras have a resolution of 1440x1080. NOT 1920.
One of the main bugbears of interlace is the many picture artifacts that it introduces into the picture.
The EBU recommends Europe uses 720P for this reason. (not compulsory). EBU documents show that 1080P will be adopted at some point. This would suggest to me a data rate approximately 20mb/s using H.264. H'mm, where have I heard THAT figure before.
Deinterlacing is a big compromise, there will always be conversion losses and errors - and so say the BBC Boffins. Better to junk all the problems and stick to progressive - IMHO.
"I’m looking for a 1080p HDTV, do you have any?" to my amazement all three assistants replied " there is no such thing as 1080p"
I explained to the Sony assistants what 1080p is, and that 1080p HDTVS are commonplace in the USA, Japan, and Europe, and that the new generation of DVD players support 1080p not to mention the PS3.
I left 3 rather bemused assistants huddled around their PC reading up on 1080p.
It just goes to show you that even in a high profile store such as this they havent got a clue what their talking about.
I'm not sure even in the US that 1080p sets are "commeonplace". 1080 DLP has only been out a few months.
I went to the store as a paying customer looking for a specific product (1080p HDTV) only to be told categorically that the product I wanted DID NOT EXIST.
Now for arguments sake lets just say I believed what the Sony assistant was telling me and went ahead and made a considerable purchase only to find out that the assistant was wrong. Infact the product I initially requested does exist, is available, and is manufactured by several rival companies.
How can my criticism of the three shop assistants possibly be deemed as unfair? :eek:
Agreed?
1080p's aren't commonplace either in the US. There are a few that upscale to 1080p and there might be a few that accept 1080p over HDMI but most will be 1080i max