Only just watched the final ep. I think the series as a whole was something of a mis-fire, but I did like the ending. Both in terms of the way it tied the plot up, but also how well it was put together with the music and editing. So it kind of ended on a high for me, even though it was pretty medicore for most of the rest of the five nights.
And I don't see how anyone can suggest the supernatural element was just thrown in at the end; it was toying with the idea throughout. Admittedly it wasn't clear until right at the end that the supernatural part was real and not just a red herring, but there was always the possibility that it was going to resolve itself that way.
Totally disagree.
There's a big difference between 'toying with the supernatural throughout' and tying up the plot with a completely out of left field denouement like evidence turning to stone.
There was absolutely no suggestion, no seed planted that this was the kind of story we had invested in. i.e. full blown magic that wouldn't have been out of place in something like Snow White.
And as you say, it wasn't clear right up to the end, a little hint here or there that could have just been artistic license, but to then go the full hog with that sort of nonsensical resolve isn't tying up a plot, it's cheating an audience.
Although granted, it could be construed as tying up the plot to a certain extent; a plot which had painted itself into a corner and needed to then rely on something fantastical like this to redeem itself.
Edit. I have just seen someone else has said this :eek: Have I missed something :o
Sorry I'm late to the party, but I'm just watching the last episode now (15 minutes in) whilst scrolling through this whole thread and at this stage I definitely think it's the ex-police woman too. Hopefully by the time I get to the end of the thread I'll know whether I was right or not!
Malcolm going to the police to report what he saw just didn't suit the plot! He had plenty of reasons to kill himself, even before he witnessed the murder - but if he had reported what he saw, there would've been no more episodes:cool:
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Not exactly. They could have had it that he kept quiet at first and then spoke up towards the end but then he still almost certainly would have faced injustice one way or the other.
He shouldn't have killed himself for the other things that he was up to or had goton himself into. Had it come out what he was doing in the woods he would have done time but not life but getting possibly scapegoated for a murder he didn't commit, would have got him a death sentence in all reality considering his age and the time he would have served.
Finally, there are plenty of programmes where the Police are trying to crack the murderer from the off, just about getting the evidence but again, I doubt they would have gone after the real murderer on this one.
There's a big difference between 'toying with the supernatural throughout' and tying up the plot with a completely out of left field denouement like evidence turning to stone.
There was absolutely no suggestion, no seed planted that this was the kind of story we had invested in. i.e. full blown magic that wouldn't have been out of place in something like Snow White.
And as you say, it wasn't clear right up to the end, a little hint here or there that could have just been artistic license, but to then go the full hog with that sort of nonsensical resolve isn't tying up a plot, it's cheating an audience.
Although granted, it could be construed as tying up the plot to a certain extent; a plot which had painted itself into a corner and needed to then rely on something fantastical like this to redeem itself.
The paranormal stuff would have been a lot more easier to take if the earthly bits had made any sense, such as what Fiona said at the station that convinced the police that Everett was guilty, but there was almost no substance to the conclusion at all.
I think any claims that an audience disatisfied with that dodgy ending expects to be spoonfed all the answers should be taken with the same credibilty as claims that the people can see the Emporer's new clothes - some of the most important answers were just not there to find.
Felt cheated at the end, nothing supernatural at all for me just caitlin dressing up as hattie to scare alan, was expecting him to choke on his sandwich though and at least get a bit of justice out of it all, left too many loose ends, what happened to seth, did steve get his family back, did everett get charged, just felt the writers backed themselves into a corner they found it difficult to escape from.
If it were hattie's spirit (or whatever you want to call it) dropping the stones, why couldn't she make them spell out "it were alan wot did it"? Or write it on a blackboard or something?
Why are the spirits of the dead always so reluctant to give useful information?
Conversely, there were too many loose ends left dangling (is Seth alive or dead? If dead, what happened to his body? Was Fiona on maternity leave or out of the force for psychological reasons? Had Everett done anything to her or was that all in her head? If he had, what was it? Where did the motivation for Fiona to protect her husband at Everett's expense come from, when she seemed terrified of him earlier? Why did Charlotte have bite marks on her arms? Did Caitlin just dress up as her sister, did she choose to assume Hattie's looks and personality or was she actually taken over by her? Was Everett freed? Did Malcolm Spicer hang himself because of the bankruptcy or was there another motive? And they're just the ones I can remember off the top of my head.) It's too much of a cop-out (no pun intended) to say "ah well, it's an open ending, you have to use your imagination" with the suggestion that anyone not prepared or happy to do that somehow isn't sophisticated or intelligent enough to appreciate "modern drama". If I wanted to have to come up with answers to all those questions and more I'd be writing the damned programmes, not watching them. They rounded off Lesley Manville's storyline satisfactorily, why couldn't they do the same for the others?
IMO it would have worked vastly better if they had tied up some of the human / psychological threads more neatly and left the supernatural element ambiguous, but I think in the execution they got that the wrong way round.
I'm often critical of TV drama for leaving too many loose ends, but I don't think this was as bad an offender as many. I agree that Seth's fate was a major loose end, but some of the others were left reasonably clear.
Admittedly it was never clear whether Everett had really done Fiona some wrong or not. It's clear Everett's memory of that time was not very good, so he himself didn't know. I read it that something very minor had happened and that Fiona was deliberately trying to magnify it in her head to justify the dreadful thing she intended to do to him. I don't mind that one being left to our imagination.
Fiona's desire was to protect her family, rather than just Alan. I think she was also thinking about her children; about them growing up knowing what their father had done. While everything wasn't spelt out, I think we had enough to understand that for Fiona, it was her family first and last and bad luck to anyone who got in the way.
I think Charlotte bit her own arms; Fiona said she had done it herself and, with nothing to contradict that, I think that stands. Charlotte was troubled because she knew she'd seen Hattie the day she disappeared, and I have no doubt Hattie was with Alan in his car. She was troubled by the thought that her father might have hurt Hattie, thus explaining her hostility to him. She allowed her fears to be allayed by Alan; she didn't want to believe these things of her father and with him being so comforting and kind to her she felt that he was a good man who wouldn't have hurt Hattie. The encounter at the end, however, is likely to set her doubts racing again. Sadly, Charlotte seems destined to suffer along with her parents; the innocent victim, as children often are. Again, this wasn't spelt out, but I thought we had enough to think ourselves to that conclusion.
Caitlin was actually taken over by her sister. I don't see any room for doubt there; Caitlin talked to Linus about how her sister was taking her over. She had no reason to tell him this if it was just an act for Alan's benefit.
Similarly, we were left in no doubt that Everett would be freed. We saw that the evidence against him had been lost; Linus' smile told us he knew the police had now no case.
Malcolm Spicer had reason enough to kill himself after losing everything. Many men have killed themselves in such circumstances. Witnessing a murder (and possibly masturbating while doing so) wouldn't have helped. Probably there wasn't just one reason, and it didn't really matter which weighed heaviest on him. All his problems drove him to suicide.
Everitt would have been freed anyway, that little bit of Moss/hair would not have convicted him, no DNA & he would have told the Police that the woman had visited him, plus the fact that his son hated him.
DavetheScot summarises my feelings about the ending very well.I havn't joined in this thread because I watched 4 episodes back to back, then the last one 'live' .
I wasn't particularly disappointed by the ending, it was building in my mind the whole time that Fiona just wanted to keep her family together and get back to her police work.Life is rarely neatly sewn up.
The synopsis in the TV guide for the final episode said 'The episode is full of shocks with a hint at the supernatural. It won't be to everyone's taste, but it's boldly imaginative'. I would agree with this especially after reading a lot of these posts. I think it sums it up very well.
I was wondering how Linus managed to consistently get girls to 'go to the woods with him'? He wasn't portrayed as the most popular of 16-year-olds and it seemed a pretty small town...
Felt cheated at the end, nothing supernatural at all for me just caitlin dressing up as hattie to scare alan, was expecting him to choke on his sandwich though and at least get a bit of justice out of it all, left too many loose ends, what happened to seth, did steve get his family back, did everett get charged, just felt the writers backed themselves into a corner they found it difficult to escape from.
The unanswered questions did jar with me especially the question of whether or not Everett was going to be charged with Hattie's killing. It was interesting to see how an ex-copper was willing to compromise all sense of civic and moral duty by protecting her husband for the sake of an idyllic family life. I actually found the scene outside the church with Fiona and Caitlin the most powerful and affecting as it gave a clear indication of the awful choice she was making and you could sense how this would torment her. For me, the ending worked from a thematic point of view. Hattie stating that she would come back to get him from her grave and I actually found it quite chilling.
I'mCaitlin was actually taken over by her sister. I don't see any room for doubt there; Caitlin talked to Linus about how her sister was taking her over. She had no reason to tell him this if it was just an act for Alan's benefit.
isnt it possible that caitlin believed that she was being taken over? she said at the funeral she was trying to see the world the way she did and believe in the things hattie did. I also believe the stones were in caitlins head
it seems obvious to me that hattie had no supernatural powers because of two things.
1. she said to Alan the impotence spell only worked because he believed it. i.e his impotence was psychological. This was pretty much admittence that even she didnt really believe she had powers
2. she had a crush on everett he didnt feel the same way so she cast a love spell and sent that little heart charm. Everett stated that he didnt believe in that sort of thing. if she actually had powers the love spell would have worked
I'm quite grateful to BBC1 drama for treating me like an adult. With drama on BBC2 you usually have to work for the rewards but some of that was present here - not so much of the spoon feeding, or the bleedin' boring whodunnit nonsense that follows a standard template.
It's nice to see some people complain that it wasn't all tied up neatly for them, or it wasn't absolutely obvious. That was, of course, the intention.
In terms of ideas and encouraging people to work at it, this reminded me of Line of Duty last year - personally I like that BBC1 now has these occasional treat-em-like-adult dramas.
I also find the discussion here really encouraging.
I'm often critical of TV drama for leaving too many loose ends, but I don't think this was as bad an offender as many. I agree that Seth's fate was a major loose end, but some of the others were left reasonably clear.
Admittedly it was never clear whether Everett had really done Fiona some wrong or not. It's clear Everett's memory of that time was not very good, so he himself didn't know. I read it that something very minor had happened and that Fiona was deliberately trying to magnify it in her head to justify the dreadful thing she intended to do to him. I don't mind that one being left to our imagination.
Fiona's desire was to protect her family, rather than just Alan. I think she was also thinking about her children; about them growing up knowing what their father had done. While everything wasn't spelt out, I think we had enough to understand that for Fiona, it was her family first and last and bad luck to anyone who got in the way.
I think Charlotte bit her own arms; Fiona said she had done it herself and, with nothing to contradict that, I think that stands. Charlotte was troubled because she knew she'd seen Hattie the day she disappeared, and I have no doubt Hattie was with Alan in his car. She was troubled by the thought that her father might have hurt Hattie, thus explaining her hostility to him. She allowed her fears to be allayed by Alan; she didn't want to believe these things of her father and with him being so comforting and kind to her she felt that he was a good man who wouldn't have hurt Hattie. The encounter at the end, however, is likely to set her doubts racing again. Sadly, Charlotte seems destined to suffer along with her parents; the innocent victim, as children often are. Again, this wasn't spelt out, but I thought we had enough to think ourselves to that conclusion.
Caitlin was actually taken over by her sister. I don't see any room for doubt there; Caitlin talked to Linus about how her sister was taking her over. She had no reason to tell him this if it was just an act for Alan's benefit.
Similarly, we were left in no doubt that Everett would be freed. We saw that the evidence against him had been lost; Linus' smile told us he knew the police had now no case.
Malcolm Spicer had reason enough to kill himself after losing everything. Many men have killed themselves in such circumstances. Witnessing a murder (and possibly masturbating while doing so) wouldn't have helped. Probably there wasn't just one reason, and it didn't really matter which weighed heaviest on him. All his problems drove him to suicide.
I think this is a really good overview, I'm suprised at how many people are calling the Everett storyline a loose end. I thought it was pretty clear he would not be charged, the loss of evidence and Linus' smile at the end was pointing to it.
The most complete storyline was probably Malcom Spicer and his Wife (who is brilliant btw) I'm happy that she had a good ending.
I also thought Charlotte bit herself, she was upset and confused by her parents behaviour, the only real loose end is what happened to Seth, I assume Hattie's father beat him badly and either took him to hospital or killed him. I don't really mind not knowing I think the main plots were tied up quite well, or well enough for us to piece it all together.
, the only real loose end is what happened to Seth, I assume Hattie's father beat him badly and either took him to hospital or killed him. I don't really mind not knowing I think the main plots were tied up quite well, or well enough for us to piece it all together.
In pagan terms, I think Seth was The Green Man which, according to Wikipedia is "a symbol of rebirth, or "renaissance", representing the cycle of growth each spring".
Of course, after Seth's death, the May Queen was seemingly 'reborn', and on her bike again. The May Queen is also seen as a relic of the olde days of tree worship. Seth/Green Man engineered his death in order to facilitate the rebirth.
So, it seems you've really got to knew yer pagan to link up all the associations - but I would assume Seth died on the same tree alter/stump like wot his Queen did.
I'm quite grateful to BBC1 drama for treating me like an adult. With drama on BBC2 you usually have to work for the rewards but some of that was present here - not so much of the spoon feeding, or the bleedin' boring whodunnit nonsense that follows a standard template.
Have to agree with that. One of the most common complaints from posters on here is how programmes are "dumbed down" too much for their liking.
Then when one comes along that makes you have to use your brain and think about it a bit they complain that the ending isn't all neatly parceled up with a pink ribbon tied around it for them. Makes you laugh, really. :rolleyes:
If it were hattie's spirit (or whatever you want to call it) dropping the stones, why couldn't she make them spell out "it were alan wot did it"? Or write it on a blackboard or something?
Why are the spirits of the dead always so reluctant to give useful information?
In pagan terms, I think Seth was The Green Man which, according to Wikipedia is "a symbol of rebirth, or "renaissance", representing the cycle of growth each spring".
Of course, after Seth's death, the May Queen was seemingly 'reborn', and on her bike again. The May Queen is also seen as a relic of the olde days of tree worship. Seth/Green Man engineered his death in order to facilitate the rebirth.
So, it seems you've really got to knew yer pagan to link up all the associations - but I would assume Seth died on the same tree alter/stump like wot his Queen did.
Oh now that's an interesting and very credible interpretation But I don't think many of us would have come to that conclusion - just saying that in light of the comments about viewers wanting to be spoon-fed.
Comments
And left us, the viewers, to decide what in the earth happened. Very lazy BBC :mad:
Totally disagree.
There's a big difference between 'toying with the supernatural throughout' and tying up the plot with a completely out of left field denouement like evidence turning to stone.
There was absolutely no suggestion, no seed planted that this was the kind of story we had invested in. i.e. full blown magic that wouldn't have been out of place in something like Snow White.
And as you say, it wasn't clear right up to the end, a little hint here or there that could have just been artistic license, but to then go the full hog with that sort of nonsensical resolve isn't tying up a plot, it's cheating an audience.
Although granted, it could be construed as tying up the plot to a certain extent; a plot which had painted itself into a corner and needed to then rely on something fantastical like this to redeem itself.
Sorry I'm late to the party, but I'm just watching the last episode now (15 minutes in) whilst scrolling through this whole thread and at this stage I definitely think it's the ex-police woman too. Hopefully by the time I get to the end of the thread I'll know whether I was right or not!
Not exactly. They could have had it that he kept quiet at first and then spoke up towards the end but then he still almost certainly would have faced injustice one way or the other.
He shouldn't have killed himself for the other things that he was up to or had goton himself into. Had it come out what he was doing in the woods he would have done time but not life but getting possibly scapegoated for a murder he didn't commit, would have got him a death sentence in all reality considering his age and the time he would have served.
Finally, there are plenty of programmes where the Police are trying to crack the murderer from the off, just about getting the evidence but again, I doubt they would have gone after the real murderer on this one.
The paranormal stuff would have been a lot more easier to take if the earthly bits had made any sense, such as what Fiona said at the station that convinced the police that Everett was guilty, but there was almost no substance to the conclusion at all.
I think any claims that an audience disatisfied with that dodgy ending expects to be spoonfed all the answers should be taken with the same credibilty as claims that the people can see the Emporer's new clothes - some of the most important answers were just not there to find.
Why are the spirits of the dead always so reluctant to give useful information?
I'm often critical of TV drama for leaving too many loose ends, but I don't think this was as bad an offender as many. I agree that Seth's fate was a major loose end, but some of the others were left reasonably clear.
Admittedly it was never clear whether Everett had really done Fiona some wrong or not. It's clear Everett's memory of that time was not very good, so he himself didn't know. I read it that something very minor had happened and that Fiona was deliberately trying to magnify it in her head to justify the dreadful thing she intended to do to him. I don't mind that one being left to our imagination.
Fiona's desire was to protect her family, rather than just Alan. I think she was also thinking about her children; about them growing up knowing what their father had done. While everything wasn't spelt out, I think we had enough to understand that for Fiona, it was her family first and last and bad luck to anyone who got in the way.
I think Charlotte bit her own arms; Fiona said she had done it herself and, with nothing to contradict that, I think that stands. Charlotte was troubled because she knew she'd seen Hattie the day she disappeared, and I have no doubt Hattie was with Alan in his car. She was troubled by the thought that her father might have hurt Hattie, thus explaining her hostility to him. She allowed her fears to be allayed by Alan; she didn't want to believe these things of her father and with him being so comforting and kind to her she felt that he was a good man who wouldn't have hurt Hattie. The encounter at the end, however, is likely to set her doubts racing again. Sadly, Charlotte seems destined to suffer along with her parents; the innocent victim, as children often are. Again, this wasn't spelt out, but I thought we had enough to think ourselves to that conclusion.
Caitlin was actually taken over by her sister. I don't see any room for doubt there; Caitlin talked to Linus about how her sister was taking her over. She had no reason to tell him this if it was just an act for Alan's benefit.
Similarly, we were left in no doubt that Everett would be freed. We saw that the evidence against him had been lost; Linus' smile told us he knew the police had now no case.
Malcolm Spicer had reason enough to kill himself after losing everything. Many men have killed themselves in such circumstances. Witnessing a murder (and possibly masturbating while doing so) wouldn't have helped. Probably there wasn't just one reason, and it didn't really matter which weighed heaviest on him. All his problems drove him to suicide.
They should stop eating in the staff canteen then!:D
I wasn't particularly disappointed by the ending, it was building in my mind the whole time that Fiona just wanted to keep her family together and get back to her police work.Life is rarely neatly sewn up.
I was wondering how Linus managed to consistently get girls to 'go to the woods with him'? He wasn't portrayed as the most popular of 16-year-olds and it seemed a pretty small town...
At that age, a couple of lollipops and a justin peepee LP should be enough.
The unanswered questions did jar with me especially the question of whether or not Everett was going to be charged with Hattie's killing. It was interesting to see how an ex-copper was willing to compromise all sense of civic and moral duty by protecting her husband for the sake of an idyllic family life. I actually found the scene outside the church with Fiona and Caitlin the most powerful and affecting as it gave a clear indication of the awful choice she was making and you could sense how this would torment her. For me, the ending worked from a thematic point of view. Hattie stating that she would come back to get him from her grave and I actually found it quite chilling.
isnt it possible that caitlin believed that she was being taken over? she said at the funeral she was trying to see the world the way she did and believe in the things hattie did. I also believe the stones were in caitlins head
it seems obvious to me that hattie had no supernatural powers because of two things.
1. she said to Alan the impotence spell only worked because he believed it. i.e his impotence was psychological. This was pretty much admittence that even she didnt really believe she had powers
2. she had a crush on everett he didnt feel the same way so she cast a love spell and sent that little heart charm. Everett stated that he didnt believe in that sort of thing. if she actually had powers the love spell would have worked
It's nice to see some people complain that it wasn't all tied up neatly for them, or it wasn't absolutely obvious. That was, of course, the intention.
In terms of ideas and encouraging people to work at it, this reminded me of Line of Duty last year - personally I like that BBC1 now has these occasional treat-em-like-adult dramas.
I also find the discussion here really encouraging.
I think this is a really good overview, I'm suprised at how many people are calling the Everett storyline a loose end. I thought it was pretty clear he would not be charged, the loss of evidence and Linus' smile at the end was pointing to it.
The most complete storyline was probably Malcom Spicer and his Wife (who is brilliant btw) I'm happy that she had a good ending.
I also thought Charlotte bit herself, she was upset and confused by her parents behaviour, the only real loose end is what happened to Seth, I assume Hattie's father beat him badly and either took him to hospital or killed him. I don't really mind not knowing I think the main plots were tied up quite well, or well enough for us to piece it all together.
Of course, after Seth's death, the May Queen was seemingly 'reborn', and on her bike again. The May Queen is also seen as a relic of the olde days of tree worship. Seth/Green Man engineered his death in order to facilitate the rebirth.
So, it seems you've really got to knew yer pagan to link up all the associations - but I would assume Seth died on the same tree alter/stump like wot his Queen did.
Have to agree with that. One of the most common complaints from posters on here is how programmes are "dumbed down" too much for their liking.
Then when one comes along that makes you have to use your brain and think about it a bit they complain that the ending isn't all neatly parceled up with a pink ribbon tied around it for them. Makes you laugh, really. :rolleyes:
hahahahaha
Oh now that's an interesting and very credible interpretation