Here's a question, for those against players born in other nations representing England, how would you feel if somebody from Gibraltar or the Falklands was good enough to play for the national team? Would you consider them English enough?
Here's a question, for those against players born in other nations representing England, how would you feel if somebody from Gibraltar or the Falklands was good enough to play for the national team? Would you consider them English enough?
But, the point I was making was that Arteta was born outside of this country, just like other players, and other players have played for us without this discussion, so I don't see a difference between him and say Barnes, one was bon in Jamica, the other Spain, just because one comes over here, a little bit earlier in their life than the other, doesn't make one more "English" than the other.
If you are going to say that Arteta shouldn't play for England, because he is Spanish, then I presume you think that Barnes should have played for Jamica, as he wasn't English either then?
But, the point I was making was that Arteta was born outside of this country, just like other players, and other players have played for us without this discussion, so I don't see a difference between him and say Barnes, one was bon in Jamica, the other Spain, just because one comes over here, a little bit earlier in their life than the other, doesn't make one more "English" than the other.
If you are going to say that Arteta shouldn't play for England, because he is Spanish, then I presume you think that Barnes should have played for Jamica, as he wasn't English either then?
No.
Did Barnes move to England before he even thought about football?
Did Barnes move to England before he even thought about football?
So, how long do you judge someone to be eligible for a country? At what age, is someone allowed to move to another country, and play for that national team? 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30? Just because Barnes moved here at an earlier age than Arteta, is that really a reason to deny Arteta a place in the England sqaud/team?
So, how long do you judge someone to be eligible for a country? At what age, is someone allowed to move to another country, and play for that national team? 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30? Just because Barnes moved here at an earlier age than Arteta, is that really a reason to deny Arteta a place in the England sqaud/team?
I think the move should come first.
Do i really need to explain the difference between Barnes and Arteta?
If he is eligible and wants to play, then call him up.
France, Portugal, Germany have all had foreign born naturalized citizens play for them, heck even Croatia have Eduardo.
To me there's not much difference between Arteta and someone like the Canadian Owen Hargreaves. Who learnt all his football in Canada and Germany. He may of had English ancestry but he hadn't even kicked a ball in England before being called up.
It's modern sport, look at the England cricket team. No one would accuse Kevin Pieterson of not giving his all for the team when he plays. Why should football be any different.
To me there's not much difference between Arteta and someone like the Canadian Owen Hargreaves. Who learnt all his football in Canada and Germany. He may of had English ancestry but he hadn't even kicked a ball in England before being called up.
But, the point I was making was that Arteta was born outside of this country, just like other players, and other players have played for us without this discussion, so I don't see a difference between him and say Barnes, one was bon in Jamica, the other Spain, just because one comes over here, a little bit earlier in their life than the other, doesn't make one more "English" than the other.
If you are going to say that Arteta shouldn't play for England, because he is Spanish, then I presume you think that Barnes should have played for Jamica, as he wasn't English either then?
Big difference. John Barnes was in England since a child was he not, Arteta six yrs during his footy career.
The main difference would be that with Germany, though foreign born, came through the German youth/coaching system. If Arteta had moved here when he was a kid under 12, played for say Charlton's academy and the various England youth teams then fair enough.
Spaniards should only play for Spain, Poles should only play for Poland and Englishmen should only play for England. It's a no-brainer. You should no more be able to change nationalities as you can your age.
Failure to adhere to this is why international football has no credibility and is a lost cause - the spirit has gone and is the reason why I want to see inter-league tournaments where it's impossible to cheat as to who represents who - replace international football
Oh behave. It's the same logic the right/far right come out with when they fumble about on who's 'really' British enough not to be 'sent home'. He has lived here for 5 years. If he has British citizenship, He. Is. A. British. Citizen. This idea that we've got English 'blood' because of our parents.
International football has not lost credibility, you just seem to love banging on and on and on and on about Germany and Ozil. It seems bizarre that if I were to be born into Spanish parents, and spent my entire life living in Britain, embracing British culture from the language to the binge, that you would still say to me I can only represent the Spanish. Why on earth would I be more qualified to represent the Spanish, a country I have nothing to do with, than England (or Scotland, Wales or NI).
Or what about this. What if I was from Ghana. But I was adopted by British parents. I know nothing about Ghana, or my parents which would be the only thing connecting it to me. After a life of living in England with adopted English parents, you would have me play for Ghana only?
The main difference would be that with Germany, though foreign born, came through the German youth/coaching system. If Arteta had moved here when he was a kid under 12, played for say Charlton's academy and the various England youth teams then fair enough.
If it had been tried in another sport and been an utter disaster and fans had revolted then I'd be wary but its worked in cricket.
You have players from all over the world who become so dedicated to a club and its support and its history that I don't see why it couldn't be different to an international level
The main difference would be that with Germany, though foreign born, came through the German youth/coaching system. If Arteta had moved here when he was a kid under 12, played for say Charlton's academy and the various England youth teams then fair enough.
I too am a bit iffy with Arteta nonetheless. British citizenship should entitle him to the same rights and opportunities as any other, and if you deny immigrants some because they're not 'proper', it is a slippery slope. But, when he would be playing clearly because he couldn't get into the Spanish squad, i'd just feel like we're taking rejects.
So if we decide to sell up and go and live the rest of our lives in Iceland , the country -not the Superstore,you're saying after a few years we can be regarded as Icelandic ????
Sorry that's utter nonsense ...
No, I'm saying that if you move to Iceland with your parents as a two year old, you grow up and are educated in Iceland and spend your working life in Iceland, you might just think of yourself as Icelandic.
Oh behave. It's the same logic the right/far right come out with when they fumble about on who's 'really' British enough not to be 'sent home'. He has lived here for 5 years. If he has British citizenship, He. Is. A. British. Citizen. This idea that we've got English 'blood' because of our parents.
I was going to post along these lines yesterday but was a bit wary of opening this thread up in that direction. I'm glad others were braver than I.
C7, you are essentially accussing Arteta of moving to England with the explicit intention of working his way into the Englsh national team. Unless you've read some quote from him to that effect then I fail to see how you can possibly come to that conclusion. And even if he did, what's wrong with that? Does his desire to play for England (if he has any such desire) not count that same as Gerrard or Rooney? If he wants to pull on the England shirt and play for his adopted nation then why shouldn't he? Any argument against quite frankly can be labelled as xenophobic or worse.
I too am a bit iffy with Arteta nonetheless. British citizenship should entitle him to the same rights and opportunities as any other, and if you deny immigrants some because they're not 'proper', it is a slippery slope. But, when he would be playing clearly because he couldn't get into the Spanish squad, i'd just feel like we're taking rejects.
How many of the current England squad would get into the Spanish squad? If those are the new selection criteria then we'd better start getting used to playing with 5 on the pitch at most!
I have never ever mentioned Ozil in any of my posts - are you sure you are quoting the right person?
You're right it was that other guy during the world cup who was on here making a huge thread about it. The rest of my post remains valid though.
I s'pose you could make a weak case saying that the dominance of the English prem means more foreigners are likely to get citizenship because they travel here to play in arguably the best league, therefore making any success of our team based on our money driven, heavily branded and marketed league, rather than any reflection on our ability to play as a nation. But I wouldn't follow that
Did you just COMPLETELY read past the entire argument on the other side? BRITISH. CITIZENSHIP!
Red you have yet to give me your stance on my adopted child from Ghana scenario.
Sorry I missed it after having my views likened to the Hitler Youth and being misquoted about Ozil
I have elsewhere (in the WC thread about Poles playing for Germany) suggested a series of strict criteria that would be applied to everyone regarding which country they can play for. Based on country of birth and nationality of parents. If that couldn't decide it, then 'tie-break' criteria would come into play, using such things as whether a parent has represented a country at international level, nationality of grandparents and so on.
There would be a whole bunch to go through, but would be in the exact same order for everyone, so no one could cheat by opting for a more favourable country - you would not be allowed to choose, it would be chosen for you as determined by the criteria. If it turns out you have an Italian mother and a father from Papua New Guinnea but were born in Spain, but the link to Papua New Guinnea (as determined by the criteria) is stronger - tough luck, you could only ever play for them and never Italy or Spain
So I can't give a straight answer to your question about the adopted Ghanian, but either Ghana or England would be the strong favourite
The bottom line is that no one should ever be allowed to choose the country they can represent
Well he's no less English than f**king Fabio Capello is!!
I find it funny when the people on this forum think it's acceptable for Fabio Capello to manage England and yet are hostile to when it comes to Arteta playing for them. Hypocrites.:D
Arteta at least qualifies through residency should he wish, unlike Fabio.
Comments
Yes...
But, the point I was making was that Arteta was born outside of this country, just like other players, and other players have played for us without this discussion, so I don't see a difference between him and say Barnes, one was bon in Jamica, the other Spain, just because one comes over here, a little bit earlier in their life than the other, doesn't make one more "English" than the other.
If you are going to say that Arteta shouldn't play for England, because he is Spanish, then I presume you think that Barnes should have played for Jamica, as he wasn't English either then?
No.
Did Barnes move to England before he even thought about football?
So, how long do you judge someone to be eligible for a country? At what age, is someone allowed to move to another country, and play for that national team? 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30? Just because Barnes moved here at an earlier age than Arteta, is that really a reason to deny Arteta a place in the England sqaud/team?
I think the move should come first.
Do i really need to explain the difference between Barnes and Arteta?
If he is eligible and wants to play, then call him up.
France, Portugal, Germany have all had foreign born naturalized citizens play for them, heck even Croatia have Eduardo.
To me there's not much difference between Arteta and someone like the Canadian Owen Hargreaves. Who learnt all his football in Canada and Germany. He may of had English ancestry but he hadn't even kicked a ball in England before being called up.
It's modern sport, look at the England cricket team. No one would accuse Kevin Pieterson of not giving his all for the team when he plays. Why should football be any different.
I say if he is good enough pick him.
There is a huge difference.
Big difference. John Barnes was in England since a child was he not, Arteta six yrs during his footy career.
Arteta should not be picked for England.
I was only pointing out that England have already had a "foreigner" play for them.
It's working for Germany after all
The main difference would be that with Germany, though foreign born, came through the German youth/coaching system. If Arteta had moved here when he was a kid under 12, played for say Charlton's academy and the various England youth teams then fair enough.
Oh behave. It's the same logic the right/far right come out with when they fumble about on who's 'really' British enough not to be 'sent home'. He has lived here for 5 years. If he has British citizenship, He. Is. A. British. Citizen. This idea that we've got English 'blood' because of our parents.
International football has not lost credibility, you just seem to love banging on and on and on and on about Germany and Ozil. It seems bizarre that if I were to be born into Spanish parents, and spent my entire life living in Britain, embracing British culture from the language to the binge, that you would still say to me I can only represent the Spanish. Why on earth would I be more qualified to represent the Spanish, a country I have nothing to do with, than England (or Scotland, Wales or NI).
Or what about this. What if I was from Ghana. But I was adopted by British parents. I know nothing about Ghana, or my parents which would be the only thing connecting it to me. After a life of living in England with adopted English parents, you would have me play for Ghana only?
If it had been tried in another sport and been an utter disaster and fans had revolted then I'd be wary but its worked in cricket.
You have players from all over the world who become so dedicated to a club and its support and its history that I don't see why it couldn't be different to an international level
I too am a bit iffy with Arteta nonetheless. British citizenship should entitle him to the same rights and opportunities as any other, and if you deny immigrants some because they're not 'proper', it is a slippery slope. But, when he would be playing clearly because he couldn't get into the Spanish squad, i'd just feel like we're taking rejects.
No, I'm saying that if you move to Iceland with your parents as a two year old, you grow up and are educated in Iceland and spend your working life in Iceland, you might just think of yourself as Icelandic.
Assuming that was the height of sarcasm, well done!
I was going to post along these lines yesterday but was a bit wary of opening this thread up in that direction. I'm glad others were braver than I.
C7, you are essentially accussing Arteta of moving to England with the explicit intention of working his way into the Englsh national team. Unless you've read some quote from him to that effect then I fail to see how you can possibly come to that conclusion. And even if he did, what's wrong with that? Does his desire to play for England (if he has any such desire) not count that same as Gerrard or Rooney? If he wants to pull on the England shirt and play for his adopted nation then why shouldn't he? Any argument against quite frankly can be labelled as xenophobic or worse.
How many of the current England squad would get into the Spanish squad? If those are the new selection criteria then we'd better start getting used to playing with 5 on the pitch at most!
You're right it was that other guy during the world cup who was on here making a huge thread about it. The rest of my post remains valid though.
I s'pose you could make a weak case saying that the dominance of the English prem means more foreigners are likely to get citizenship because they travel here to play in arguably the best league, therefore making any success of our team based on our money driven, heavily branded and marketed league, rather than any reflection on our ability to play as a nation. But I wouldn't follow that
Did you just COMPLETELY read past the entire argument on the other side? BRITISH. CITIZENSHIP!
Red you have yet to give me your stance on my adopted child from Ghana scenario.
Sorry I missed it after having my views likened to the Hitler Youth and being misquoted about Ozil
I have elsewhere (in the WC thread about Poles playing for Germany) suggested a series of strict criteria that would be applied to everyone regarding which country they can play for. Based on country of birth and nationality of parents. If that couldn't decide it, then 'tie-break' criteria would come into play, using such things as whether a parent has represented a country at international level, nationality of grandparents and so on.
There would be a whole bunch to go through, but would be in the exact same order for everyone, so no one could cheat by opting for a more favourable country - you would not be allowed to choose, it would be chosen for you as determined by the criteria. If it turns out you have an Italian mother and a father from Papua New Guinnea but were born in Spain, but the link to Papua New Guinnea (as determined by the criteria) is stronger - tough luck, you could only ever play for them and never Italy or Spain
So I can't give a straight answer to your question about the adopted Ghanian, but either Ghana or England would be the strong favourite
The bottom line is that no one should ever be allowed to choose the country they can represent
I find it funny when the people on this forum think it's acceptable for Fabio Capello to manage England and yet are hostile to when it comes to Arteta playing for them. Hypocrites.:D
Arteta at least qualifies through residency should he wish, unlike Fabio.