Even to dredge the World Club Championship up as any kind of meaningful accolade is embarrassing.
Even the tram honours are not wholly reflective as I'm sure he'd have struggled if it weren't for some equally (and better) players around him.
What's indisputable is that he's been reliable and consistent enough to warrant a regular starting berth in a top Premier League club for a dozen years. That takes some doing. And he's one of a kind in getting on the wrong side of Fergie yet being so critical at the time that United couldn't afford to sell him for the best interests of the club.
Like Giggs, longevity has helped bolster his legendary status, but you've got to be very decent to play at the very top level for that long. There are other United players of his era who are more worthy in terms of talent and big gane impact but Rooney deserves his record and respect for what he's achieved at club level for a very sustained period under a massive spotlight.
Those episodes will hang over him no doubt about that, just like the extra curricula stuff will hang over Giggs, and both their reputations have taken a beating somewhat due to them.
On the pitch at least, both cannot really be faulted.
Rooney has always tried on the pitch t be a leader and his will to always be wanting to score goals has been very impressive all these years.
the idea of Rooney being underrated is hilarious to me, and I won't ever be able to take it seriously. he's had a very good career, and being top-scorer for both England and Man U is no small feat, but he has always been rated, and a lot of the time overrated. at one point, the question of who was the best between himself, Ronaldo and Messi was actually being debated seriously, which seems rather laughable now. yes he has also been criticised heavily, but that isn't because people underrate him, it's because they believe he has under-achieved.
I think he was the most naturally-gifted English player I've seen since Paul Gascoigne, and expected him to end up being one of the best players in the world. outside of a couple of seasons which have proven to be the exception rather than the rule, he hasn't lived up to that in my view. some will point to all the trophies he won, as well as the goal records, as a counter to my view. others will agree in part, and attribute it to him supposedly being shunted around all over the pitch in every position except goalkeeper in order to accommodate others, but in response to both, I don't think he has ever proven himself to be the best player or the main man in any of Man U's most successful teams. at different times Ronaldo, Tevez, Berbatov and Van Persie have all been just that, but Rooney hasn't.
for England, there's just no getting away from the fact that he's been poor in every tournament outside of Euro 2004. those defending him will point to almost everyone else in the England teams also being poor and be absolutely correct, but it doesn't in any way make the criticism any less valid.
for me, yes he's now Man U's top scorer, but had he performed to what I believe is his potential then that record would've been out of sight some time ago rather than him limping over the line now. yes he's won several league titles, domestic cups and the Champions League, but had he performed to what I believe is his potential then I think he'd had undoubtedly been the definitive Premier League player and one of Europe's outstanding players of his era at the very least, as well as contending for the elite individual awards. yes he's England's top scorer, but had he performed to what I believe is his potential, I think we'd have seen more remarkable performances at major tournaments, regardless of how poorly his teammates performed. I think we'd have also seen his performances serve to elevate those of his teammates.
when all is said and done, I don't think he can be considered a Top 10 all-time player for either Man U or England, even though I believe he had the ability to be at or near the top of both lists. he's had a very good career, but he could've been GREAT in my opinion.
You make some very good and reasoned points there Pee, I just would like to ask you if I may, how many goals at club and international level, would he have to score approximately for him in your mind to be considered a great player? He has over 300 combined as it now, so 400, or 500, or maybe more than that?
I am not having a go at you or your views or opinions on this topic, as they are salient and pertinent points, I am just curious that is all.
the idea of Rooney being underrated is hilarious to me, and I won't ever be able to take it seriously. he's had a very good career, and being top-scorer for both England and Man U is no small feat, but he has always been rated, and a lot of the time overrated. at one point, the question of who was the best between himself, Ronaldo and Messi was actually being debated seriously, which seems rather laughable now. yes he has also been criticised heavily, but that isn't because people underrate him, it's because they believe he has under-achieved.
I think he was the most naturally-gifted English player I've seen since Paul Gascoigne, and expected him to end up being one of the best players in the world. outside of a couple of seasons which have proven to be the exception rather than the rule, he hasn't lived up to that in my view. some will point to all the trophies he won, as well as the goal records, as a counter to my view. others will agree in part, and attribute it to him supposedly being shunted around all over the pitch in every position except goalkeeper in order to accommodate others, but in response to both, I don't think he has ever proven himself to be the best player or the main man in any of Man U's most successful teams. at different times Ronaldo, Tevez, Berbatov and Van Persie have all been just that, but Rooney hasn't.
for England, there's just no getting away from the fact that he's been poor in every tournament outside of Euro 2004. those defending him will point to almost everyone else in the England teams also being poor and be absolutely correct, but it doesn't in any way make the criticism any less valid.
for me, yes he's now Man U's top scorer, but had he performed to what I believe is his potential then that record would've been out of sight some time ago rather than him limping over the line now. yes he's won several league titles, domestic cups and the Champions League, but had he performed to what I believe is his potential then I think he'd had undoubtedly been the definitive Premier League player and one of Europe's outstanding players of his era at the very least, as well as contending for the elite individual awards. yes he's England's top scorer, but had he performed to what I believe is his potential, I think we'd have seen more remarkable performances at major tournaments, regardless of how poorly his teammates performed. I think we'd have also seen his performances serve to elevate those of his teammates.
when all is said and done, I don't think he can be considered a Top 10 all-time player for either Man U or England, even though I believe he had the ability to be at or near the top of both lists. he's had a very good career, but he could've been GREAT in my opinion.
There is a lot of that that I couldn't disagree with but for me the crux of it is coming from a flawed standpoint (no offence to you). The expectation on Wayne Rooney to be a world beater based on him bursting on the scene at 18 is unrealistic. On the basis that you believe he should have been one of the best in the world ever then yes he has underachieved along with 99% of players who have ever played the game.
The truth is player bursting on the scene and being hyped up to being potentially world class is a common theme for England and the reality is they don't have anywhere near the career Rooney has had so in my fairly unremarkable opinion he if anything has overachieved for an England footballer in general terms. Build them up and knock them down and all that. I don't think Rooney (or anyone else's career) should be judged by the England hype machine that has piled the pressure on the likes of Gazza, Owen, Beckham etc and then torn them to shreds at the first opportunity. Natural ability of the type that makes you "burst on the scene" in the first place very very rarely leads to a sustained career of that type. Owen was a shadow of the player at 18 by him mid 20s, Gazza was Gazza, Beckham was battered by the press at every turn.
To have a career where you are playing up front for Man Utd for a decade is remarkable. To be Man Utds all time leading goalscorer is remarkable. To get 100+ caps for you country and be its leading scorer whilst captain is remarkable and to have the haul of medals he has picked up along the way is remarkable. By any other standards that is a career at the very least fulfilled and in most cases overachievement. If we agree that he isn't the player he was at 18 then to do all that whilst being a lesser player must be overachievement. The comparisons with Messi and Ronaldo are unfair because by those standards virtually no footballer can come close.
I say all this as someone who is not Rooneys biggest fan and would have sold him in 2013. I mooted the underrated tag myself simply because I think the criticism he gets now is verging on parody. How can a player that is constantly derided, told he shouldn't wear an England shirt, has his performance torn to bits week in week out and generally made out to be almost pub player-esque in his abilities be, at the same time, overrated? He is possibly the most criticised footballer of recent times in this country.
You make some very good and reasoned points there Pee, I just would like to ask you if I may, how many goals at club and international level, would he have to score approximately for him in your mind to be considered a great player? He has over 300 combined as it now, so 400, or 500, or maybe more than that?
I am not having a go at you or your views or opinions on this topic, as they are salient and pertinent points, I am just curious that is all.
the number of goals has very little to do with it, to be honest. he could've scored less goals than now and performed better and more consistently, and I'd have judged him very differently.
Perhaps it was the hat trick on his debut for us, or the long range goal for Everton v Arsenal that made people think he was going to up there with Pele etc, but form like that is just not sustainable for normal humans (I say that to cover people like Messi and Ronaldo).
Rooney is the best talent that we as a country has produced perhaps since Sir Stanley Matthews or a bit later Sir Bobby.
To be England and Manchester United's all time record goal scorer by the age of 31, is quite remarkable, we are talking scoring 300 goals here combined, that is no mean feat at all.
Who knows quite how many goals he will finish with when he retires, but trying to downplay him is just a tad bit wrong.
His range or type of goal scored is quite remarkable as well, but it long range volleys, chips, headers, first time finishes, bicycle/overhead kick, or even scoring from very nearly in his own half, he has practically done it all!
Perhaps it is the old "familiarity breads contempt" situation, where you don't really truly appreciate someone until they are not doing what they are doing any longer, but he does deserve praise for his achievements so far (with the possibility of more still to come).
I don't really know how much more people were expecting or thinking he could possibly be, but he has been quite excellent throughout his career.
Internationally, yes it has not quite panned out for him as it has done at club level, but the same can be said for Messi, and until very recently Ronaldo, so it does show that international football is a very different kind of beast, and you have to have "the luck of the draw" in terms of having good enough teammates to be around to achieve success there.
So I am not really going to say that being his countries all time record is a negative for him, as that honour is never a bad thing.
We just need to take a step back, breath, and just look at Rooney away from the hyperbole, and negative coverage that he has had throughout his career, and say that he has done very, very well to have achieved all that he has done by the age of 31, it is not as if he is 35 or 36, although the way some talk about him, at times you could be mistaken!
What happens after this summer, in terms of his club career (does he stay with us, or go somewhere else), I don't know, but he has very much earned that right to decide for himself, as he has given us great service so far, but he should rightly be regarded as someone who as achieved a heck of a lot.
the number of goals has very little to do with it, to be honest. he could've scored less goals than now and performed better and more consistently, and I'd have judged him very differently.
Surely as someone whose main role throughout most of his career (well up until fairly recently) was to score goals, scoring 300 of them is something of a positive, and for something that is praise worthy?
If he had of done what you are suggesting (scored less and performed better) then we would be talking about a different sort of player to what we have seen?
We can only talk of the player that he has become, and of what he has achieved, what ifs etc can be made for every player, and they don't really help to form a true picture of the players actual career I would say (not having a go at you or your viewpoint, it is nothing personal here).
There is a lot of that that I couldn't disagree with but for me the crux of it is coming from a flawed standpoint (no offence to you). The expectation on Wayne Rooney to be a world beater based on him bursting on the scene at 18 is unrealistic. On the basis that you believe he should have been one of the best in the world ever then yes he has underachieved along with 99% of players who have ever played the game.
The truth is player bursting on the scene and being hyped up to being potentially world class is a common theme for England and the reality is they don't have anywhere near the career Rooney has had so in my fairly unremarkable opinion he if anything has overachieved for an England footballer in general terms. Build them up and knock them down and all that. I don't think Rooney (or anyone else's career) should be judged by the England hype machine that has piled the pressure on the likes of Gazza, Owen, Beckham etc and then torn them to shreds at the first opportunity. Natural ability of the type that makes you "burst on the scene" in the first place very very rarely leads to a sustained career of that type. Owen was a shadow of the player at 18 by him mid 20s, Gazza was Gazza, Beckham was battered by the press at every turn.
To have a career where you are playing up front for Man Utd for a decade is remarkable. To be Man Utds all time leading goalscorer is remarkable. To get 100+ caps for you country and be its leading scorer whilst captain is remarkable and to have the haul of medals he has picked up along the way is remarkable. By any other standards that is a career at the very least fulfilled and in most cases overachievement. If we agree that he isn't the player he was at 18 then to do all that whilst being a lesser player must be overachievement. The comparisons with Messi and Ronaldo are unfair because by those standards virtually no footballer can come close.
I say all this as someone who is not Rooneys biggest fan and would have sold him in 2013. I mooted the underrated tag myself simply because I think the criticism he gets now is verging on parody. How can a player that is constantly derided, told he shouldn't wear an England shirt, has his performance torn to bits week in week out and generally made out to be almost pub player-esque in his abilities be, at the same time, overrated? He is possibly the most criticised footballer of recent times in this country.
all I'll say is that my view of him wasn't based on hype or anything else other than what I saw of him on the pitch. the spectacular goals were one thing, and of course he was strong as an ox, but what set him apart from most other English players, in my mind at least, was his footballing IQ. the vision, the awareness, the instinctiveness and all the other things that can't be taught. Scholes (who was never hyped in that way) and Gerrard (who was) were the only other English players that stood out to me in that way, and the likes of Owen and (especially) Beckham certainly never did. for me at least, this is nothing to do with the hype, as I'm not emotionally invested in English players like that, it's purely a question of ability. I never said or believed Rooney should've been one of the best in the world ever, but he definitely had the ability to be one of the best of his time, and that's not something that's true of 99% of players. I also can't see how or why it would've been unrealistic to think that. it's not just Messi and Ronaldo that his performances pale in comparison to, and limiting the argument to just those two creates a false impression of him having an impossible task. during his career, there are PLENTY that he may have won and scored more than, but who have been better and more important to their teams than he has. it's not just that he hasn't been a "world-beater", can we even consider him to be one of the Top 10 players of the Premier League era? absolutely not. he certainly hasn't been the best player on his own team in his time either.
I can't agree with you that he has overachieved in any way, shape or form. or that he has been underrated. it's only really the 2014 World Cup that his place in the England team and squad has been called into question, and again that is due to him consistently not performing to what people believe his ability to be. that's not underrating, it's underperforming.
Surely as someone whose main role throughout most of his career (well up until fairly recently) was to score goals, scoring 300 of them is something of a positive, and for something that is praise worthy?
If he had of done what you are suggesting (scored less and performed better) then we would be talking about a different sort of player to what we have seen?
We can only talk of the player that he has become, and of what he has achieved, what ifs etc can be made for every player, and they don't really help to form a true picture of the players actual career I would say (not having a go at you or your viewpoint, it is nothing personal here).
you're now arguing purely for the sake of doing so. I've already acknowledged that the goalscoring records are achievements. my argument has never and will never be that he's not scored enough goals, and so your original question to me was a pointless one.
all I'll say is that my view of him wasn't based on hype or anything else other than what I saw of him on the pitch. the spectacular goals were one thing, and of course he was strong as an ox, but what set him apart from most other English players, in my mind at least, was his footballing IQ. the vision, the awareness, the instinctiveness and all the other things that can't be taught. Scholes (who was never hyped in that way) and Gerrard (who was) were the only other English players that stood out to me in that way, and the likes of Owen and (especially) Beckham certainly never did. for me at least, this is nothing to do with the hype, as I'm not emotionally invested in English players like that, it's purely a question of ability. I never said or believed Rooney should've been one of the best in the world ever, but he definitely had the ability to be one of the best of his time, and that's not something that's true of 99% of players. I also can't see how or why it would've been unrealistic to think that. it's not just Messi and Ronaldo that his performances pale in comparison to, and limiting the argument to just those two creates a false impression of him having an impossible task. during his career, there are PLENTY that he may have won and scored more than, but who have been better and more important to their teams than he has. it's not just that he hasn't been a "world-beater", can we even consider him to be one of the Top 10 players of the Premier League era? absolutely not. he certainly hasn't been the best player on his own team in his time either.
I can't agree with you that he has overachieved in any way, shape or form. or that he has been underrated. it's only really the 2014 World Cup that his place in the England team and squad has been called into question, and again that is due to him consistently not performing to what people believe his ability to be. that's not underrating, it's underperforming.
I NEVER say "agree to disagree" but this may be a first. I can see the validity in everything you have said, I just start from a different point of view. I see players burst onto the scene who look brilliant at different things and it doesn't pan out for one reason or another (Owen and probably Fowler being two good examples of careers that didn't have the lifespan that their early ability suggested, but that's just two, I could cite many Man Utd players too just as that is my normal frame of reference) so on that basis I look at Rooneys achievements and cant really have anything but admiration for them.
I do feel his body shape doesn't lend itself to him looking as if he has maxed out his potential in that respect but to suggest that would have made any difference to him? Who knows.
Maybe he could have done more or been a different type of player but again im unsure if that would have led to the same success that he actually achieved had he gone down a different path. Impossible to say I suppose. Interesting to speculate though.
An interesting thread, so far. Reading through I see some points being made which keep coming up, be it in this thread or other Rooney discussions.
"He's failed at international tournaments"
Well, let's ask yourselves this which England players have excelled at said tournaments? If we go back in time, we can include Sir Bobby in 66, Lineker in 86, and then Rooney in 04. Everyone else it could be said has failed, this puts Rooney in an elite group of players already, as opposed to others already. The fact he's subsequently failed since shouldn't be held against him. People have mentioned Gazza, who did well in 90, but was part of a very good team that got us to the semi finals, but did he perform at that level in an international tournament afterwards??
"His off field antics and transfer requests"
Hmm, going off these comments then lets look at other players shall we? Are we suggesting that say George Best can't be classed as a legend due to his off field antics and even early retirements? Even one of Liverpool's finest put in transfer requests before he move to the USA, and has been all over the front pages of the papers for the wrong reasons, so is he not a legend or great to??
"He's never led the team"
I have never understood this to be honest, he has been part of 2 or 3 great United teams, where the team has been built around many great players, it hasn't been built around him. He's always been part of the team, even when Ronaldo exploded from the precocious talent to the real thing, Fergie never built the team around him he went out and added talent to compliment it. He didn't need to lead the team as say Gerrard did at Liverpool, the team around was of such quality that he didn't have to.
"He never reached his potential"
It depends on what level you wish to put Rooney at. When he made his debut, certainly in the UK no one at that point had heard of Ronaldo, even though they made there senior debuts a month or so apart it was Rooney who was performing at the higher level, mainly due to his physical stature, Ronaldo had potential to be developed.
The fact that Ronaldo and Messi have got to the level they have, have perhaps clouded opinions of where we place Rooney in the echelons of greats. Also take into account that the internet and media have made seeing the likes of Ronaldo and Messi perform week in week out, means that we can compare easier than we could in the past to those playing overseas. I've said before that Ronaldo and Messi are on another level to the rest of the world, they are on the top table, and it's not often to get two players of that level playing at once, it's rare to have one. Rooney is on the next table as such, perhaps not the greatest in the world, but one of the best anyway.
Rooney has broken records, won things with his club side, scored goals through out his career, played for the teams he's played with, and done what has been asked of him on the pitch. He has to be regarded as one of the greats, that he isn't performing as he was right now, shouldn't effect the magnitude of what he has done over his career.
you're now arguing purely for the sake of doing so. I've already acknowledged that the goalscoring records are achievements. my argument has never and will never be that he's not scored enough goals, and so your original question to me was a pointless one.
Come on now, we are just having a good talk here about a very noteworthy topic, I was not trying to ask any pointless questions, nor arguing for the sake of doing so.
If you had higher expectations of him, then him not reaching them is not really his fault, as he has just about done as well as could be expected really, well as far as I can think of anyway.
If goalscoring is not something that you particularly think is a problem for him for you, is it the amount of assists, or the amount of ground he covers per match?
Just trying to see quite what more he could have done to reach such a standing that he would have to achieve to get into "great" territory here?
Come on now, we are just having a good talk here about a very noteworthy topic, I was not trying to ask any pointless questions, nor arguing for the sake of doing so.
If you had higher expectations of him, then him not reaching them is not really his fault, as he has just about done as well as could be expected really, well as far as I can think of anyway.
If goalscoring is not something that you particularly think is a problem for him for you, is it the amount of assists, or the amount of ground he covers per match?
Just trying to see quite what more he could have done to reach such a standing that he would have to achieve to get into "great" territory here?
Maradona was beyond 'great'.
I have absolutely no idea how many goals he scored, how many assists he racked up, how much ground he covered, or any other of his 'stats'.
I have absolutely no idea how many goals he scored, how many assists he racked up, how much ground he covered, or any other of his 'stats'.
He was just on a different level.
I am not at all downplaying Maradona, as of course he had undoubted talent, but (and I could be wrong here, so please say if I am) quite how much of his club career did people actually see back when he was playing?
Matches in Spain, Italy and Argentina, were not as easily accessible back then as they are now, so presumably most people will be (not saying you in particular, just talking in a general sense here) basing their judgements on him via his World Cup displays at perhaps just two (86 and 90, as 94 was cut short) World Cups, which is perhaps a bit different to say Rooney, who seems to be judged more on his club form then his international form.
The question then is, how much does the availability of watching someone week in week out, in every possible detail, every misplaced pass, every foul, etc have on them being classed as a great or not?
I can say that I most definitely have not seen Maradona's full career, or anything remotely close to it, so I don't know how many poor matches, or misplaced passes he had etc, but with Rooney being more modern, I think that plays more against him in that respect.
Does the respective technology at the time help or hinder someone in terms of this debate, or discussion point?
If there were similar availability to what we have currently, back when Maradona was still playing, I wonder if that would help or hurt him, in terms of his standing in the pantheon of greats?
Again, I am not trying intentionally or not, to downplay Maradona, he is most definitely up there when talking about the legends of the game.
You don't have to have seen everything with your own eyes to know it to be true, like when you rightly mention Matthews and Charlton as great English players. We know this from relatively brief footage and widespread testimony, likewise with Pele and to a lesser extent Maradona who has much more of his career recorded for posterity. Players from the past aren't lauded just because we don't have the super slo-mo HD compilations of their errors.
You don't have to have seen everything with your own eyes to know it to be true, like when you rightly mention Matthews and Charlton as great English players. We know this from relatively brief footage and widespread testimony, likewise with Pele and to a lesser extent Maradona who has much more of his career recorded for posterity. Players from the past aren't lauded just because we don't have the super slo-mo HD compilations of their errors.
You do of course make some very good points there, and yes it is entirely correct to say what you have said, however without being able to see quite how bad on their poor days Matthews, Charlton etc were, (as all players have off days), then I do think that does go or play into their favour somewhat.
People who experienced first hand players like Matthews etc, who were around before cameras at games were commonplace, will perhaps tend to gloss over their poor games, and just speak of their good games more favourably.
That is a lot harder to do with someone like Rooney, who has had their poor games available for the world to see and watch, and so there really is no hiding place for them.
If in 20 or 30 years I were to talk about Rooney in glowing terms of endearment, and talk about how good he was, quite rightly people could point to poor games that he has had, or what he did wrong etc, it is a lot harder to do with the players where there is less footage of their whole careers.
I am not trying to downplay anyone here, as players like Charlton, Matthews, Maradona were all of course very, very talented players, and richly deserve their respective praise, just pondering things here that is all.
If you're not trying to downplay certain players, supposing that they had numerous flaws that were glossed over because the cameras weren't everywhere probably isn't the best tact. If the players weren't great or faded they wouldn't be remembered as they are, it's not a selective thing in those cases.
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Even the tram honours are not wholly reflective as I'm sure he'd have struggled if it weren't for some equally (and better) players around him.
What's indisputable is that he's been reliable and consistent enough to warrant a regular starting berth in a top Premier League club for a dozen years. That takes some doing. And he's one of a kind in getting on the wrong side of Fergie yet being so critical at the time that United couldn't afford to sell him for the best interests of the club.
Like Giggs, longevity has helped bolster his legendary status, but you've got to be very decent to play at the very top level for that long. There are other United players of his era who are more worthy in terms of talent and big gane impact but Rooney deserves his record and respect for what he's achieved at club level for a very sustained period under a massive spotlight.
He would.
I was thinking of the first episode in 2010 as well.
On the pitch at least, both cannot really be faulted.
Rooney has always tried on the pitch t be a leader and his will to always be wanting to score goals has been very impressive all these years.
I think he was the most naturally-gifted English player I've seen since Paul Gascoigne, and expected him to end up being one of the best players in the world. outside of a couple of seasons which have proven to be the exception rather than the rule, he hasn't lived up to that in my view. some will point to all the trophies he won, as well as the goal records, as a counter to my view. others will agree in part, and attribute it to him supposedly being shunted around all over the pitch in every position except goalkeeper in order to accommodate others, but in response to both, I don't think he has ever proven himself to be the best player or the main man in any of Man U's most successful teams. at different times Ronaldo, Tevez, Berbatov and Van Persie have all been just that, but Rooney hasn't.
for England, there's just no getting away from the fact that he's been poor in every tournament outside of Euro 2004. those defending him will point to almost everyone else in the England teams also being poor and be absolutely correct, but it doesn't in any way make the criticism any less valid.
for me, yes he's now Man U's top scorer, but had he performed to what I believe is his potential then that record would've been out of sight some time ago rather than him limping over the line now. yes he's won several league titles, domestic cups and the Champions League, but had he performed to what I believe is his potential then I think he'd had undoubtedly been the definitive Premier League player and one of Europe's outstanding players of his era at the very least, as well as contending for the elite individual awards. yes he's England's top scorer, but had he performed to what I believe is his potential, I think we'd have seen more remarkable performances at major tournaments, regardless of how poorly his teammates performed. I think we'd have also seen his performances serve to elevate those of his teammates.
when all is said and done, I don't think he can be considered a Top 10 all-time player for either Man U or England, even though I believe he had the ability to be at or near the top of both lists. he's had a very good career, but he could've been GREAT in my opinion.
I am not having a go at you or your views or opinions on this topic, as they are salient and pertinent points, I am just curious that is all.
There is a lot of that that I couldn't disagree with but for me the crux of it is coming from a flawed standpoint (no offence to you). The expectation on Wayne Rooney to be a world beater based on him bursting on the scene at 18 is unrealistic. On the basis that you believe he should have been one of the best in the world ever then yes he has underachieved along with 99% of players who have ever played the game.
The truth is player bursting on the scene and being hyped up to being potentially world class is a common theme for England and the reality is they don't have anywhere near the career Rooney has had so in my fairly unremarkable opinion he if anything has overachieved for an England footballer in general terms. Build them up and knock them down and all that. I don't think Rooney (or anyone else's career) should be judged by the England hype machine that has piled the pressure on the likes of Gazza, Owen, Beckham etc and then torn them to shreds at the first opportunity. Natural ability of the type that makes you "burst on the scene" in the first place very very rarely leads to a sustained career of that type. Owen was a shadow of the player at 18 by him mid 20s, Gazza was Gazza, Beckham was battered by the press at every turn.
To have a career where you are playing up front for Man Utd for a decade is remarkable. To be Man Utds all time leading goalscorer is remarkable. To get 100+ caps for you country and be its leading scorer whilst captain is remarkable and to have the haul of medals he has picked up along the way is remarkable. By any other standards that is a career at the very least fulfilled and in most cases overachievement. If we agree that he isn't the player he was at 18 then to do all that whilst being a lesser player must be overachievement. The comparisons with Messi and Ronaldo are unfair because by those standards virtually no footballer can come close.
I say all this as someone who is not Rooneys biggest fan and would have sold him in 2013. I mooted the underrated tag myself simply because I think the criticism he gets now is verging on parody. How can a player that is constantly derided, told he shouldn't wear an England shirt, has his performance torn to bits week in week out and generally made out to be almost pub player-esque in his abilities be, at the same time, overrated? He is possibly the most criticised footballer of recent times in this country.
the number of goals has very little to do with it, to be honest. he could've scored less goals than now and performed better and more consistently, and I'd have judged him very differently.
Rooney is the best talent that we as a country has produced perhaps since Sir Stanley Matthews or a bit later Sir Bobby.
To be England and Manchester United's all time record goal scorer by the age of 31, is quite remarkable, we are talking scoring 300 goals here combined, that is no mean feat at all.
Who knows quite how many goals he will finish with when he retires, but trying to downplay him is just a tad bit wrong.
His range or type of goal scored is quite remarkable as well, but it long range volleys, chips, headers, first time finishes, bicycle/overhead kick, or even scoring from very nearly in his own half, he has practically done it all!
Perhaps it is the old "familiarity breads contempt" situation, where you don't really truly appreciate someone until they are not doing what they are doing any longer, but he does deserve praise for his achievements so far (with the possibility of more still to come).
I don't really know how much more people were expecting or thinking he could possibly be, but he has been quite excellent throughout his career.
Internationally, yes it has not quite panned out for him as it has done at club level, but the same can be said for Messi, and until very recently Ronaldo, so it does show that international football is a very different kind of beast, and you have to have "the luck of the draw" in terms of having good enough teammates to be around to achieve success there.
So I am not really going to say that being his countries all time record is a negative for him, as that honour is never a bad thing.
We just need to take a step back, breath, and just look at Rooney away from the hyperbole, and negative coverage that he has had throughout his career, and say that he has done very, very well to have achieved all that he has done by the age of 31, it is not as if he is 35 or 36, although the way some talk about him, at times you could be mistaken!
What happens after this summer, in terms of his club career (does he stay with us, or go somewhere else), I don't know, but he has very much earned that right to decide for himself, as he has given us great service so far, but he should rightly be regarded as someone who as achieved a heck of a lot.
Surely as someone whose main role throughout most of his career (well up until fairly recently) was to score goals, scoring 300 of them is something of a positive, and for something that is praise worthy?
If he had of done what you are suggesting (scored less and performed better) then we would be talking about a different sort of player to what we have seen?
We can only talk of the player that he has become, and of what he has achieved, what ifs etc can be made for every player, and they don't really help to form a true picture of the players actual career I would say (not having a go at you or your viewpoint, it is nothing personal here).
I can't agree with you that he has overachieved in any way, shape or form. or that he has been underrated. it's only really the 2014 World Cup that his place in the England team and squad has been called into question, and again that is due to him consistently not performing to what people believe his ability to be. that's not underrating, it's underperforming.
I NEVER say "agree to disagree" but this may be a first. I can see the validity in everything you have said, I just start from a different point of view. I see players burst onto the scene who look brilliant at different things and it doesn't pan out for one reason or another (Owen and probably Fowler being two good examples of careers that didn't have the lifespan that their early ability suggested, but that's just two, I could cite many Man Utd players too just as that is my normal frame of reference) so on that basis I look at Rooneys achievements and cant really have anything but admiration for them.
I do feel his body shape doesn't lend itself to him looking as if he has maxed out his potential in that respect but to suggest that would have made any difference to him? Who knows.
Maybe he could have done more or been a different type of player but again im unsure if that would have led to the same success that he actually achieved had he gone down a different path. Impossible to say I suppose. Interesting to speculate though.
"He's failed at international tournaments"
Well, let's ask yourselves this which England players have excelled at said tournaments? If we go back in time, we can include Sir Bobby in 66, Lineker in 86, and then Rooney in 04. Everyone else it could be said has failed, this puts Rooney in an elite group of players already, as opposed to others already. The fact he's subsequently failed since shouldn't be held against him. People have mentioned Gazza, who did well in 90, but was part of a very good team that got us to the semi finals, but did he perform at that level in an international tournament afterwards??
"His off field antics and transfer requests"
Hmm, going off these comments then lets look at other players shall we? Are we suggesting that say George Best can't be classed as a legend due to his off field antics and even early retirements? Even one of Liverpool's finest put in transfer requests before he move to the USA, and has been all over the front pages of the papers for the wrong reasons, so is he not a legend or great to??
"He's never led the team"
I have never understood this to be honest, he has been part of 2 or 3 great United teams, where the team has been built around many great players, it hasn't been built around him. He's always been part of the team, even when Ronaldo exploded from the precocious talent to the real thing, Fergie never built the team around him he went out and added talent to compliment it. He didn't need to lead the team as say Gerrard did at Liverpool, the team around was of such quality that he didn't have to.
"He never reached his potential"
It depends on what level you wish to put Rooney at. When he made his debut, certainly in the UK no one at that point had heard of Ronaldo, even though they made there senior debuts a month or so apart it was Rooney who was performing at the higher level, mainly due to his physical stature, Ronaldo had potential to be developed.
The fact that Ronaldo and Messi have got to the level they have, have perhaps clouded opinions of where we place Rooney in the echelons of greats. Also take into account that the internet and media have made seeing the likes of Ronaldo and Messi perform week in week out, means that we can compare easier than we could in the past to those playing overseas. I've said before that Ronaldo and Messi are on another level to the rest of the world, they are on the top table, and it's not often to get two players of that level playing at once, it's rare to have one. Rooney is on the next table as such, perhaps not the greatest in the world, but one of the best anyway.
Rooney has broken records, won things with his club side, scored goals through out his career, played for the teams he's played with, and done what has been asked of him on the pitch. He has to be regarded as one of the greats, that he isn't performing as he was right now, shouldn't effect the magnitude of what he has done over his career.
Come on now, we are just having a good talk here about a very noteworthy topic, I was not trying to ask any pointless questions, nor arguing for the sake of doing so.
If you had higher expectations of him, then him not reaching them is not really his fault, as he has just about done as well as could be expected really, well as far as I can think of anyway.
If goalscoring is not something that you particularly think is a problem for him for you, is it the amount of assists, or the amount of ground he covers per match?
Just trying to see quite what more he could have done to reach such a standing that he would have to achieve to get into "great" territory here?
Maradona was beyond 'great'.
I have absolutely no idea how many goals he scored, how many assists he racked up, how much ground he covered, or any other of his 'stats'.
He was just on a different level.
I am not at all downplaying Maradona, as of course he had undoubted talent, but (and I could be wrong here, so please say if I am) quite how much of his club career did people actually see back when he was playing?
Matches in Spain, Italy and Argentina, were not as easily accessible back then as they are now, so presumably most people will be (not saying you in particular, just talking in a general sense here) basing their judgements on him via his World Cup displays at perhaps just two (86 and 90, as 94 was cut short) World Cups, which is perhaps a bit different to say Rooney, who seems to be judged more on his club form then his international form.
The question then is, how much does the availability of watching someone week in week out, in every possible detail, every misplaced pass, every foul, etc have on them being classed as a great or not?
I can say that I most definitely have not seen Maradona's full career, or anything remotely close to it, so I don't know how many poor matches, or misplaced passes he had etc, but with Rooney being more modern, I think that plays more against him in that respect.
Does the respective technology at the time help or hinder someone in terms of this debate, or discussion point?
If there were similar availability to what we have currently, back when Maradona was still playing, I wonder if that would help or hurt him, in terms of his standing in the pantheon of greats?
Again, I am not trying intentionally or not, to downplay Maradona, he is most definitely up there when talking about the legends of the game.
You do of course make some very good points there, and yes it is entirely correct to say what you have said, however without being able to see quite how bad on their poor days Matthews, Charlton etc were, (as all players have off days), then I do think that does go or play into their favour somewhat.
People who experienced first hand players like Matthews etc, who were around before cameras at games were commonplace, will perhaps tend to gloss over their poor games, and just speak of their good games more favourably.
That is a lot harder to do with someone like Rooney, who has had their poor games available for the world to see and watch, and so there really is no hiding place for them.
If in 20 or 30 years I were to talk about Rooney in glowing terms of endearment, and talk about how good he was, quite rightly people could point to poor games that he has had, or what he did wrong etc, it is a lot harder to do with the players where there is less footage of their whole careers.
I am not trying to downplay anyone here, as players like Charlton, Matthews, Maradona were all of course very, very talented players, and richly deserve their respective praise, just pondering things here that is all.
Legend warming up