I have also heard that part of the reason that O2 & Vodafone have not been able to renegotiate and extend their contracts with Network rail is due to them putting out a tender process for all companies to provide a 3&4 G network along railway lines. This will be for train operating companies to use for onboard wifi and consumers to use as well so will be big boost for regular commuters.
This is also supported by reports from a friend at BT Openreach who was sent on a job to remove racking equipment from a O2 mast that was being removed as contract had expired In a railways sidings but was told to just cover the end of the fibre and not disconnect from the network as another mast would be going in there in the next 6-12 months
Who said anything about purchase? Many operators provide it for free, including Scotland's national operator. Furthermore, a train is a perfect place to use a laptop or tablet which would require not only decent mobile signal but also tethering and ideally a charger for your handset - neither of which are always available.
I think VF and O2 are committed to shared sites so all masts will be shared in the future. Where I live EE still has its own mast with no sharing with 3 - which clearly highlights how on their agreement not all sites are being shared.
I think VF and O2 are committed to shared sites so all masts will be shared in the future. Where I live EE still has its own mast with no sharing with 3 - which clearly highlights how on their agreement not all sites are being shared.
Is it DC-HSDPA mast ? EE/3 only start to share masts when it has become a MBNL mast because they are a true ran share. Even though MBNL started years ago there still is a few masts left to be upgraded which should be done by end of this year. There is going be a few 2G only masts left but all the 3G ones will be both EE/3 masts.
Arr this is a 2G one. So are they not upgrading 2G sites to make them 3G in the future as surly this is just an increased cost?
They have said they will upgrade the majority of 2G only masts to 3G/4G but some are going remain 2G only if I remember rightly. Hopefully for you the mast in question is not one of them. Not sure why they leaving some as 2G only imagine those in question will be extremely rural masts hopefully they build 4G 800MHz masts in areas where these 2G Only masts are.
They have said they will upgrade the majority of 2G only masts to 3G/4G but some are going remain 2G only if I remember rightly. Hopefully for you the mast in question is not one of them. Not sure why they leaving some as 2G only imagine those in question will be extremely rural masts hopefully they build 4G 800MHz masts in areas where these 2G Only masts are.
Its such an interesting setup really and very strange how its been done. It does seem that EE / Three got the head start on all of this, but with all the different kit specs knocking about this is going to make it hard to achieve maximum economies of scale. This seems to be the opposite with O2 / VF as people report the same constant kit is being installed in vast areas of the network. This will be a slower process but could really save a fortune in the longer term.
It makes sense really for site sharing, however when you get the odd few masts for single operators knocking about, seems to go against the whole notion of the agreement. I guess if it means nearly full coverage for most of the UK then it has to be good for the consumer so long as price competition remains.
They have said they will upgrade the majority of 2G only masts to 3G/4G but some are going remain 2G only if I remember rightly. Hopefully for you the mast in question is not one of them. Not sure why they leaving some as 2G only imagine those in question will be extremely rural masts hopefully they build 4G 800MHz masts in areas where these 2G Only masts are.
Well im 1 mile outside of a major town and the local O2 mast is 1 mile up the road and is still good old GPRS. To get any signal on Vodafone best bet is to stand in the garden or at a window (you guessed it GPRS only)! Given O2s and Vodafones definition of rural appears to be anywhere outside a town or city im not holding my breath!
Well im 1 mile outside of a major town and the local O2 mast is 1 mile up the road and is still good old GPRS. To get any signal on Vodafone best bet is to stand in the garden or at a window (you guessed it GPRS only)! Given O2s and Vodafones definition of rural appears to be anywhere outside a town or city im not holding my breath!
That was me referring to MBNL not Beacon EE/3 normally are pretty good in rural areas.
They have said they will upgrade the majority of 2G only masts to 3G/4G but some are going remain 2G only if I remember rightly. Hopefully for you the mast in question is not one of them. Not sure why they leaving some as 2G only imagine those in question will be extremely rural masts hopefully they build 4G 800MHz masts in areas where these 2G Only masts are.
Yes, indeed. At the end of the network "refresh" only a tiny number of sites will remain 2G only, a fraction of a percent. That said there are still over a thousand masts still to be decommissioned so they could just as well achieve that figure by turning off 2G masts.
Its such an interesting setup really and very strange how its been done. It does seem that EE / Three got the head start on all of this, but with all the different kit specs knocking about this is going to make it hard to achieve maximum economies of scale. This seems to be the opposite with O2 / VF as people report the same constant kit is being installed in vast areas of the network. This will be a slower process but could really save a fortune in the longer term.
It makes sense really for site sharing, however when you get the odd few masts for single operators knocking about, seems to go against the whole notion of the agreement. I guess if it means nearly full coverage for most of the UK then it has to be good for the consumer so long as price competition remains.
The headstart is what's actually causing all this. EE/3 (MBNL) got a headstart on the 3G share via 3-T-Mobile sharing almost a decade ago. That RAN share actually consolidated both networks' equipment to be all the same and got rid of the mish-mash of different kit specs, but that was only for 3G. They could not do the same for 2G because 3 has no 2G, and the 2G/4G refresh kit required by EE isn't wanted by 3. Hence T-Mobile retained their own existing 2G kit on their network, some of which is now getting pretty ancient.
It's because EE/3 have a recently refreshed and more up-to-date, consolidated 3G network without a mish-mash of different kit that it doesn't need to be upgraded again. That's why each operator is installing new kit for 4G only rather than integrated units like O2/VF.
It's only because O2/VF's network share so far has not shared equipment that they have ended up now with a giant mix of different equipment - and to be fair, even without the share each operator used a pretty considerable mix of different kit and vendors on their own - which is why the Beacon refresh is pulling all of that out and replacing it with a single integrated piece of kit for 2G, 3G and 4G. Furthermore it's giving their 3G networks an extensive, and much needed upgrade in the process, which EE/3 don't need to do.
While EE/3 are rolling out 4G on different kit for now, it'd be interesting to see what happens in 5-10 years time, when the current MBNL NSN 3G equipment becomes obsolete. Will they just switch it off, or will there be another round of consolidation and upgrades? In either case in that time O2/VF will have consolidated their 2G/3G/4G infrastructure into a single modular piece of kit, much like EE/3 have done with 3G now. Yet at the same time EE/3 will be left with a mish-mash of different kit and vendors on each site, much like VF/O2 are now, the exact opposite situation.
Basically VF/O2 are doing what EE/3 did 5 years ago and EE/3 are doing what VF/O2 did 5 years ago...
Well im 1 mile outside of a major town and the local O2 mast is 1 mile up the road and is still good old GPRS. To get any signal on Vodafone best bet is to stand in the garden or at a window (you guessed it GPRS only)! Given O2s and Vodafones definition of rural appears to be anywhere outside a town or city im not holding my breath!
From my experience of areas where O2 & VF have launched 4G it seems the 4G situation is the exact opposite of 3G.
You can drive 4 miles out from the city bypass and still find O2/VF have upgraded all their masts to 4G while EE have none. O2 & VF have about twice as much rural coverage outside the city as EE/MBNL. EE 4G has very good coverage in the city but they seem to have defined covering the city equates to upgrading every mast within the city bypass to 4G and stopping dead, completely ignoring all masts in rural towns and villages that just metres outside the bypass.
They've clearly made a business decision to not upgrade any masts outside the city (for now) and leave all surrounding rural areas on an older technology.
Which ironically sounds like what you're getting on O2/VF 3G.
Who said anything about purchase? Many operators provide it for free, including Scotland's national operator. Furthermore, a train is a perfect place to use a laptop or tablet which would require not only decent mobile signal but also tethering and ideally a charger for your handset - neither of which are always available.
XC charge for Wi-Fi and VT charge for Wi-Fi. I'd say the installation of more line side masts improving coverage would see a decrease in demand for train Wi-Fi.
From my experience of areas where O2 & VF have launched 4G it seems the 4G situation is the exact opposite of 3G.
You can drive 4 miles out from the city bypass and still find O2/VF have upgraded all their masts to 4G while EE have none. O2 & VF have about twice as much rural coverage outside the city as EE/MBNL. EE 4G has very good coverage in the city but they seem to have defined covering the city equates to upgrading every mast within the city bypass to 4G and stopping dead, completely ignoring all masts in rural towns and villages that just metres outside the bypass.
They've clearly made a business decision to not upgrade any masts outside the city (for now) and leave all surrounding rural areas on an older technology.
Which ironically sounds likes of what you're getting on O2/VF 3G.
Yeah they both have very different 4G rollouts not just in terms of kit but in terms of how they turning on. Obviously in the end It likely doesn't matter still think Three has the weirdest rollout of any.
Interesting reading about the networks and how they work. So O2/VF are going to share kit to broadcast all their services (2g,3g,4g) which makes real sense if it can be done within budget and improving network coverage.
So are Three actually building a separate 4g network to EE or just choosing to switch on sites at a later date for their kit?
Also what happens to the EE 2g only sites. IE assuming they are upgraded to offer 2g and 3g would the 3g part then see Three sharing these new mast sites?
There is going be a few 2G only masts left but all the 3G ones will be both EE/3 masts.
I assumed those would be in locations where getting decent backhaul was insanely expensive (either fibre or microwave unavailable). So backhaul'd on something like a 2mbps E1 or whatever is already in place. Better to have voice and 2G data, than no service. Hopefully few and far between
XC charge for Wi-Fi and VT charge for Wi-Fi. I'd say the installation of more line side masts improving coverage would see a decrease in demand for train Wi-Fi.
Neither operator come anywhere near me, meanwhile the TOCs around here are:
As for line side masts improving coverage, I'd say the exact opposite, it will massively increase demand for on-train WiFi, primarily due to the fact that it'll actually be useable.
Interesting reading about the networks and how they work. So O2/VF are going to share kit to broadcast all their services (2g,3g,4g) which makes real sense if it can be done within budget and improving network coverage.
So are Three actually building a separate 4g network to EE or just choosing to switch on sites at a later date for their kit?
Define "separate network"
The physical grid (masts) will be the same but the actual 4G bit comes from separate boxes attached to existing masts.
I assumed those would be in locations where getting decent backhaul was insanely expensive (either fibre or microwave unavailable). So backhaul'd on something like a 2mbps E1 or whatever is already in place. Better to have voice and 2G data, than no service. Hopefully few and far between
Yeah that was what I thought would be the case. Or perhaps some are in areas where MIP masts are going to be built or another possibility is they are planning have a 800MHz mast in that area in the future.
Comments
Land.
Many of Vodafone & O2's sites stand on land owned by Network Rail.
Very similar though the main difference is on 4G MBNL do not share equipment between EE & 3 and MBNL do not share equipment between 3G & 4G either.
This is also supported by reports from a friend at BT Openreach who was sent on a job to remove racking equipment from a O2 mast that was being removed as contract had expired In a railways sidings but was told to just cover the end of the fibre and not disconnect from the network as another mast would be going in there in the next 6-12 months
Who in their right mind would purchase train Wi-Fi with a decent mobile signal?
Is it DC-HSDPA mast ? EE/3 only start to share masts when it has become a MBNL mast because they are a true ran share. Even though MBNL started years ago there still is a few masts left to be upgraded which should be done by end of this year. There is going be a few 2G only masts left but all the 3G ones will be both EE/3 masts.
They have said they will upgrade the majority of 2G only masts to 3G/4G but some are going remain 2G only if I remember rightly. Hopefully for you the mast in question is not one of them. Not sure why they leaving some as 2G only imagine those in question will be extremely rural masts hopefully they build 4G 800MHz masts in areas where these 2G Only masts are.
Its such an interesting setup really and very strange how its been done. It does seem that EE / Three got the head start on all of this, but with all the different kit specs knocking about this is going to make it hard to achieve maximum economies of scale. This seems to be the opposite with O2 / VF as people report the same constant kit is being installed in vast areas of the network. This will be a slower process but could really save a fortune in the longer term.
It makes sense really for site sharing, however when you get the odd few masts for single operators knocking about, seems to go against the whole notion of the agreement. I guess if it means nearly full coverage for most of the UK then it has to be good for the consumer so long as price competition remains.
Well im 1 mile outside of a major town and the local O2 mast is 1 mile up the road and is still good old GPRS. To get any signal on Vodafone best bet is to stand in the garden or at a window (you guessed it GPRS only)! Given O2s and Vodafones definition of rural appears to be anywhere outside a town or city im not holding my breath!
That was me referring to MBNL not Beacon EE/3 normally are pretty good in rural areas.
Agreed MBNL coverage never ceases to amaze me at how many out of the way areas have good 3G coverage. Much more like the thing
Yes, indeed. At the end of the network "refresh" only a tiny number of sites will remain 2G only, a fraction of a percent. That said there are still over a thousand masts still to be decommissioned so they could just as well achieve that figure by turning off 2G masts.
The headstart is what's actually causing all this. EE/3 (MBNL) got a headstart on the 3G share via 3-T-Mobile sharing almost a decade ago. That RAN share actually consolidated both networks' equipment to be all the same and got rid of the mish-mash of different kit specs, but that was only for 3G. They could not do the same for 2G because 3 has no 2G, and the 2G/4G refresh kit required by EE isn't wanted by 3. Hence T-Mobile retained their own existing 2G kit on their network, some of which is now getting pretty ancient.
It's because EE/3 have a recently refreshed and more up-to-date, consolidated 3G network without a mish-mash of different kit that it doesn't need to be upgraded again. That's why each operator is installing new kit for 4G only rather than integrated units like O2/VF.
It's only because O2/VF's network share so far has not shared equipment that they have ended up now with a giant mix of different equipment - and to be fair, even without the share each operator used a pretty considerable mix of different kit and vendors on their own - which is why the Beacon refresh is pulling all of that out and replacing it with a single integrated piece of kit for 2G, 3G and 4G. Furthermore it's giving their 3G networks an extensive, and much needed upgrade in the process, which EE/3 don't need to do.
While EE/3 are rolling out 4G on different kit for now, it'd be interesting to see what happens in 5-10 years time, when the current MBNL NSN 3G equipment becomes obsolete. Will they just switch it off, or will there be another round of consolidation and upgrades? In either case in that time O2/VF will have consolidated their 2G/3G/4G infrastructure into a single modular piece of kit, much like EE/3 have done with 3G now. Yet at the same time EE/3 will be left with a mish-mash of different kit and vendors on each site, much like VF/O2 are now, the exact opposite situation.
Basically VF/O2 are doing what EE/3 did 5 years ago and EE/3 are doing what VF/O2 did 5 years ago...
From my experience of areas where O2 & VF have launched 4G it seems the 4G situation is the exact opposite of 3G.
You can drive 4 miles out from the city bypass and still find O2/VF have upgraded all their masts to 4G while EE have none. O2 & VF have about twice as much rural coverage outside the city as EE/MBNL. EE 4G has very good coverage in the city but they seem to have defined covering the city equates to upgrading every mast within the city bypass to 4G and stopping dead, completely ignoring all masts in rural towns and villages that just metres outside the bypass.
They've clearly made a business decision to not upgrade any masts outside the city (for now) and leave all surrounding rural areas on an older technology.
Which ironically sounds like what you're getting on O2/VF 3G.
XC charge for Wi-Fi and VT charge for Wi-Fi. I'd say the installation of more line side masts improving coverage would see a decrease in demand for train Wi-Fi.
Yeah they both have very different 4G rollouts not just in terms of kit but in terms of how they turning on. Obviously in the end It likely doesn't matter still think Three has the weirdest rollout of any.
So are Three actually building a separate 4g network to EE or just choosing to switch on sites at a later date for their kit?
Also what happens to the EE 2g only sites. IE assuming they are upgraded to offer 2g and 3g would the 3g part then see Three sharing these new mast sites?
I assumed those would be in locations where getting decent backhaul was insanely expensive (either fibre or microwave unavailable). So backhaul'd on something like a 2mbps E1 or whatever is already in place. Better to have voice and 2G data, than no service. Hopefully few and far between
Scotrail who offer it for free:
http://www.scotrail.co.uk/free-wifi
And East Coast who have it partially free (it has been totally free on and off in the past):
http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/wi-fi
As for line side masts improving coverage, I'd say the exact opposite, it will massively increase demand for on-train WiFi, primarily due to the fact that it'll actually be useable.
The physical grid (masts) will be the same but the actual 4G bit comes from separate boxes attached to existing masts.
Yeah that was what I thought would be the case. Or perhaps some are in areas where MIP masts are going to be built or another possibility is they are planning have a 800MHz mast in that area in the future.