According to the Guardian live blog the Ukrainian emergency workers discovered the black box some while ago. It has been found and hasn't been removed by the separatists.
Of course the black box isn't likely to be of much help in identifying who did what.
True, but its a lot easier to claim it was some bizarre mechanical failure type accident when there no Black Box around to show that all was working fine on the plane.
I suspect they are trying to cover up what they did, but the evidence is already out there proving it was pro-Russian separatists. Who supplied them with this type of weaponry? If it came directly from Russia, then Putin will be toast.
The army of the Donetsk People's Republic captured a whole anti-aircraft base in Donetsk on 29th June, there was no need for Russia to have supplied the weapons, the Ukrainian army left them behind:
As tragic as this is is anyone suggesting that civilians were deliberately targeted? If not then this is an accidental killing which unfortunately can and does happen even in modern times where better technology reduces thee chances. The Americans cannot condemn the rebels if it was an honest mistake given the amount of civilians killed in american drone strikes. Whoever did it should just admit it, say it was an honest mistake which it probably was. Because everyone knows accidents happen.
An accident is kids finding an old missile launcher, getting inquisitive, pressing buttons and setting it off. Whoever set this off either intended to hit civilians (unlikely), has no brain cells and it didn't even occur to them it could be civilian, or did it occur to them there was a possibility but shot it down anyway. None of these could really be described as an accident when you have someone purposefully in charge of a missile launcher.
Anyway, I think the phrase you are looking for is collateral damage not 'honest mistake'.
This might be a more plausible scenario as to what happened:
Leaders of the rebels' self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic denied any involvement and said a Ukrainian air force jet had brought down the intercontinental flight.
Last night I was listening to Radio 5 Live and they had military 'experts' on the show talking about the type of surface to air missiles available in that region and they couldn't agree which one was used and what sort of level of knowledge someone would need to fire a rocket and hit a civilian aircraft flying at 30 - 35,000 feet. One expert claimed such missiles were easy to deploy, the other expert claimed it was much harder to track, fire and destroy a target at such height.
A jet fighter shooting down the Malaysian airplane could be a more likely possibility, perhaps.
a few airlines flew that way so you can hardly blame MA.
Nobody forced them to take the war zone route to save a few thousand and nobody made them allow their pilot to fly at the lower end of the safety range.. They seem awfully careless, if not negligent to me. Only an idiot would assume at this point that Malaysia Air errs on the dude of caution when it comes to passenger safety.
Russia's military detected an activated radar belonging to a Ukrainian battery of Buk surface-to-air missiles on Thursday, Russian state TV reports - BBC Monitoring.
All side blaming each other..
The Americans must be monitoring radar and air traffic in the area, then the truth will out..
The Americans must be monitoring radar and air traffic in the area, then the truth will out..
Why are people convinced that information coming from America can be trusted right now? There are already people who will refuse to believe the outcome of any investigation because Moscow has got the black box so why should anyone take Americas word more than Russias?
Why are people convinced that information coming from America can be trusted right now? There are already people who will refuse to believe the outcome of any investigation because Moscow has got the black box so why should anyone take Americas word more than Russias?
Your correct, however I trust anything coming out of Putin or his cronies even less than I do the Americans
A jet fighter shooting down the Malaysian airplane could be a more likely possibility, perhaps.
Except that'd require that a fighter-pilot with years of training and experience decided to launch a missile at a civilian aircraft.
Let's face it, the rebels don't have any air-power of their own and it seems unlikely that the Ukrainian air-force would take it upon themselves to take pot-shots at what they might assume to be Russian planes, even if they think they might be providing supplies to the rebels, for fear of reprisals.
So, all in all, there shouldn't be any reason for the Ukrainian air-force to be getting twitchy trigger fingers during the present hostilities.
It would be a coincidence if so many people going to the same conference ended up travelling to Amsterdam to board the same flight unless they planned to meet up with together. There must be loads of flight per day to Asia to connect to Australia.
Your correct, however I trust anything coming out of Putin or his cronies even less than I do the Americans
That's where we differ I don't trust either of them. The Americans have lied over and over again about war and they are complete hypocrites who arm and fund separatists to "protect civilians" in some countries while condemning Russia for doing the same. Neither cares about civilians it's all about expanding their own influence. Nothing either one says can be trusted right now.
Personally I don't think whoever shot the plane down did it because it was civilian, and I can't see Putin giving a go ahead from behind the scenes to shoot down passenger aircraft. This looks a monumental F'up on behalf of the separatists, thinking they had a huge cargo transport in their sights.
Although I fully condemn what's happened in the Ukraine, the American's have their own history of blowing passenger planes out the sky too...Iran Air 655 for the loss of 290
The important question is where was this missile fired from?
The Ukranians had no control over the assumed area that it was fired from so it couldn't have been them firing at Putin's plane.
And WTF are the Australians sitting on the fence. They had 27 people on board that plane
This world is FUBAR as we used to say when I was a teenager. Haven't thought about it for a while but it springs to mind now.
The thing I find most disturbing is that the people on board will just be forgotten and disrespected like their broken remains. This will become about finger pointing and point scoring instead of getting justice for the poor souls who lost their lives.
Is there any chance the poor people on this plane will have known anything of what was going on? What if the missile exploded near the tail end and the cabin didn't lose oxygen? I can't stop thinking about them and what they may have gone through. I accidentally saw a really graphic body picture on Twitter which hasn't helped.
Nobody forced them to take the war zone route to save a few thousand and nobody made them allow their pilot to fly at the lower end of the safety range.. They seem awfully careless, if not negligent to me. Only an idiot would assume at this point that Malaysia Air errs on the dude of caution when it comes to passenger safety.
If there's a 'safe' height then what's wrong with flying just above it?
Why are people convinced that information coming from America can be trusted right now? There are already people who will refuse to believe the outcome of any investigation because Moscow has got the black box so why should anyone take Americas word more than Russias?
Oh, only because of about 1,000 reasons. <rolleyes>
This world is FUBAR as we used to say when I was a teenager. Haven't thought about it for a while but it springs to mind now.
The thing I find most disturbing is that the people on board will just be forgotten and disrespected like their broken remains. This will become about finger pointing and point scoring instead of getting justice for the poor souls who lost their lives.
Agreed. As I said yesterday, the people involved in this will never be brought to justice. The rebels and Russia will just try to cover the whole thing up. People and evidence will disappear and the rest of the world can do nothing but shout from the sidelines.
Comments
True, but its a lot easier to claim it was some bizarre mechanical failure type accident when there no Black Box around to show that all was working fine on the plane.
The army of the Donetsk People's Republic captured a whole anti-aircraft base in Donetsk on 29th June, there was no need for Russia to have supplied the weapons, the Ukrainian army left them behind:
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?p=73766421#post73766421
I find it very odd that not one English language media outlet reported this.
An accident is kids finding an old missile launcher, getting inquisitive, pressing buttons and setting it off. Whoever set this off either intended to hit civilians (unlikely), has no brain cells and it didn't even occur to them it could be civilian, or did it occur to them there was a possibility but shot it down anyway. None of these could really be described as an accident when you have someone purposefully in charge of a missile launcher.
Anyway, I think the phrase you are looking for is collateral damage not 'honest mistake'.
Last night I was listening to Radio 5 Live and they had military 'experts' on the show talking about the type of surface to air missiles available in that region and they couldn't agree which one was used and what sort of level of knowledge someone would need to fire a rocket and hit a civilian aircraft flying at 30 - 35,000 feet. One expert claimed such missiles were easy to deploy, the other expert claimed it was much harder to track, fire and destroy a target at such height.
A jet fighter shooting down the Malaysian airplane could be a more likely possibility, perhaps.
A hundred. They must have all been based in the Netherlands to all be flying together.
Here's two of them
Joep Lange, AIDS Expert And Former President Of The International AIDS Society, Died In Plane Crash
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/17/joep-lange-dead-aids-expert-plane-crash_n_5597834.html
Pim de Kuijer, my friend and Aids campaigner, killed in MH17 crash
A friend pays tribute to the Dutch citizen killed in airliner shot down over Ukraine, who was an enthusiastic writer and political activist and 'most of all loved by many'
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/pim-de-kuijer-my-friend-and-aids-campaigner-killed-in-malaysia-mh17-crash?CMP=fb_gu
The Americans must be monitoring radar and air traffic in the area, then the truth will out..
Why are people convinced that information coming from America can be trusted right now? There are already people who will refuse to believe the outcome of any investigation because Moscow has got the black box so why should anyone take Americas word more than Russias?
Your correct, however I trust anything coming out of Putin or his cronies even less than I do the Americans
Except that'd require that a fighter-pilot with years of training and experience decided to launch a missile at a civilian aircraft.
Let's face it, the rebels don't have any air-power of their own and it seems unlikely that the Ukrainian air-force would take it upon themselves to take pot-shots at what they might assume to be Russian planes, even if they think they might be providing supplies to the rebels, for fear of reprisals.
So, all in all, there shouldn't be any reason for the Ukrainian air-force to be getting twitchy trigger fingers during the present hostilities.
Not so Schipoll is a Hub Airport.
http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/john-alder-killed-plane-crash-7451321
That's where we differ I don't trust either of them. The Americans have lied over and over again about war and they are complete hypocrites who arm and fund separatists to "protect civilians" in some countries while condemning Russia for doing the same. Neither cares about civilians it's all about expanding their own influence. Nothing either one says can be trusted right now.
Although I fully condemn what's happened in the Ukraine, the American's have their own history of blowing passenger planes out the sky too...Iran Air 655 for the loss of 290
The Ukranians had no control over the assumed area that it was fired from so it couldn't have been them firing at Putin's plane.
And WTF are the Australians sitting on the fence. They had 27 people on board that plane
The thing I find most disturbing is that the people on board will just be forgotten and disrespected like their broken remains. This will become about finger pointing and point scoring instead of getting justice for the poor souls who lost their lives.
If there's a 'safe' height then what's wrong with flying just above it?
Oh, only because of about 1,000 reasons. <rolleyes>
Agreed. As I said yesterday, the people involved in this will never be brought to justice. The rebels and Russia will just try to cover the whole thing up. People and evidence will disappear and the rest of the world can do nothing but shout from the sidelines.