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So what future for Series 1 Thomson TiVo's?
londonman
Posts: 417 Forum Member
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Now that the new VirginMedia TiVo box is starting to be rolled out, what future is there for the loyal user base of existing TiVo owners? Particularly for those who cannot get Virgin cable or do not want Virgin cable.
The monthly sub has been free for quite a while now which does not bode well. Neither does that legal agreement document that came through as a TiVo message recently.
Are TiVo seriously just going to dump their customer base? I have heard rumours that somebody might be trying to continue to provide the EPG guide in the same way that it currently is. But that has to be in the gift of TiVo Inc. as to whether that will fly. Fiddling about with PCs and scripts might be OK for some people but there are many other TiVo users, like me, who just prefer to let TiVo do it.
And what about those who bought the Lifetime Subscription?
Mods..please move to different section if incorrect posting.
The monthly sub has been free for quite a while now which does not bode well. Neither does that legal agreement document that came through as a TiVo message recently.
Are TiVo seriously just going to dump their customer base? I have heard rumours that somebody might be trying to continue to provide the EPG guide in the same way that it currently is. But that has to be in the gift of TiVo Inc. as to whether that will fly. Fiddling about with PCs and scripts might be OK for some people but there are many other TiVo users, like me, who just prefer to let TiVo do it.
And what about those who bought the Lifetime Subscription?
Mods..please move to different section if incorrect posting.
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If you look at the American TiVo services, they have started saying that the 'lifetime subscription' has now come to an end - they appear to have set a time for 'lifetime'.
The numbers of TiVo users in the UK is only tiny (most of whom bought them at less than cost), so in the scheme of things it's really no big deal - although I can see if you still use it, and like it, it's a big deal to you.
Define 'tiny'. Do you have any documented figures? 1? 2? 10? 10000?
Wiki (I know's it's dodgy!) says they only sold around 35,000 units in the UK so you would have to guess how many units are still active 8 years after it was withdrawn from sale but if that is accurate it would be safe to assume it's a relatively low number.
I think some people think Tivo is more mainstream than it actually is, again according to wiki but I have read similar elsewhere it has less than 3m subscribers even in the US where I assume it is a reasonably well known brand.
I think some people think Tivo is more mainstream than it actually is, again according to wiki but I have read similar elsewhere it has less than 3m subscribers even in the US where I assume it is a reasonably well known brand. It's still quite a niche product even there despite being supplied directly by several major cable operators as well as off the shelf.
- but we'll have a 3rd party replacement service up by then:
http://www.tivocentral.co.uk/unofficialtivoguide.php
You'll just need a new drive, or a fresh drive image.
Their financial report for Oct 2010 shows 1.6m subscribers, including 225m "amortized lifetime subs" (i.e. worthless in terms of TiVo's accounts). TiVo reported a loss of $12m in the three months to October and are churning 1-2% of direct subscribers every month, so are in serious need of a supportive partner like Virgin to keep them afloat.
http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=106292&p=quarterlyEarnings
Not really strange at all. TiVo have a customer base in the UK. We were quite happy paying our monthly sub. It was TiVo's decision to stop charging. Seems strange especially if they are losing money as a company. So they see any opportunity to relaunch in the UK with a tie-up with VirginMedia and offer a 'deal' to upgrade. Good idea but ..and several big buts.
Many existing TiVo customers simply do not see any benefit in upgrading. They are happy with what they have. Why should they shell out a large amount of money and a grossly inflated monthly subscription over what they are currently paying for something that they don't want?
Ah but they get a 'deal'. Actually it's a pretty duff deal. So here is one subset of this customer base who are disenfranchised.
The next subset are those who would like to upgrade but cannot because VirginMedia's cable network coverage in the UK is pretty duff. There are even some areas like Hull where another telco has a complete monopoly and so any TiVo users living there are stuffed.
TiVo have been approached as I understand it by several organisations to run the service on a commercial basis for TiVo in the UK thus maintaining continuity of service. TiVo have not even had the courtesy to respond.
So if I was a company that was posting losses, the one thing I would try and do is not alienate a chunk of my user base who are now (like me) telling the world what a lousy company TiVo is.
I also own an S1 TiVo and it is, without a shadow of a doubt, the best and most reliable gadget I've ever bought. Unlike my other Thomson PVR, it works flawlessly. When I ask it to record something, I have 100% faith in it and the on-screen menus and controls are just so intuitive.
I hope the 3rd party service plan comes through. I'd rather pay £100+ to keep my TiVo going than buy a shiny, new unreliable PVR.
I have 99% confidence that it will record anything I ask it to. It even records things I might like and I've discovered quite a few hidden gems that way.
The only time it fails to record is when my Sky box 'locks up', which I can't blame on the Tivo.
Such a shame Tivo are abandoning us.
I don't live anywhere near a VM cable area so an upgrade isn't an option.
You are missing my point. No-one asked TiVo to stop charging us a subscription. The fact that they posted a loss begs a question as to why their management stopped charging.
Second...as has been posted by others, there are many many people who cannot get nor are likely to get Virgin cable and so these people cannot upgrade. That is one subset that TiVo has now alienated.
Third, there are many TiVo users who, although living in a cabled area see no value in being asked to waste money on something that they perceive has no value to them nor to have to pay hefty monthly premiums. The 'deal' to existing TiVo users is a joke. This is another subset that TiVo has alienated.
The phrase 'shooting themselves in the foot' springs to mind.
There is no 'whole platform' to roll out to.
Last, where is your evidence to say 'most' will move to VM boxes. 50% of the country can't even get VirginMedia cable.
As the numbers of TiVo boxes sold was very small (and most were sold at a big loss) presumably it's not a viable operation supporting them - I suspect they have been losing money all the time, and have finally decided to call it a day.
However, we can say that TiVo were approached by several companies to run the service for them on a commercial footing but had no response. We can also certainly say that TiVo are getting a load of bad press over this.
Either they were sold at a loss, or they were making outrageous profits on them at the full price
But it's easy to compare the costs to similar PVR's, such as the Sky+ - or simply estimate the build costs.
Eh? Read my post again - Virgin have said that they intend to eventually replace all their current software with TiVo based EPGs.
I haven't any because I didn't say that. I said that enthusiastic TiVo S1 users with cable will probably want to switch. The rest will need a push, so it's entirely logical to terminate the loss-making S1 subs. Sure, people like you will take the huff and refuse to move but that's not going to harm TiVo as they weren't getting much (if anything) from you anyway. [Edit: see next post]
TiVo are a business and need the Virgin deal to work, so that means getting as many people as possible signed up NOW, not in 12 months time when the novelty of the new boxes has worn off.
So, income from UK subscribers = US$0.45m per quarter
TiVo loss in 3 months to Oct '10 = US$12m.
Even if you were under-estimating and UK paid subs were double that, it still doesn't start to address the problem.
First..your words were "Keep the old service going and there is no incentive for most S1 users to move to Virgin". Now you are backtracking to say "enthusiastic TiVo S1 users with cable"...and yet there is no evidence to support that view.
By ditching Series 1 support does not guarantee everyone will migrate over to the VirginMedia box. Why should they? For many people, the 'value-proposition' to many just does not add up. So people will look at alternative PVR's like Humax etc.
Is that TiVo losses in the UK or across the company? Somehow I doubt that it is the former. Your business logic leaves me perplexed...if you are making a loss than ANY revenue is good. If the cost of servicing this UK user base is greater than the revenue then I agree one would consider the options.
But, i go back to my first question, are you saying that TiVo made a $12m loss in the UK? I think not and therefore your figures are not comparing like with like.
I stand by my logic. Revenue is not everything as businesses often find out to their cost. We don't know how much it costs TiVo to supply EPG services to the UK, but it has to cost something. We also don't know how old the systems are to provide this service - look at the fuss when suggestions disappeared because TiVo ran out of TMS ID numbers: if it wasn't for the persistence of one or two dedicated TiVo staff that understood the original database structures that service would have gone for ever.
PS I haven't seen any evidence from you either to support your claims that TiVo users aren't interested in the new TiVo boxes.
http://blog.tivo.com/2011/02/1123/
Have they tried offereing to pay more?.
Although I doubt TiVo would be interested, even if subscription charges could be increased to make it viable.
There weren't many boxes sold, I suspect only a relatively small percentage of those are left in use, and of those that are, more and more are going to fail and be scrapped - so it's an ever decreasing market.
Plus of course DSO is well under way, which makes analogue TiVo even less use.