In 'Time of the Angels' River mentioned knowing all The Doctor's faces, I think most people thought she meant more than two tbh.
No reason why that can't be kept off-screen. Her 'two birthdays' line in A Good Man Goes To War could hint that she had a multi-Doctor adventure with a few of them.
Captain Jack would have been in 'A Good Man Goes To War' if it weren't for scheduling conflicts so its not like he can't ever return either.
True but that doesn't mean people can't say he should return over River bloody Song.
Firstly, I think rivers story is not done. You are right i saying 'we don't need to see Jim the Fish' but are wrong in saying that we have seen all her important plot points. We have seen her beginnings, lots in the middle, but we have not seen the end. The end is the last time The oldest version of River see's the doctor as far along as he knows her, or to put it another way, the last meeting at derillium. The beatifully described, emotion filled meeting where river see's 'her' doctor for the very last time but is unaware, yet the doctor, and us as an audience if we ever got to see it, are.
If we see that play out in an episode, whether it is for a whole episode or a 5 minute scene, then I will consider the important parts of her story all done, but not until then.
Also, before anyone says it, the name of the doctor supposed goodbye was nothing of the sort. That was a data ghost river, a mere echo of consciousness I believe is how the doctor described it in the library episode. The real river died in the library, the last time the doctor saw her was derillium. And also before anyone says it, the mini scene in which river says the 11 is taking her to derillium does not conclusively prove it happened with 11. For one thing we don't know if they ever actually got there and for another, we don't know they went more than once. It could be he takes her there as there final meeting because it was a favourite place of hers from previous travels. Basically, the meeting could easily be with 12, and I think her story only comes full circle when we see the end she described from the very start.
Also, I very much doubt there would be a show on air 10 years later if RTD hadn't made it the success it is from the start, so I don't know why anyone would say to 'keep him away' from anything. You also say 'let him write a story or some stories if you must' as though it would be some favour to him for Moffat to let him write for the show again when in reality, everyone is so aware of his talent, Moffat openly admits he begs RTD to write an episode every year, he just hasn't accepted yet.
I would argue the key bits of the end have been addressed in some form or another including the Doctor giving River the sonic - we do not specific see that scene however there is strong implication of the Doctor going to that scene. We do not need to see that scene explicitly as I think that scene specifically is best left to the imagination. The key point is that we have seen the scene of the Doctor going to that meeting and for me that is enough. I seem to remember a sadness in the Doctor's eyes when he refers to the trip inferring it was the trip. Yes the Doctor lies but why lie about that? It does not make sense to lie about that. Through out Matt's time as the Doctor his lies served some greater purpose which was always revealed and quite frankly was shocking at hiding his emotions anyway. This is at odds with the scene we refer to hence I argue it remains a valid end scene.
It was strongly implied very early on that River knew multiple Doctor's so who says that all her adventures were with Matt even though it is implied that Matt was "her Doctor"? There was even some hints that the 10th Doctor met an earlier version of River at some point after the Library. We see very little of her body in the aftermath of the Library so why couldn't a future Doctor (by future Doctor I mean any post Library Doctor, though unlikely to be 10) go to point shortly after 10 uploads her mind to download her mind and the upload it back into her mind somehow? Possibly triggering a regeneration? A post Library River is not out of the question but it would unlikely be easy to have her as Alex Kingston or certainly not for long.
I am aware that Moffat regularly begs RTD to return and I wish he wouldn't. I was not a big fan of RTD's writing when I first saw it and that is not about to change now. Yes RTD returned the series and I will forever respect him for that however the number of episodes I consider to be "up there" that he personally wrote can be counted on one hand - the series 1 finale episodes (though I have issues with those episodes they were particularly enjoyable) and Midnight. Yes Rose drew me in but much higher quality episodes have been made since and frankly The End of the World (S1 E2) is one of the nafest bits of writing I have seen in a long time and some that are worse which were also written by RTD himself. In my opinion RTD is welcome to return as a writer if he must but I would prefer it if he didn't as I personally didn't like his general writing style. Then again I wish that Moffat would stop these ridiculous plots and return to Blink/Girl in the Fireplace type writing which I loved during RTD's era. But that's my personal opinion about RTD, feel free to disagree there.
If there's a story for River, sure definitely bring her back for that (and assuming Alex Kingston is available too) but other than that, I'm fine with her being left in the past though.
I would argue the key bits of the end have been addressed in some form or another including the Doctor giving River the sonic - we do not specific see that scene however there is strong implication of the Doctor going to that scene. We do not need to see that scene explicitly as I think that scene specifically is best left to the imagination. The key point is that we have seen the scene of the Doctor going to that meeting and for me that is enough. I seem to remember a sadness in the Doctor's eyes when he refers to the trip inferring it was the trip. Yes the Doctor lies but why lie about that? It does not make sense to lie about that. Through out Matt's time as the Doctor his lies served some greater purpose which was always revealed and quite frankly was shocking at hiding his emotions anyway. This is at odds with the scene we refer to hence I argue it remains a valid end scene.
I'll grant you that it is suggestive enough that if we never see anything else of Rivers end again that we could assume that was the time he took her for their final meeting, but if it really is left like that, to me that would just be yet another example Of Moffat building something up at the start and not bothering to make the end as grand as would have been suggested at the start. Being that I consider River to be one of the stronger elements of his time on the show, I just think that for once he could make her end as grand as suggested and as amazing as how the character herself described in her very first episode.
Plus, with your comments about the doctor being quite emotional in the mini episode, I agree that he didn't appear to be lying or faking anything, but have you considered that perhaps he was genuinely sad because he knew they were heading to derillium and thought that he would be seeing her for the last time, but in the end they don't actually make it there?, or another scenario is that they do indeed make it there but then River starts talking about her plans and he realises that not only does she not mention the library but she actually mentions things he's already heard about as her past from further along versions of her, and hence realises that although they are at derillium, this is not in fact there final meeting there. My point being the scene is suggestive yes, but not concrete or explicit, so if they chose to do her final meeting with 12 there would be nothing already established in her story that would contradict it.
Also, just a question, as I really don't recall this, when exactly did they address river being given the future sonic screwdriver?. I'm sure we haven't seen it on screen since.
It was strongly implied very early on that River knew multiple Doctor's so who says that all her adventures were with Matt even though it is implied that Matt was "her Doctor"? There was even some hints that the 10th Doctor met an earlier version of River at some point after the Library. We see very little of her body in the aftermath of the Library so why couldn't a future Doctor (by future Doctor I mean any post Library Doctor, though unlikely to be 10) go to point shortly after 10 uploads her mind to download her mind and the upload it back into her mind somehow? Possibly triggering a regeneration? A post Library River is not out of the question but it would unlikely be easy to have her as Alex Kingston or certainly not for long. .
We know she had at least one adventure with 10 if nothing else, but your comments about the implication that she had adventures with multiple incarnations, for me, simply backs up why her having at least one story with 12 would be a good thing. I'd like to see her end scene, as i've said, but to be honest i'd be happy to see River in any episode with 12, even if its just a normal adventure she is involved with that is nothing to do with her wider story because, as well as it just being nice to see the character again, it would also really strengthen the idea of her with mulitple incarnations if we'd actually seen her on screen with 3 of them.
I am aware that Moffat regularly begs RTD to return and I wish he wouldn't. I was not a big fan of RTD's writing when I first saw it and that is not about to change now. Yes RTD returned the series and I will forever respect him for that however the number of episodes I consider to be "up there" that he personally wrote can be counted on one hand - the series 1 finale episodes (though I have issues with those episodes they were particularly enjoyable) and Midnight. Yes Rose drew me in but much higher quality episodes have been made since and frankly The End of the World (S1 E2) is one of the nafest bits of writing I have seen in a long time and some that are worse which were also written by RTD himself. In my opinion RTD is welcome to return as a writer if he must but I would prefer it if he didn't as I personally didn't like his general writing style. Then again I wish that Moffat would stop these ridiculous plots and return to Blink/Girl in the Fireplace type writing which I loved during RTD's era. But that's my personal opinion about RTD, feel free to disagree there.
Whilst I personally loved series 1-4 overall, way more so than 5-8 overall and credit RTD as being a large component of their success, you have put your comments across in a fair minded, reasonable way, rather than the many who would just say something along the lines of 'RTD was crap, just 'cause', so although I don't exactly agree with you, I respect your opinion and how you have presented it, and as such don't feel inclined to write a post arguing the point with you either.
No reason why that can't be kept off-screen. Her 'two birthdays' line in A Good Man Goes To War could hint that she had a multi-Doctor adventure with a few of them.
And just as easily she could have an adventure with 12
True but that doesn't mean people can't say he should return over River bloody Song.
There is nothing to say River should take prominence returning over Captain jack, true, but equally there is nothing to say that Jack should take prominence returning over RIver. I like both, and think they are both due a return so I'd be happy to see either or both any time.
OK I'm sold. Perhaps get River and Jack back for a Christmas episode. It would be nice to make something a bit special about one of those episodes.
And while we're on the subject of returning characters. I would personally love to see a multi-Master episode. Or at least one with John Simm and Michelle Gomez. I imagine he would flirt with himself outrageously.
But it isn't needed like Captain Jack's return is. Captain Jack should be treated as the Brigadier of the new series.
There is nothing that constitutes a need for Captain Jack to return. I'd like to see him back, you'd like to see him back, but there isn't a need for it, there's just the notion that some viewers might like it.
Both Jack and River are both occasional companions who have about the same chance and the same right to re-appear. Just because you like Jack but don't like River that dosen't suddenly make him have more of a reason to appear, it just means that you personally would rather see him return than River.
OK I'm sold. Perhaps get River and Jack back for a Christmas episode. It would be nice to make something a bit special about one of those episodes.
And while we're on the subject of returning characters. I would personally love to see a multi-Master episode. Or at least one with John Simm and Michelle Gomez. I imagine he would flirt with himself outrageously.
I agree with everything in this post. Considering the Christmas special is a time, if any, where people are more accepting of a more lighthearted, fun episode, to bring River and Jack back together in a Christmas episode (with a good plot too of course) would be a lot of fun. Just imagine how much publicity and ratings such an episode which could be advertised as the two of them returning would get.
Also, with regards to the multi master episode, after all these years of multi doctor episodes, im surprised it hasn't happened yet. Obviously one done now would only realistically be Simm and Gomez, but since they are the only one's who feel like 'my' masters (although I have enjoyed ainley in the odd classic who I've watched), and there would be a lot of 2005+ only viewers who would feel the same, I think it would be great. If not that it would at least be nice for Simm to come back to film the regeneration so that we could see it in a flashback.
I would personally love to see a multi-Master episode. Or at least one with John Simm and Michelle Gomez. I imagine he would flirt with himself outrageously.
Yes a multi-Master story featuring Jacobi/Simm/Gomez would be rather good I imagine.
But a huge no-no with the flirting with each other idea, there's enough of that 'flirt for the sake of it' as it is from other characters. I want the Master to be a straight man who has a wicked or sadistic sense of humour. I'd much rather listen to them throwing the odd idle threat to each other, coming up with crazy ways how each would fantasise about doing the other 'in', only for 'granddad' Jacobi to stop them bickering, à la The War Doctor.
But it isn't needed like Captain Jack's return is. Captain Jack should be treated as the Brigadier of the new series.
Wow, you're like a broken record. For flip's sake, DB - Jack's return isn't any more needed than River's is and this obsession you seem to have with wanting him to be the new Brigadier has gotten old now. Jack is his own character.
If Moffat wants to bring back Jack and Barrowman is available, it'll happen. Same with River or any other character. Why don't you get that?
And while we're on the subject of returning characters. I would personally love to see a multi-Master episode. Or at least one with John Simm and Michelle Gomez. I imagine he would flirt with himself outrageously.
Guaranteed if Moffat were to write it, after that Children in Need bit with Amy checking herself out.
No reason why that can't be kept off-screen. Her 'two birthdays' line in A Good Man Goes To War could hint that she had a multi-Doctor adventure with a few of them.
The same could be said for any character The Doctor has met previously, he's a time traveller and we don't get to see every adventure he has. Just because you dislike River doesn't mean that the same logic can't be applied to anyone else.
And while we're on the subject of returning characters. I would personally love to see a multi-Master episode. Or at least one with John Simm and Michelle Gomez. I imagine he would flirt with himself outrageously.
Yes please! It has to happen at some point surely? What year is the next Master related anniversary?
I'll grant you that it is suggestive enough that if we never see anything else of Rivers end again that we could assume that was the time he took her for their final meeting, but if it really is left like that, to me that would just be yet another example Of Moffat building something up at the start and not bothering to make the end as grand as would have been suggested at the start. Being that I consider River to be one of the stronger elements of his time on the show, I just think that for once he could make her end as grand as suggested and as amazing as how the character herself described in her very first episode.
I understand what you are arguing here but I personally feel that showing this scene explicitly would undermine the emotion portrayed about the event. I personally feel that much of the power of that scene would be lost as it would not necessarily live up to the expectations. That's not necessarily a problem with the acting rather an issue with the story telling however that is again just my personal take on it.
Plus, with your comments about the doctor being quite emotional in the mini episode, I agree that he didn't appear to be lying or faking anything, but have you considered that perhaps he was genuinely sad because he knew they were heading to derillium and thought that he would be seeing her for the last time, but in the end they don't actually make it there?, or another scenario is that they do indeed make it there but then River starts talking about her plans and he realises that not only does she not mention the library but she actually mentions things he's already heard about as her past from further along versions of her, and hence realises that although they are at derillium, this is not in fact there final meeting there. My point being the scene is suggestive yes, but not concrete or explicit, so if they chose to do her final meeting with 12 there would be nothing already established in her story that would contradict it.
I agree with everything you say apart from that last sentence. I agree I could be wrong in my interpretation of that scene however there is enough there to sate me, so I fundamentally disagree that the scene needs to be concrete or explicit - I would be happier with new, fresh story rather than revisiting this stuff.
Also, just a question, as I really don't recall this, when exactly did they address river being given the future sonic screwdriver?. I'm sure we haven't seen it on screen since.
I could be wrong however I am convinced that he mentioned giving her the sonic either in the derillium scene we're discussing or a scene shortly after it. Either that or one of them mentions him giving her the sonic later on in a later episode though I could be mistaken.
We know she had at least one adventure with 10 if nothing else, but your comments about the implication that she had adventures with multiple incarnations, for me, simply backs up why her having at least one story with 12 would be a good thing. I'd like to see her end scene, as i've said, but to be honest i'd be happy to see River in any episode with 12, even if its just a normal adventure she is involved with that is nothing to do with her wider story because, as well as it just being nice to see the character again, it would also really strengthen the idea of her with mulitple incarnations if we'd actually seen her on screen with 3 of them.
I'm again not disagreeing however I feel the only way River can return is if she returns as a regular, weekly crew member rather than just a one off or her turning up when they feel like it as I feel whilst it worked plot wise during Matt's time it would just cheapen her character and wouldn't work as well. Either that or the story would have to be incredibly powerful and meaningfully add to her storyline but again that's just my opinion on it.
Whilst I personally loved series 1-4 overall, way more so than 5-8 overall and credit RTD as being a large component of their success, you have put your comments across in a fair minded, reasonable way, rather than the many who would just say something along the lines of 'RTD was crap, just 'cause', so although I don't exactly agree with you, I respect your opinion and how you have presented it, and as such don't feel inclined to write a post arguing the point with you either.
I respect that, you may disagree with my reasoning for disliking RTD's storylines however I equally disagree with your reasons for liking them, but that's personal taste and an individual thing. There is no point in arguing over it as because it is opinion neither of us are going to move from our position and frankly rightly so.
Personally I have zero appetite for a River return and I quite like her, I think we have seen and done the best of the character. Its a big universe and we already have to much that returns and that the show come back too.
We have a new Brigadier type character who is also in charge of Unit, his daughter Kate. Jack has interacted with less Doctors than she has.?
Kate Stewart is rubbish and not a strong enough character to be the new Brigadier. Kate Stewart is not going to be used by any showrunners after Moffat, whereas Captain Jack could easily fit into any era just like the Brigadier.
Kate Stewart is rubbish and not a strong enough character to be the new Brigadier. Kate Stewart is not going to be used by any showrunners after Moffat, whereas Captain Jack could easily fit into any era just like the Brigadier.
Please stop this silliness - your personal opinion is not fact.
You simply don't know that Kate Stewart will not be used by any future showrunner. Writing dopey things like this only makes you appear far more foolish than nature intended.
And you seem to derail every thread on this forum with your argumentative nonsense. Please have a little self control.
Personally, I feel it's a bit odd having River apparently known to every Doctor after 10 (or at least quite a few of them, if she has to keep their pictures to get her dates right) and then not show her with any except 11.
Kate Stewart is rubbish and not a strong enough character to be the new Brigadier. Kate Stewart is not going to be used by any showrunners after Moffat, whereas Captain Jack could easily fit into any era just like the Brigadier.
Grow up. You sound like a child stamping his feet and throwing a tantrum because he isn't getting his way. Whether you like it or not, Kate is the Brigadier of sorts right now. That role isn't going to be Jack's now or in the immediate future and the sooner you accept that, the better. Time and time again, you show little you actually know what the show can and will do.
Kate Stewart is rubbish and not a strong enough character to be the new Brigadier. Kate Stewart is not going to be used by any showrunners after Moffat, whereas Captain Jack could easily fit into any era just like the Brigadier.
Your arguments on pretty much every subject seem to be:
This will happen FACT, because it's what I think
This won't happen FACT because I have decided it dosen't seem possible to me
This character has no value in returning on the basis of I don't like them (river, kate stewart.
This character absolutely needs to return on the basis that i'd like to see them (Jack, k-9)
If you look at all the other posts people are saying things like 'I think' or 'i'd like to see this character return/do not want this character to return because......'
You can't possibly have any idea that Kate Stewart won't be used past Moffat. Even the showrunner after Moffat couldn't tell you that him/herself yet because they haven't even been chosen.
I have enjoyed Kate Stewart so far. She's an actual Moffat female creation that you can call strong without her having to be the bossy/action-y/quipp-y type females that Moffat usually writes and proves that there is more than one version of a strong female character. Also Kate Stewart has equally fitted into two doctors era's seemlessly, so already you can't say she was a flash in the pan one doctor gimmick character.
I don't think anyone should be claimed or nicknamed as 'the new brigadier of the show' because all new characters should be able to be respected for their own traits rather than living in the shadow of what characters people compare them to. It's for the same reason that I think they should give it a rest with keep mentioning the brigadier in every single episode she is in. It's like 'ok we get it by now, she's the brigadiers daughter' now just let people like her for the character she is rather than keep putting her in the shadow of a past character.
You simply don't know that Kate Stewart will not be used by any future showrunner. Writing dopey things like this only makes you appear far more foolish than nature intended. .
Well, I don't see what her USP is for future showrunners other than 'She's the Brigadier's daughter'.
Well, I don't see what her USP is for future showrunners other than 'She's the Brigadier's daughter'.
Try she is the strong independent head of UNIT striving to elevate it's position as an organization on an intelligence level, as seen having a good relationship with the doctor, and his respect in two of his incarnations
The 'being the brigadiers daughter' should be a small side note at this point in my opinion. She has proved herself to be a character interesting and intelligent enough to be worth seeing on her own merit. her lineage was just a little tie in to get older viewers on board with her at first, now though, they really don't need to mention who her father is in every single episode the way they keep doing. To me it is the least important thing about her.
Comments
Captain Jack would have been in 'A Good Man Goes To War' if it weren't for scheduling conflicts so its not like he can't ever return either.
True but that doesn't mean people can't say he should return over River bloody Song.
I would argue the key bits of the end have been addressed in some form or another including the Doctor giving River the sonic - we do not specific see that scene however there is strong implication of the Doctor going to that scene. We do not need to see that scene explicitly as I think that scene specifically is best left to the imagination. The key point is that we have seen the scene of the Doctor going to that meeting and for me that is enough. I seem to remember a sadness in the Doctor's eyes when he refers to the trip inferring it was the trip. Yes the Doctor lies but why lie about that? It does not make sense to lie about that. Through out Matt's time as the Doctor his lies served some greater purpose which was always revealed and quite frankly was shocking at hiding his emotions anyway. This is at odds with the scene we refer to hence I argue it remains a valid end scene.
It was strongly implied very early on that River knew multiple Doctor's so who says that all her adventures were with Matt even though it is implied that Matt was "her Doctor"? There was even some hints that the 10th Doctor met an earlier version of River at some point after the Library. We see very little of her body in the aftermath of the Library so why couldn't a future Doctor (by future Doctor I mean any post Library Doctor, though unlikely to be 10) go to point shortly after 10 uploads her mind to download her mind and the upload it back into her mind somehow? Possibly triggering a regeneration? A post Library River is not out of the question but it would unlikely be easy to have her as Alex Kingston or certainly not for long.
I am aware that Moffat regularly begs RTD to return and I wish he wouldn't. I was not a big fan of RTD's writing when I first saw it and that is not about to change now. Yes RTD returned the series and I will forever respect him for that however the number of episodes I consider to be "up there" that he personally wrote can be counted on one hand - the series 1 finale episodes (though I have issues with those episodes they were particularly enjoyable) and Midnight. Yes Rose drew me in but much higher quality episodes have been made since and frankly The End of the World (S1 E2) is one of the nafest bits of writing I have seen in a long time and some that are worse which were also written by RTD himself. In my opinion RTD is welcome to return as a writer if he must but I would prefer it if he didn't as I personally didn't like his general writing style. Then again I wish that Moffat would stop these ridiculous plots and return to Blink/Girl in the Fireplace type writing which I loved during RTD's era. But that's my personal opinion about RTD, feel free to disagree there.
I'll grant you that it is suggestive enough that if we never see anything else of Rivers end again that we could assume that was the time he took her for their final meeting, but if it really is left like that, to me that would just be yet another example Of Moffat building something up at the start and not bothering to make the end as grand as would have been suggested at the start. Being that I consider River to be one of the stronger elements of his time on the show, I just think that for once he could make her end as grand as suggested and as amazing as how the character herself described in her very first episode.
Plus, with your comments about the doctor being quite emotional in the mini episode, I agree that he didn't appear to be lying or faking anything, but have you considered that perhaps he was genuinely sad because he knew they were heading to derillium and thought that he would be seeing her for the last time, but in the end they don't actually make it there?, or another scenario is that they do indeed make it there but then River starts talking about her plans and he realises that not only does she not mention the library but she actually mentions things he's already heard about as her past from further along versions of her, and hence realises that although they are at derillium, this is not in fact there final meeting there. My point being the scene is suggestive yes, but not concrete or explicit, so if they chose to do her final meeting with 12 there would be nothing already established in her story that would contradict it.
Also, just a question, as I really don't recall this, when exactly did they address river being given the future sonic screwdriver?. I'm sure we haven't seen it on screen since.
We know she had at least one adventure with 10 if nothing else, but your comments about the implication that she had adventures with multiple incarnations, for me, simply backs up why her having at least one story with 12 would be a good thing. I'd like to see her end scene, as i've said, but to be honest i'd be happy to see River in any episode with 12, even if its just a normal adventure she is involved with that is nothing to do with her wider story because, as well as it just being nice to see the character again, it would also really strengthen the idea of her with mulitple incarnations if we'd actually seen her on screen with 3 of them.
Whilst I personally loved series 1-4 overall, way more so than 5-8 overall and credit RTD as being a large component of their success, you have put your comments across in a fair minded, reasonable way, rather than the many who would just say something along the lines of 'RTD was crap, just 'cause', so although I don't exactly agree with you, I respect your opinion and how you have presented it, and as such don't feel inclined to write a post arguing the point with you either.
There is nothing to say River should take prominence returning over Captain jack, true, but equally there is nothing to say that Jack should take prominence returning over RIver. I like both, and think they are both due a return so I'd be happy to see either or both any time.
But it isn't needed like Captain Jack's return is. Captain Jack should be treated as the Brigadier of the new series.
And while we're on the subject of returning characters. I would personally love to see a multi-Master episode. Or at least one with John Simm and Michelle Gomez. I imagine he would flirt with himself outrageously.
There is nothing that constitutes a need for Captain Jack to return. I'd like to see him back, you'd like to see him back, but there isn't a need for it, there's just the notion that some viewers might like it.
Both Jack and River are both occasional companions who have about the same chance and the same right to re-appear. Just because you like Jack but don't like River that dosen't suddenly make him have more of a reason to appear, it just means that you personally would rather see him return than River.
I agree with everything in this post. Considering the Christmas special is a time, if any, where people are more accepting of a more lighthearted, fun episode, to bring River and Jack back together in a Christmas episode (with a good plot too of course) would be a lot of fun. Just imagine how much publicity and ratings such an episode which could be advertised as the two of them returning would get.
Also, with regards to the multi master episode, after all these years of multi doctor episodes, im surprised it hasn't happened yet. Obviously one done now would only realistically be Simm and Gomez, but since they are the only one's who feel like 'my' masters (although I have enjoyed ainley in the odd classic who I've watched), and there would be a lot of 2005+ only viewers who would feel the same, I think it would be great. If not that it would at least be nice for Simm to come back to film the regeneration so that we could see it in a flashback.
Yes a multi-Master story featuring Jacobi/Simm/Gomez would be rather good I imagine.
But a huge no-no with the flirting with each other idea, there's enough of that 'flirt for the sake of it' as it is from other characters. I want the Master to be a straight man who has a wicked or sadistic sense of humour. I'd much rather listen to them throwing the odd idle threat to each other, coming up with crazy ways how each would fantasise about doing the other 'in', only for 'granddad' Jacobi to stop them bickering, à la The War Doctor.
Wow, you're like a broken record. For flip's sake, DB - Jack's return isn't any more needed than River's is and this obsession you seem to have with wanting him to be the new Brigadier has gotten old now. Jack is his own character.
If Moffat wants to bring back Jack and Barrowman is available, it'll happen. Same with River or any other character. Why don't you get that?
Guaranteed if Moffat were to write it, after that Children in Need bit with Amy checking herself out.
The same could be said for any character The Doctor has met previously, he's a time traveller and we don't get to see every adventure he has. Just because you dislike River doesn't mean that the same logic can't be applied to anyone else.
We have a new Brigadier type character who is also in charge of Unit, his daughter Kate. Jack has interacted with less Doctors than she has.
Yes please! It has to happen at some point surely? What year is the next Master related anniversary?
I understand what you are arguing here but I personally feel that showing this scene explicitly would undermine the emotion portrayed about the event. I personally feel that much of the power of that scene would be lost as it would not necessarily live up to the expectations. That's not necessarily a problem with the acting rather an issue with the story telling however that is again just my personal take on it.
I agree with everything you say apart from that last sentence. I agree I could be wrong in my interpretation of that scene however there is enough there to sate me, so I fundamentally disagree that the scene needs to be concrete or explicit - I would be happier with new, fresh story rather than revisiting this stuff.
I could be wrong however I am convinced that he mentioned giving her the sonic either in the derillium scene we're discussing or a scene shortly after it. Either that or one of them mentions him giving her the sonic later on in a later episode though I could be mistaken.
I'm again not disagreeing however I feel the only way River can return is if she returns as a regular, weekly crew member rather than just a one off or her turning up when they feel like it as I feel whilst it worked plot wise during Matt's time it would just cheapen her character and wouldn't work as well. Either that or the story would have to be incredibly powerful and meaningfully add to her storyline but again that's just my opinion on it.
I respect that, you may disagree with my reasoning for disliking RTD's storylines however I equally disagree with your reasons for liking them, but that's personal taste and an individual thing. There is no point in arguing over it as because it is opinion neither of us are going to move from our position and frankly rightly so.
Kate Stewart is rubbish and not a strong enough character to be the new Brigadier. Kate Stewart is not going to be used by any showrunners after Moffat, whereas Captain Jack could easily fit into any era just like the Brigadier.
Perhaps you could try rational argument rather than flat assertion.
Could you consider justifying these assertions with something other than "because my opinion is the correct one"?
Please stop this silliness - your personal opinion is not fact.
You simply don't know that Kate Stewart will not be used by any future showrunner. Writing dopey things like this only makes you appear far more foolish than nature intended.
And you seem to derail every thread on this forum with your argumentative nonsense. Please have a little self control.
I'd love to see her with 12.
I'd love Captain Jack back, too, Dalekbuster.
Grow up. You sound like a child stamping his feet and throwing a tantrum because he isn't getting his way. Whether you like it or not, Kate is the Brigadier of sorts right now. That role isn't going to be Jack's now or in the immediate future and the sooner you accept that, the better. Time and time again, you show little you actually know what the show can and will do.
Your arguments on pretty much every subject seem to be:
This will happen FACT, because it's what I think
This won't happen FACT because I have decided it dosen't seem possible to me
This character has no value in returning on the basis of I don't like them (river, kate stewart.
This character absolutely needs to return on the basis that i'd like to see them (Jack, k-9)
If you look at all the other posts people are saying things like 'I think' or 'i'd like to see this character return/do not want this character to return because......'
You can't possibly have any idea that Kate Stewart won't be used past Moffat. Even the showrunner after Moffat couldn't tell you that him/herself yet because they haven't even been chosen.
I have enjoyed Kate Stewart so far. She's an actual Moffat female creation that you can call strong without her having to be the bossy/action-y/quipp-y type females that Moffat usually writes and proves that there is more than one version of a strong female character. Also Kate Stewart has equally fitted into two doctors era's seemlessly, so already you can't say she was a flash in the pan one doctor gimmick character.
I don't think anyone should be claimed or nicknamed as 'the new brigadier of the show' because all new characters should be able to be respected for their own traits rather than living in the shadow of what characters people compare them to. It's for the same reason that I think they should give it a rest with keep mentioning the brigadier in every single episode she is in. It's like 'ok we get it by now, she's the brigadiers daughter' now just let people like her for the character she is rather than keep putting her in the shadow of a past character.
Well, I don't see what her USP is for future showrunners other than 'She's the Brigadier's daughter'.
The 'being the brigadiers daughter' should be a small side note at this point in my opinion. She has proved herself to be a character interesting and intelligent enough to be worth seeing on her own merit. her lineage was just a little tie in to get older viewers on board with her at first, now though, they really don't need to mention who her father is in every single episode the way they keep doing. To me it is the least important thing about her.