Two of the three episods you refer to from the RTD-era are written by Moffat, and by RTD's own admission he barely touched Moffat's scripts.
Your approach to only watching an attractive Doctor seems shallow but each to their own I guess. I'll simply add that Moffat's "style" has quite significantly changed in Series 8. Few could argue that it is definitely more character-driven and harks back to older series in terms of style and structure.
I really struggle to praise or criticise one particular show runner for their 'era' though, as these days it takes so many people to pull a TV show like Doctor Who off that you cannot honestly pin all the efforts to a single man. I grew tired with the direction the show took under Moffat's tenure up until Series 7, and was even tired of his own episodes which I felt were lacklustre. But to his credit Series 8 has been something of a turnaround. It's nothing groundbreaking, but I think that's exactly it - now that Moffat Who isn't trying to outdo itself each and every week it's become massively more consistent and enjoyable. I'm loving the character development (Clara especially), the acting is great, the episodes are diverse even if they're not innovative and there's just a sense of charm about the show again now that it's stopped trying to be a bombastic epic all the time, which it isn't.
I think the point is that when Moffat was only writing the episodes, they were usually very good. Maybe his strength is coming up with imaginitive ideas and scripts, not producing the whole thing. Not that what he's done is bad - some of it has been brilliant, but I just preferred the overall feel of the RTD era.
Regarding the Doctor's attractiveness, see my last post. A character can be attractive even if they're surly and miserable if they bring enough charisma to the part. Peter Capalidi just doesn't do it for me.
I enjoyed RTD's era very much, but the last couple of series resolutions he had were just getting more and more OTT and fairly silly. The reality bomb was such a HUGE threat I just couldn't take it seriously, it felt like RTD was just trying to top everything he'd done before and it just came off as such. Watching everyone turn into the master in Tennants last couple of episodes was hilarious at the time and is even more so now, and his long drawn out death bit really grated on me. To be fair the resolution for the pandorica storyline was pants too as was the impossible girl stuff (which I got bored with well before they resolved it).
I enjoyed RTD's era very much, but the last couple of series resolutions he had were just getting more and more OTT and fairly silly. The reality bomb was such a HUGE threat I just couldn't take it seriously, it felt like RTD was just trying to top everything he'd done before and it just came off as such. Watching everyone turn into the master in Tennants last couple of episodes was hilarious at the time and is even more so now, and his long drawn out death bit really grated on me. To be fair the resolution for the pandorica storyline was pants too as was the impossible girl stuff (which I got bored with well before they resolved it).
Agreed. Apart from the Pandorica which I loved. Everything else for me was spot on. RTD's endings were always so overblown and ridiculous (with S1 and S3 being the exception for me). You can't get worse than reality not existing. It makes the threat too massive, which means when the Doctor ultimately stops it happening, every other small story that we have to panic about loses it's suspense. I think by the time RTD left he was so miserably obvious that he'd ran out of ideas. Bar Waters of Mars those specials with Ten were painful. And everyone turning into the master still doesn't make sense. I always say it's a shame Tennant and RTD didn't leave at the end of S4, I think they'd both have benefitted from that. And then we'd have been spared Ten's whining and RTD's barrel scraping.
Ive been re-watching some of the tennet eps after not having seen them in a long time. I was amazed by how much The RTD period now looks like a children's programme. The look, tone and particularly the acting all feel very child focused. Im not talking about tennet himself but rather all the co-stars (Martha and her family for example seem to be in the CBBC frame of acting). By comparison Mottat's stuff feels much more like a major international TV show.
The look of the show was a shock to the memory. Matt's episodes look beautiful and like they belong on prime-time TV. Tennet's episodes by compassion look basic and rather cartoon-like in places. Im not taking about the CG but things like the lighting, camera angles and sets.
Ive just been watching 'The Lazarus Experiment' and it really does feel like something that would be more at home on CBBC.
Maybe Im being unfair and this isnt a moan but rather just an observation on my part. I loved Tennet's Doctor (still do) but the show doesn't really compare to the Matt Smith times. Anyone else feel this way?
I thought Matt Smith's episodes were a lot more toddler aimed than David Tennant's were. Watching Matt Smith stick his tongue out, talk baby language, and wave his arms and legs in the air, did not appeal to me at all. The childish gags about mops and fezzes were not funny, and I am really glad his era is over, as I couldn't take another season of his nonsense. Silly is fine sometimes, but he was like that ALL the time.
One thing I did notice was, even though I still think he's over-rated, I enjoy Steven Moffat's episodes a lot more when Matt Smith isn't in them, or when all of the attention isn't on the eleventh doctor (as I enjoyed the anniversary episode). I enjoyed Steven's scripts before he became show-runner, but seasons five, six and seven were awful.
I'm really enjoying season eight - without doubt, Steven Moffat's best season since becoming show-runner. I do think that's mostly due to Peter Capaldi though, who's incarnation of the doctor really appeals to me.
Script quality is important, obviously, but good acting does make a difference. Peter Capaldi and David Tennant are/were such great incarnations, they could make mediocre scripts more enjoyable - something Matt Smith was not capable off, which is why I disliked him and his episodes as much as I did.
I much preferred the RTD era if I'm honest. No need for overblown, nonsensical story arcs
Such as Bad Wolf ............. ?
and had great character development.
Only if you like the trashiest of soaps.
I'm not totally going against Moffat, I enjoyed most of series 5. I also think there was poor CGI in both eras, but RTD has much more of an excuse for it because of the drastically lower budget, as well as technology restrictions. I though the CGI in the Van Gogh episode was pretty damn awful as well.
I thought that Moffat started off really well - the first series that he produced mainly (but not wholly) had stories that were good to great. Unfortunately it all fell apart after that and now I would say that it's easily as bad as the RTD era, possibly even worse.
I disagree that giving the characters some sort of identity beyond 'companion' is the same as a soap. Particularly with female characters, audiences would complain if they thought they were thinly characterised, because they would think that the female characters were either token or purely sex object/damsel in distress. RTD was targeting it at families so it made sense that the companion should have a family.
What I liked about RTD was that he quickly established how each companion related to the Doctor without having to slow everything down, whereas Moffat seems to relate the companion to the Doctor by using plot devices rather than the way they interact. Because Clara's plot device only worked for the previous set of regenerations, she doesn't really have a relationship with this Doctor. What I can pick out is that Clara seems to be looking after the Doctor rather than the other way around, hence she comes across as the stronger presence. However it's not clear why she would want to, particularly as he's rude to her and to other people.
Of course, there are different ways of characterisation other than 'Oh this companion will view the Doctor as a father/lover/bezzie mate'. I only watched The X Files up to Season 5 but the relationship between Mulder and Scully was shown through their opposing viewpoints. They both had strong and opposing opinions and that's why they had a good dynamic. I'm not sure that Clara seems to have many opinions on life; the Doctor's seems to be not caring, or seeming not to care, but Clara doesn't come across as a particularly caring person- not more than usual.
Series 5 and 6 was wonderful. Re-watching some of Season 1 is just embarrassing. I mean The Slitheen was just garbage.
I agree with you with series 5, but series 1 was brilliant. Yeah we had silly farting aliens, but it was fun. I hated The Slitheen for ages but I don't know, I have a soft spot for them now. it wasn't that bad.
Agreed. Apart from the Pandorica which I loved. Everything else for me was spot on. RTD's endings were always so overblown and ridiculous (with S1 and S3 being the exception for me). You can't get worse than reality not existing. It makes the threat too massive, which means when the Doctor ultimately stops it happening, every other small story that we have to panic about loses it's suspense. I think by the time RTD left he was so miserably obvious that he'd ran out of ideas. Bar Waters of Mars those specials with Ten were painful. And everyone turning into the master still doesn't make sense. I always say it's a shame Tennant and RTD didn't leave at the end of S4, I think they'd both have benefitted from that. And then we'd have been spared Ten's whining and RTD's barrel scraping.
I liked the end of series 1 and 2, they were both well done and didn't overawe everything that went on during the series itself. The series 3 storyline with Mr Saxon was fun, but the ending was awful with everyone just 'believing' in the Dr and whoops, he can hover. The ending of series 4 got very silly with the master then VERY dragged out with the Dr slowly dying over what felt like an age. The pandorica opens had an anti-climactic ending for me, all that build up then...he escapes. Great. The silence will fall storyline was really different and I liked it, the ending (AGAIN) felt like they lost interest. The impossible girl stuff grated on me well before they resolved it, and I still don't like Clara. I'm sure she's supposed to be clever etc etc blah blah but I dislike her for the same reason I disliked River Song. Instead of just making them the Dr's equal or better in some ways, they make them suddenly 'perfect' for the Dr and treat him like he's an errant child who needs them or he'll fall to bits. River Song's 'spoilers' line really irritated me and I'm glad she won't be seen anymore.
I liked the end of series 1 and 2, they were both well done and didn't overawe everything that went on during the series itself. The series 3 storyline with Mr Saxon was fun, but the ending was awful with everyone just 'believing' in the Dr and whoops, he can hover. The ending of series 4 got very silly with the master then VERY dragged out with the Dr slowly dying over what felt like an age. The pandorica opens had an anti-climactic ending for me, all that build up then...he escapes. Great. The silence will fall storyline was really different and I liked it, the ending (AGAIN) felt like they lost interest. The impossible girl stuff grated on me well before they resolved it, and I still don't like Clara. I'm sure she's supposed to be clever etc etc blah blah but I dislike her for the same reason I disliked River Song. Instead of just making them the Dr's equal or better in some ways, they make them suddenly 'perfect' for the Dr and treat him like he's an errant child who needs them or he'll fall to bits. River Song's 'spoilers' line really irritated me and I'm glad she won't be seen anymore.
I agree. The end of the masters storyline in s3 was really silly. Everyone saying 'Doctor' annoyed me even when I watched it on its first broadcast and I was only 14. I hated that part. But in my opinion it was totally salvaged by The Master refusing to regenerate and The Doctors reaction. Never fails to choke me up.
Oh God I agree about River. I hated her from the off though. So smug and self satisfied. Shut up love!
I think the show, in its current form, is an attempt by Steven Moffat and his team to emulate the more character-driven tone delivered during the first four seasons.
The problem is that the companion is crucial to the success of this approach and there just isn't enough realness to Clara for it to work.
Her entire story was the 'impossible girl' mystery and her life story was (basically) a 60 second montage involving her parents and a leaf.
Compare that to the very real family environments/lives constructed around the likes of Rose, Martha and Donna and you can probably see the issue I have.
With her teaching job and Danny, it feels like this weakness has been acknowledged and some work is now being done to try and bring some realness to Clara. But, for me, it all feels a bit bolted on and last minute.
I know it has not been confirmed that Jenna is leaving at Christmas, but Clara (for me) isn't working and I think its time the show got a new companion. Preferably one without a mystery!
I think the show, in its current form, is an attempt by Steven Moffat and his team to emulate the more character-driven tone delivered during the first four seasons.
The problem is that the companion is crucial to the success of this approach and there just isn't enough realness to Clara for it to work.
Her entire story was the 'impossible girl' mystery and her life story was (basically) a 60 second montage involving her parents and a leaf.
Compare that to the very real family environments/lives constructed around the likes of Rose, Martha and Donna and you can probably see the issue I have.
With her teaching job and Danny, it feels like this weakness has been acknowledged and some work is now being done to try and bring some realness to Clara. But, for me, it all feels a bit bolted on and last minute.
I know it has not been confirmed that Jenna is leaving at Christmas, but Clara (for me) isn't working and I think its time the show got a new companion. Preferably one without a mystery!
I'd agree with pretty much all this.
The key person who, for me, is missing from the DW production team at the moment - and has been since SM took over - is Julie Gardner. Someone experienced who wasn't necessarily a fan of the show back in the day, who can cast an objective eye over what's going on, and say 'no' where appropriate.
I loved Moffat's episodes under her regime but without her, or a similarly weighty equivalent, he's turned into the kid let loose in the sweetie shop and has been allowed to go crazy. RTD's era may have had faults, but it always allowed the show to operate on a number of levels: there was enough for a mainstream audience to latch onto, kids identified with some bits, adults with others plus there were some references to the classic series for the die-hards. Now, it's all about the fans. Big mistake.
Since Moffat took over, the tone of the show has veered more towards Lost, with over-complex story arcs and unnecessarily complicated backstories for companions, who now, more than ever, don't even travel with the Doctor. Like Capaldi, Coleman is a good actor - but what they're both being given to work with is below par. Saturday's episode had the potential to be great, but it was saddled with the pointless 'I hate you'/'I love you' stuff between the two of them.
Clara does indeed need to leave the show ASAP - but so does Moffat … unless he can rediscover what made his first episodes so brilliant. It's great that people of his and RTD's stature have helped revive the show - but the 'old fans' now have such a tight grip on the show that they'll slowly start to strangle it. In the mid-70s, at what's deemed to be the height of its popularity/creativity, it wasn't run by fans - just people with a strong handle on great story-telling for a mainstream audience.
Comments
I think the point is that when Moffat was only writing the episodes, they were usually very good. Maybe his strength is coming up with imaginitive ideas and scripts, not producing the whole thing. Not that what he's done is bad - some of it has been brilliant, but I just preferred the overall feel of the RTD era.
Regarding the Doctor's attractiveness, see my last post. A character can be attractive even if they're surly and miserable if they bring enough charisma to the part. Peter Capalidi just doesn't do it for me.
Agreed. Apart from the Pandorica which I loved. Everything else for me was spot on. RTD's endings were always so overblown and ridiculous (with S1 and S3 being the exception for me). You can't get worse than reality not existing. It makes the threat too massive, which means when the Doctor ultimately stops it happening, every other small story that we have to panic about loses it's suspense. I think by the time RTD left he was so miserably obvious that he'd ran out of ideas. Bar Waters of Mars those specials with Ten were painful. And everyone turning into the master still doesn't make sense. I always say it's a shame Tennant and RTD didn't leave at the end of S4, I think they'd both have benefitted from that. And then we'd have been spared Ten's whining and RTD's barrel scraping.
I thought Matt Smith's episodes were a lot more toddler aimed than David Tennant's were. Watching Matt Smith stick his tongue out, talk baby language, and wave his arms and legs in the air, did not appeal to me at all. The childish gags about mops and fezzes were not funny, and I am really glad his era is over, as I couldn't take another season of his nonsense. Silly is fine sometimes, but he was like that ALL the time.
One thing I did notice was, even though I still think he's over-rated, I enjoy Steven Moffat's episodes a lot more when Matt Smith isn't in them, or when all of the attention isn't on the eleventh doctor (as I enjoyed the anniversary episode). I enjoyed Steven's scripts before he became show-runner, but seasons five, six and seven were awful.
I'm really enjoying season eight - without doubt, Steven Moffat's best season since becoming show-runner. I do think that's mostly due to Peter Capaldi though, who's incarnation of the doctor really appeals to me.
Script quality is important, obviously, but good acting does make a difference. Peter Capaldi and David Tennant are/were such great incarnations, they could make mediocre scripts more enjoyable - something Matt Smith was not capable off, which is why I disliked him and his episodes as much as I did.
Such as Bad Wolf ............. ?
Only if you like the trashiest of soaps.
I thought that Moffat started off really well - the first series that he produced mainly (but not wholly) had stories that were good to great. Unfortunately it all fell apart after that and now I would say that it's easily as bad as the RTD era, possibly even worse.
I disagree that giving the characters some sort of identity beyond 'companion' is the same as a soap. Particularly with female characters, audiences would complain if they thought they were thinly characterised, because they would think that the female characters were either token or purely sex object/damsel in distress. RTD was targeting it at families so it made sense that the companion should have a family.
What I liked about RTD was that he quickly established how each companion related to the Doctor without having to slow everything down, whereas Moffat seems to relate the companion to the Doctor by using plot devices rather than the way they interact. Because Clara's plot device only worked for the previous set of regenerations, she doesn't really have a relationship with this Doctor. What I can pick out is that Clara seems to be looking after the Doctor rather than the other way around, hence she comes across as the stronger presence. However it's not clear why she would want to, particularly as he's rude to her and to other people.
Of course, there are different ways of characterisation other than 'Oh this companion will view the Doctor as a father/lover/bezzie mate'. I only watched The X Files up to Season 5 but the relationship between Mulder and Scully was shown through their opposing viewpoints. They both had strong and opposing opinions and that's why they had a good dynamic. I'm not sure that Clara seems to have many opinions on life; the Doctor's seems to be not caring, or seeming not to care, but Clara doesn't come across as a particularly caring person- not more than usual.
I agree with you with series 5, but series 1 was brilliant. Yeah we had silly farting aliens, but it was fun. I hated The Slitheen for ages but I don't know, I have a soft spot for them now. it wasn't that bad.
I liked the end of series 1 and 2, they were both well done and didn't overawe everything that went on during the series itself. The series 3 storyline with Mr Saxon was fun, but the ending was awful with everyone just 'believing' in the Dr and whoops, he can hover. The ending of series 4 got very silly with the master then VERY dragged out with the Dr slowly dying over what felt like an age. The pandorica opens had an anti-climactic ending for me, all that build up then...he escapes. Great. The silence will fall storyline was really different and I liked it, the ending (AGAIN) felt like they lost interest. The impossible girl stuff grated on me well before they resolved it, and I still don't like Clara. I'm sure she's supposed to be clever etc etc blah blah but I dislike her for the same reason I disliked River Song. Instead of just making them the Dr's equal or better in some ways, they make them suddenly 'perfect' for the Dr and treat him like he's an errant child who needs them or he'll fall to bits. River Song's 'spoilers' line really irritated me and I'm glad she won't be seen anymore.
I agree. The end of the masters storyline in s3 was really silly. Everyone saying 'Doctor' annoyed me even when I watched it on its first broadcast and I was only 14. I hated that part. But in my opinion it was totally salvaged by The Master refusing to regenerate and The Doctors reaction. Never fails to choke me up.
Oh God I agree about River. I hated her from the off though. So smug and self satisfied. Shut up love!
"In your opinion".
I don't recall getting the memo that someone had died and made you the oracle.
Calm down dear.
IT'S JUST A COMMERCIAL, DAMMIT!
RAAAAARRRGHHHH..........................
Seriously everything on a forum is people's opinion. If people stated this on every thread it'd be pointless. It was my opinion. You may not agree.
The problem is that the companion is crucial to the success of this approach and there just isn't enough realness to Clara for it to work.
Her entire story was the 'impossible girl' mystery and her life story was (basically) a 60 second montage involving her parents and a leaf.
Compare that to the very real family environments/lives constructed around the likes of Rose, Martha and Donna and you can probably see the issue I have.
With her teaching job and Danny, it feels like this weakness has been acknowledged and some work is now being done to try and bring some realness to Clara. But, for me, it all feels a bit bolted on and last minute.
I know it has not been confirmed that Jenna is leaving at Christmas, but Clara (for me) isn't working and I think its time the show got a new companion. Preferably one without a mystery!
I'd agree with pretty much all this.
The key person who, for me, is missing from the DW production team at the moment - and has been since SM took over - is Julie Gardner. Someone experienced who wasn't necessarily a fan of the show back in the day, who can cast an objective eye over what's going on, and say 'no' where appropriate.
I loved Moffat's episodes under her regime but without her, or a similarly weighty equivalent, he's turned into the kid let loose in the sweetie shop and has been allowed to go crazy. RTD's era may have had faults, but it always allowed the show to operate on a number of levels: there was enough for a mainstream audience to latch onto, kids identified with some bits, adults with others plus there were some references to the classic series for the die-hards. Now, it's all about the fans. Big mistake.
Since Moffat took over, the tone of the show has veered more towards Lost, with over-complex story arcs and unnecessarily complicated backstories for companions, who now, more than ever, don't even travel with the Doctor. Like Capaldi, Coleman is a good actor - but what they're both being given to work with is below par. Saturday's episode had the potential to be great, but it was saddled with the pointless 'I hate you'/'I love you' stuff between the two of them.
Clara does indeed need to leave the show ASAP - but so does Moffat … unless he can rediscover what made his first episodes so brilliant. It's great that people of his and RTD's stature have helped revive the show - but the 'old fans' now have such a tight grip on the show that they'll slowly start to strangle it. In the mid-70s, at what's deemed to be the height of its popularity/creativity, it wasn't run by fans - just people with a strong handle on great story-telling for a mainstream audience.