The BBC this season did not bother showing the Football League Show when the Championship had a day off !!!
When the BBC last had the FA Cup rights, if I remember rightly the highlights of the 1st two rounds, were just added on to MOTD, I think they shown extended highlights, and then all the goals, so extended the show by about 20 minutes.
With Doctor Who, Strictly and Casualty all on a Saturday night again from the Autumn, the FA Cup highlights from the 1st two rounds, are likely to be on very late, possibly not finishing till around 2 in the morning, if they put MOTD, FLS Championship Highlights and then FA Cup Highlights, unless they use BBC2 to what the channel was originally commisoned for, which was Sports and the arts if I remember.
With the Live games, if matches are live on a Saturday and Sunday lunchtime for Saturdays and Sunday afternoons, that fits in with the BBC's Sporty slots anyway
Because most teams involved will be from the football league, and their fans will be used to getting their highlights from The Football League Show. Totally understand why the FA won't allow it though.
Who's to say they won't allow it? When the BBC had live Football League games they were shown under the Match of the Day Live banner, and when Man U vs Man City was postponed due to snow and played on the night of a full Premier League programme, the Beeb showed both on the same programme. The reason they do a specific Football League Show with its own set and titles and presenter and so on is almost certainly because it's an independent production and they want to hit quotas for independent productions on the Beeb. If they wanted it on MOTD, they could do that. I find it highly unlikely the FA Cup coverage next season will be an independent production so I am 99% certain it will be shown on Match of the Day.
Similarly in 2008-09, when ITV had both the Football League and FA Cup, there was at least one highlights show which featured both the FA Cup and League Cup. In the first two rounds, though, they had the FA Cup highlights on a Saturday night and The Championship, as usual, on a Sunday morning, seemingly for convenience's sakes more than anything.
Could Sky have shown Swansea v Chelsea at noon if they had wanted to?
Not really, because the original schedule for this weekend had Arsenal vs West Ham at noon but that was obviously dropped when Arsenal were in the semi-finals. It's not as if this is the first time Sky have shown a Premier League match against the FA Cup semi-finals, in 2011 they showed Liverpool vs Arsenal against Bolton vs Stoke on ESPN, which I'm thinking was a far more attractive fixture than Swansea vs Chelsea. And in 2008, they also showed Liverpool vs Arsenal against West Brom vs Portsmouth on the BBC - when they still had the rights to the FA Cup!
The 2005 semi-final on BBC was Manchester United 4-1 Newcastle United, which kicked off at 1:00 on a Sunday, rather than an extra-time/penalties encounter on Saturday teatime.
Iv no idea about that 2005 , but the 10.6 million was a peak figure. The actual average for the whole broadcast was 5.03 million. It was a great peak but it must also be considered that it was a rareish situation of extra time plus penalties and probably also swelled by people tuning in for Britains Got Talent which was delayed by 45 mins or so. Unusual situation which paid off handsomely for ITV, but not necessarily due entirely to the pull of the football.
It was actually a 3pm kick-off, that 2005 semi-final, but obviously it's still a totally different situation to a match in primetime that goes to extra time into the slot for a massively popular series. The best comparison would be, I would suggest, the 2007 semi-final between Manchester United and Watford which was a Saturday 5.15 kick-off, featured a big team against a minnow and had an attractive lead-out in Doctor Who - which got 6.1 million viewers across the whole broadcast. And that didn't have a penalty shoot-out at 7.45pm to pull up the audience. http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14062982&postcount=1256
When the BBC last had the FA Cup rights, if I remember rightly the highlights of the 1st two rounds, were just added on to MOTD, I think they shown extended highlights, and then all the goals, so extended the show by about 20 minutes.
With Doctor Who, Strictly and Casualty all on a Saturday night again from the Autumn, the FA Cup highlights from the 1st two rounds, are likely to be on very late, possibly not finishing till around 2 in the morning, if they put MOTD, FLS Championship Highlights and then FA Cup Highlights
Not sure why this scheduling is becoming such a major issue, on these occasions the Football League Show will obviously be half the length they usually are, so if you give the FA Cup first round forty minutes or so that would be exactly the same length as you usually get on a normal Saturday. People will manage - and have recorders.
Also, there has to be some flexibility in the contract, because it was suggested by ariusuk here - http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showpost.php?p=69445172&postcount=68 - that the highlights have to be between 10.30 and 11.30, but this season ITV showed the second round highlights at midnight. If the FA want people to bid for the rights to show the competition, they have to have a bit of leeway, if they force broadcasters into all kinds of stupid clauses and compromises, nobody would buy it.
Where as ITV only tend to do like 15 minutes preview sometimes, I guess if the game BBC choose was on a Saturday or Sunday lunchtime, they could either have Focus or Score before the ties, possibly based at the grounds, so they can have a fuller build up.
I guess the FA aren't currently happy with having to have a replay at a dafty time like 8:10 just to keep ITV and its Corrie watchers happy. I think the BBC are probably more flexible in there schedules, and may move Eastenders into like an hour episode on the Thursday or have Tuesday's episode on the Wednesday.
ITV cause they don't have any football programming during the week, they cant advertise it that well, where as the BBC have there News Channel, and BT have shows like SportsHub, where they can advertise.
Don't agree with these much. One of the reasons why ITV's ratings have been a bit depressed is because if anything the build-up has been too long, take Saturday for example when they started at 4.30 - when most viewers were more interested in the results of the other games. The build-up for the teatime games has usually started at 4.45, giving half an hour's build-up, and they've even had half hour build-ups for the first and second round games, starting at 1.30 for a 2pm kick-off, depressing the average audience. The Beeb usually only gave the first and second round games ten minutes build-up at most.
Also, I don't see how 8.10 is "a dafty time". Sky's Monday night games kick off at 8pm, not the familiar 7.45, and people cope with that. When the Beeb had the rights they often too had 8.05 kick-offs so they could start the coverage at 8pm and put something else on before it. Sky's Football League games kick-off at 12.15 which is a bit weird, it's their prerogative. If TV companies are paying for it they should be able to put it in slots that will work for them. They know more about scheduling TV channels than the FA.
There's plenty of opportunity to promote football on ITV, stick a trailer in the middle of Britain's Got Talent and ten million people know about it. The Champions League does absolutely fine and that's never been on the BBC.
What DOES mean it gets overshadowed is when the first and second round highlights are shown against Match of the Day which is a side-effect of the Premier League and FA Cup being on different channels. It was the same problem in reverse when ITV had the Premier League and the BBC had the FA Cup in 2001-04, and it's become more prominent now there are more Premier League matches on TV and there are Premier League fixtures on sixth round weekend every year, which was never previously the case.
Who's to say they won't allow it? When the BBC had live Football League games they were shown under the Match of the Day Live banner, and when Man U vs Man City was postponed due to snow and played on the night of a full Premier League programme, the Beeb showed both on the same programme. The reason they do a specific Football League Show with its own set and titles and presenter and so on is almost certainly because it's an independent production and they want to hit quotas for independent productions on the Beeb. If they wanted it on MOTD, they could do that. I find it highly unlikely the FA Cup coverage next season will be an independent production so I am 99% certain it will be shown on Match of the Day.
Similarly in 2008-09, when ITV had both the Football League and FA Cup, there was at least one highlights show which featured both the FA Cup and League Cup. In the first two rounds, though, they had the FA Cup highlights on a Saturday night and The Championship, as usual, on a Sunday morning, seemingly for convenience's sakes more than anything.
Not really, because the original schedule for this weekend had Arsenal vs West Ham at noon but that was obviously dropped when Arsenal were in the semi-finals. It's not as if this is the first time Sky have shown a Premier League match against the FA Cup semi-finals, in 2011 they showed Liverpool vs Arsenal against Bolton vs Stoke on ESPN, which I'm thinking was a far more attractive fixture than Swansea vs Chelsea. And in 2008, they also showed Liverpool vs Arsenal against West Brom vs Portsmouth on the BBC - when they still had the rights to the FA Cup!
It was actually a 3pm kick-off, that 2005 semi-final, but obviously it's still a totally different situation to a match in primetime that goes to extra time into the slot for a massively popular series. The best comparison would be, I would suggest, the 2007 semi-final between Manchester United and Watford which was a Saturday 5.15 kick-off, featured a big team against a minnow and had an attractive lead-out in Doctor Who - which got 6.1 million viewers across the whole broadcast. And that didn't have a penalty shoot-out at 7.45pm to pull up the audience. http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14062982&postcount=1256
Not sure why this scheduling is becoming such a major issue, on these occasions the Football League Show will obviously be half the length they usually are, so if you give the FA Cup first round forty minutes or so that would be exactly the same length as you usually get on a normal Saturday. People will manage - and have recorders.
Also, there has to be some flexibility in the contract, because it was suggested by ariusuk here - http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showpost.php?p=69445172&postcount=68 - that the highlights have to be between 10.30 and 11.30, but this season ITV showed the second round highlights at midnight. If the FA want people to bid for the rights to show the competition, they have to have a bit of leeway, if they force broadcasters into all kinds of stupid clauses and compromises, nobody would buy it.
Don't agree with these much. One of the reasons why ITV's ratings have been a bit depressed is because if anything the build-up has been too long, take Saturday for example when they started at 4.30 - when most viewers were more interested in the results of the other games. The build-up for the teatime games has usually started at 4.45, giving half an hour's build-up, and they've even had half hour build-ups for the first and second round games, starting at 1.30 for a 2pm kick-off, depressing the average audience. The Beeb usually only gave the first and second round games ten minutes build-up at most.
Also, I don't see how 8.10 is "a dafty time". Sky's Monday night games kick off at 8pm, not the familiar 7.45, and people cope with that. When the Beeb had the rights they often too had 8.05 kick-offs so they could start the coverage at 8pm and put something else on before it. Sky's Football League games kick-off at 12.15 which is a bit weird, it's their prerogative. If TV companies are paying for it they should be able to put it in slots that will work for them. They know more about scheduling TV channels than the FA.
There's plenty of opportunity to promote football on ITV, stick a trailer in the middle of Britain's Got Talent and ten million people know about it. The Champions League does absolutely fine and that's never been on the BBC.
What DOES mean it gets overshadowed is when the first and second round highlights are shown against Match of the Day which is a side-effect of the Premier League and FA Cup being on different channels. It was the same problem in reverse when ITV had the Premier League and the BBC had the FA Cup in 2001-04, and it's become more prominent now there are more Premier League matches on TV and there are Premier League fixtures on sixth round weekend every year, which was never previously the case.
My Comments regarding the 8:10 kick off, is after hearing Greg Dyke say on Saturday , that the FA will be fairly pleased to get rid of ITV.
And I was trying to figure out what issues they had, and one that came into my head was the 8:10 Kick off, ITV daren't kick it off at 7:45, as it wold not go down wel with Corrie Fans
And I asked how often did ITV show a 8:10pm kickoff?
More often than not (at least since 2008, when the FA Cup has being shown on ITV) Corrie and the football have been on different evenings. Infact ITV purposely try to schedule the channel like this.
My Comments regarding the 8:10 kick off, is after hearing Greg Dyke say on Saturday , that the FA will be fairly pleased to get rid of ITV.
And I was trying to figure out what issues they had, and one that came into my head was the 8:10 Kick off, ITV daren't kick it off at 7:45, as it wold not go down wel with Corrie Fans
But they usually showed the replays on Tuesdays, which is not a Corrie day. And when the Beeb had the rights they used to show them on Wednesdays but if it could only be played on a Tuesday, they had an 8.05 kick-off so they could show 'stEnders. And the same will happen next season, I guarantee it.
I seriously doubt that the BBC will do anything really that much different to what ITV will do. They showed the match from a main camara position before, then ITV did, and now the BBC will.
Greg Dyke has to say something though.
Obviously the BBC have a much better website, and a better radio service than ITV do. But that is minor compared to the main thing of showing the matches, which will be no different.
I enjoyed BT's pre match stuff yesterday, liked there interaction with the fans outside of Wembley, who would not want to chat to Lynsey,
When she interviewed the Hull fan who went to the last FA Cup final appearance that Hull went to, she came over as giving Shererd I think the guys name was, time to answer the questions asked, and didn't mind repeating the questions, if he didn't hear what she was saying. I cant imagine anybody from ITV having done that.
Rio Ferdinand came over well as well, he seemed to know his stuff, maybe BT coud tap him up, if when he leaves the football arena
Wonder if Dixon would go back to the BBC, im guessing he left due to lack of times he was needed with the BBC, he then goes to ITV who end up loosing most of the Football they have
Obviously the BBC have a much better website, and a better radio service than ITV do. But that is minor compared to the main thing of showing the matches, which will be no different.
Perhaps, but as I said yesterday, the main thing that seems to concern the FA is how the broadcaster promotes the competition in general and the grass-roots side of it, and the BBC is better equipped with its local and regional network to cover that side in a fuller way than ITV did.
Perhaps, but as I said yesterday, the main thing that seems to concern the FA is how the broadcaster promotes the competition in general and the grass-roots side of it, and the BBC are better equipped with its local and regional network to cover that side in a fuller way than ITV did.
Didn't the BBC before, used to follow a team from either the Qualfying rounds, or 1st round, and Focus, used to follow the team to all there matches.
BBC may also move outside of London for the early rounds.
What could these fantastic changes be then what Greg Dyke was talking about
Wont change a thing. The bigger money pot in the Premier League from the next tv rights auction will only further dimish the FA Cup. Soon you will get Champoinship teams fielding weakened teams too.
Add to that fixture conflicts, police refusing to allow certain matches to be played in prime slots and so on and even when you get a favourable draw it will end up being played at 12.45 on a Saturday or 12 noon on Sundays quite often.
Case in point was the big replay last year played at 12 noon on an Easter Monday. No exactly maximising the competition from a tv perspective.
Wont change a thing. The bigger money pot in the Premier League from the next tv rights auction will only further dimish the FA Cup. Soon you will get Champoinship teams fielding weakened teams too.
Add to that fixture conflicts, police refusing to allow certain matches to be played in prime slots and so on and even when you get a favourable draw it will end up being played at 12.45 on a Saturday or 12 noon on Sundays quite often.
Case in point was the big replay last year played at 12 noon on an Easter Monday. No exactly maximising the competition from a tv perspective.
Think that was to due with fixture congestion more than anything else.
He did say the FA Cup winners qualifying for the UCL would never happen, as it would mean it would have to happen in every cup around Europe, and ithat it is UEFA in charge.
Was it not normally Wembley FC, for obvious reasons?
Could have been its obviously been a few seasons, but I do remember Focus used to follow a team from like the 1st qualifying round, which is normally like the first Saturday of the season
Was it not normally Wembley FC, for obvious reasons?
It was indeed. Plus when ESPN had the rights they showed a couple of their games live, as they'd signed up a load of 'legends' to play in the cup for them.
I guess for viewers not having to put up with Adrian Chiles, Lee Dixon, Roy Keane etc will be a bonus.
We will instead have Gary Lineker, im guessing Manish Bashin will also be used, he seems favor of the month with the BBC.
I'll reword that for you; "Manish Bhasin may also be used; he seems to be flavour of the month with the BBC"
Or is he? If he was, he sure as hell wouldn't still be doing the Football League Show on the Saturday night graveyard shift; more like MOTD2 or Final Score.
Speaking of Final Score, Jason Mohammad, the regular presenter of that programme, hosted MOTD2 Extra yesterday lunchtime, as Mark Chapman was at the US Masters golf. Ironically, Chapman could well be doing FS for the next couple of weeks as "J-Mo" will be at the Snooker World Championship in Sheffield.
Hull has one sole broadband supplier, although OFCOM say it is not a monopoly - despite the fact that anyone wanting to enter the Hull market has to pay full market price - whereas BT have to offer their network to competitors at wholesale prices.
Weird that there are posters all over Hull for SKY broadband - who do not supply in the area.
Hull has one sole broadband supplier, although OFCOM say it is not a monopoly - despite the fact that anyone wanting to enter the Hull market has to pay full market price - whereas BT have to offer their network to competitors at wholesale prices.
Weird that there are posters all over Hull for SKY broadband - who do not supply in the area.
It isn't a monopoly because anybody else can come into Hull, nobody is stopping them. They are stopping themselves due to the cost to lay down their own lines.
Comments
When the BBC last had the FA Cup rights, if I remember rightly the highlights of the 1st two rounds, were just added on to MOTD, I think they shown extended highlights, and then all the goals, so extended the show by about 20 minutes.
With Doctor Who, Strictly and Casualty all on a Saturday night again from the Autumn, the FA Cup highlights from the 1st two rounds, are likely to be on very late, possibly not finishing till around 2 in the morning, if they put MOTD, FLS Championship Highlights and then FA Cup Highlights, unless they use BBC2 to what the channel was originally commisoned for, which was Sports and the arts if I remember.
With the Live games, if matches are live on a Saturday and Sunday lunchtime for Saturdays and Sunday afternoons, that fits in with the BBC's Sporty slots anyway
Who's to say they won't allow it? When the BBC had live Football League games they were shown under the Match of the Day Live banner, and when Man U vs Man City was postponed due to snow and played on the night of a full Premier League programme, the Beeb showed both on the same programme. The reason they do a specific Football League Show with its own set and titles and presenter and so on is almost certainly because it's an independent production and they want to hit quotas for independent productions on the Beeb. If they wanted it on MOTD, they could do that. I find it highly unlikely the FA Cup coverage next season will be an independent production so I am 99% certain it will be shown on Match of the Day.
Similarly in 2008-09, when ITV had both the Football League and FA Cup, there was at least one highlights show which featured both the FA Cup and League Cup. In the first two rounds, though, they had the FA Cup highlights on a Saturday night and The Championship, as usual, on a Sunday morning, seemingly for convenience's sakes more than anything.
Not really, because the original schedule for this weekend had Arsenal vs West Ham at noon but that was obviously dropped when Arsenal were in the semi-finals. It's not as if this is the first time Sky have shown a Premier League match against the FA Cup semi-finals, in 2011 they showed Liverpool vs Arsenal against Bolton vs Stoke on ESPN, which I'm thinking was a far more attractive fixture than Swansea vs Chelsea. And in 2008, they also showed Liverpool vs Arsenal against West Brom vs Portsmouth on the BBC - when they still had the rights to the FA Cup!
It was actually a 3pm kick-off, that 2005 semi-final, but obviously it's still a totally different situation to a match in primetime that goes to extra time into the slot for a massively popular series. The best comparison would be, I would suggest, the 2007 semi-final between Manchester United and Watford which was a Saturday 5.15 kick-off, featured a big team against a minnow and had an attractive lead-out in Doctor Who - which got 6.1 million viewers across the whole broadcast. And that didn't have a penalty shoot-out at 7.45pm to pull up the audience.
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14062982&postcount=1256
Not sure why this scheduling is becoming such a major issue, on these occasions the Football League Show will obviously be half the length they usually are, so if you give the FA Cup first round forty minutes or so that would be exactly the same length as you usually get on a normal Saturday. People will manage - and have recorders.
Also, there has to be some flexibility in the contract, because it was suggested by ariusuk here - http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showpost.php?p=69445172&postcount=68 - that the highlights have to be between 10.30 and 11.30, but this season ITV showed the second round highlights at midnight. If the FA want people to bid for the rights to show the competition, they have to have a bit of leeway, if they force broadcasters into all kinds of stupid clauses and compromises, nobody would buy it.
Don't agree with these much. One of the reasons why ITV's ratings have been a bit depressed is because if anything the build-up has been too long, take Saturday for example when they started at 4.30 - when most viewers were more interested in the results of the other games. The build-up for the teatime games has usually started at 4.45, giving half an hour's build-up, and they've even had half hour build-ups for the first and second round games, starting at 1.30 for a 2pm kick-off, depressing the average audience. The Beeb usually only gave the first and second round games ten minutes build-up at most.
Also, I don't see how 8.10 is "a dafty time". Sky's Monday night games kick off at 8pm, not the familiar 7.45, and people cope with that. When the Beeb had the rights they often too had 8.05 kick-offs so they could start the coverage at 8pm and put something else on before it. Sky's Football League games kick-off at 12.15 which is a bit weird, it's their prerogative. If TV companies are paying for it they should be able to put it in slots that will work for them. They know more about scheduling TV channels than the FA.
There's plenty of opportunity to promote football on ITV, stick a trailer in the middle of Britain's Got Talent and ten million people know about it. The Champions League does absolutely fine and that's never been on the BBC.
What DOES mean it gets overshadowed is when the first and second round highlights are shown against Match of the Day which is a side-effect of the Premier League and FA Cup being on different channels. It was the same problem in reverse when ITV had the Premier League and the BBC had the FA Cup in 2001-04, and it's become more prominent now there are more Premier League matches on TV and there are Premier League fixtures on sixth round weekend every year, which was never previously the case.
My Comments regarding the 8:10 kick off, is after hearing Greg Dyke say on Saturday , that the FA will be fairly pleased to get rid of ITV.
And I was trying to figure out what issues they had, and one that came into my head was the 8:10 Kick off, ITV daren't kick it off at 7:45, as it wold not go down wel with Corrie Fans
More often than not (at least since 2008, when the FA Cup has being shown on ITV) Corrie and the football have been on different evenings. Infact ITV purposely try to schedule the channel like this.
But they usually showed the replays on Tuesdays, which is not a Corrie day. And when the Beeb had the rights they used to show them on Wednesdays but if it could only be played on a Tuesday, they had an 8.05 kick-off so they could show 'stEnders. And the same will happen next season, I guarantee it.
Greg Dyke has to say something though.
Obviously the BBC have a much better website, and a better radio service than ITV do. But that is minor compared to the main thing of showing the matches, which will be no different.
Or be on the XL package on Virgin Media where its included at no extra charge
We will instead have Gary Lineker, im guessing Manish Bashin will also be used, he seems favor of the month with the BBC.
When she interviewed the Hull fan who went to the last FA Cup final appearance that Hull went to, she came over as giving Shererd I think the guys name was, time to answer the questions asked, and didn't mind repeating the questions, if he didn't hear what she was saying. I cant imagine anybody from ITV having done that.
Rio Ferdinand came over well as well, he seemed to know his stuff, maybe BT coud tap him up, if when he leaves the football arena
I'd have Dixon and Keane over any of the BBC lot.
Wonder if Dixon would go back to the BBC, im guessing he left due to lack of times he was needed with the BBC, he then goes to ITV who end up loosing most of the Football they have
Perhaps, but as I said yesterday, the main thing that seems to concern the FA is how the broadcaster promotes the competition in general and the grass-roots side of it, and the BBC is better equipped with its local and regional network to cover that side in a fuller way than ITV did.
Didn't the BBC before, used to follow a team from either the Qualfying rounds, or 1st round, and Focus, used to follow the team to all there matches.
BBC may also move outside of London for the early rounds.
Wont change a thing. The bigger money pot in the Premier League from the next tv rights auction will only further dimish the FA Cup. Soon you will get Champoinship teams fielding weakened teams too.
Add to that fixture conflicts, police refusing to allow certain matches to be played in prime slots and so on and even when you get a favourable draw it will end up being played at 12.45 on a Saturday or 12 noon on Sundays quite often.
Case in point was the big replay last year played at 12 noon on an Easter Monday. No exactly maximising the competition from a tv perspective.
Think that was to due with fixture congestion more than anything else.
Could have been its obviously been a few seasons, but I do remember Focus used to follow a team from like the 1st qualifying round, which is normally like the first Saturday of the season
It was indeed. Plus when ESPN had the rights they showed a couple of their games live, as they'd signed up a load of 'legends' to play in the cup for them.
I'll reword that for you; "Manish Bhasin may also be used; he seems to be flavour of the month with the BBC"
Or is he? If he was, he sure as hell wouldn't still be doing the Football League Show on the Saturday night graveyard shift; more like MOTD2 or Final Score.
Speaking of Final Score, Jason Mohammad, the regular presenter of that programme, hosted MOTD2 Extra yesterday lunchtime, as Mark Chapman was at the US Masters golf. Ironically, Chapman could well be doing FS for the next couple of weeks as "J-Mo" will be at the Snooker World Championship in Sheffield.
No Virgin media in Hull.
No BT, no SKY broadband - no nothing.
Just Kingston Communications.
http://www.simplifydigital.co.uk/virgin-media/?PO=hu9 5px
Hull has one sole broadband supplier, although OFCOM say it is not a monopoly - despite the fact that anyone wanting to enter the Hull market has to pay full market price - whereas BT have to offer their network to competitors at wholesale prices.
Weird that there are posters all over Hull for SKY broadband - who do not supply in the area.
It isn't a monopoly because anybody else can come into Hull, nobody is stopping them. They are stopping themselves due to the cost to lay down their own lines.
When are provisional schedules out?