Late to the party I'm afraid - away on hols, but I did watch it originally the night we got back. I wanted to give it chance to "seep in" and re-watch before commenting.
I'm afraid I could only give this an average rating.
A bit too leisurely.
And it felt like there was a bit missing from the beginning. I'm hoping, when I see the (curls lips in distaste) "prequel" (an abuse of the language), that gap will be filled - now I know it exists.
The main problem for me is that the Clara - Doctor relationship jumps forwards and lurches backwards. I get that the heart of the story is really how Clara comes to terms with and learns to trust the "new" Doctor. For me it wasn't portrayed credibly. The main problem being that there is the big scene in the middle of the story with her facing down the half faced robot and ends with her "trusting" that the Doctor has her back. Which, of course, he has. And then later she's back to not really trusting him and not knowing who he is.
They're keeping that doubt going and yet she's already back in the TARDIS having new adventures. All the while still not knowing whether he's a good person or not.
Hmmm. Not sure. Not sure at all. For me that's not a realistic portrayal of Clara's dilemma.
I've been thinking about this GDK. Does anyone else think there was some significance that the Doctor mysteriously left Glasgow after he just got Clara to believe he was "the same Doctor" to suddenly find himself in time and space and to pick up a distress signal and save Journey Blue?
I'm just wondering if there was a reason he disappeared, what set him off.
Late to the party I'm afraid - away on hols, but I did watch it originally the night we got back. I wanted to give it chance to "seep in" and re-watch before commenting.
I'm afraid I could only give this an average rating.
A bit too leisurely.
And it felt like there was a bit missing from the beginning. I'm hoping, when I see the (curls lips in distaste) "prequel" (an abuse of the language), that gap will be filled - now I know it exists.
The main problem for me is that the Clara - Doctor relationship jumps forwards and lurches backwards. I get that the heart of the story is really how Clara comes to terms with and learns to trust the "new" Doctor. For me it wasn't portrayed credibly. The main problem being that there is the big scene in the middle of the story with her facing down the half faced robot and ends with her "trusting" that the Doctor has her back. Which, of course, he has. And then later she's back to not really trusting him and not knowing who he is.
They're keeping that doubt going and yet she's already back in the TARDIS having new adventures. All the while still not knowing whether he's a good person or not.
Hmmm. Not sure. Not sure at all. For me that's not a realistic portrayal of Clara's dilemma.
Late to the party I'm afraid - away on hols, but I did watch it originally the night we got back. I wanted to give it chance to "seep in" and re-watch before commenting.
I'm afraid I could only give this an average rating.
A bit too leisurely.
And it felt like there was a bit missing from the beginning. I'm hoping, when I see the (curls lips in distaste) "prequel" (an abuse of the language), that gap will be filled - now I know it exists.
The main problem for me is that the Clara - Doctor relationship jumps forwards and lurches backwards. I get that the heart of the story is really how Clara comes to terms with and learns to trust the "new" Doctor. For me it wasn't portrayed credibly. The main problem being that there is the big scene in the middle of the story with her facing down the half faced robot and ends with her "trusting" that the Doctor has her back. Which, of course, he has. And then later she's back to not really trusting him and not knowing who he is.
They're keeping that doubt going and yet she's already back in the TARDIS having new adventures. All the while still not knowing whether he's a good person or not.
Hmmm. Not sure. Not sure at all. For me that's not a realistic portrayal of Clara's dilemma.
This was an enormous issue for me too. I thought very highly of the episode but they got the Clara/Doctor trajectory totally wrong.
I can only think that the decision to include Smith's cameo was done at the last minute and hastily written into the script. Just prior to that we have Clara and the Doctor excitedly discussing who the woman in the shop was, who left the advert in the paper, etc. It seemed as if, as you say, Clara had decided to trust him after her 'test' in the robots' den.
And then the Doctor says 'how do you feel about it?' and Clara says 'Nah, not interested as I don't know who you are', followed by Smith's cameo.
It was a dreadful error on Moffat's part. It undermined Capaldi's Doctor and made absolute nonsense of almost everything that came before it. If Smith's cameo had always been part of the storyline then the entire episode should've unfolded very differently.
It struck me as little more than a crisis of confidence on the part of the producers and the BBC that Capaldi/Moffat hadn't done enough in that opening episode to keep people watching so they shoehorned in Matt Smith having to plead with the viewers to give him a chance.
Phew! Thanks for that. For a while there I thought I was the only one, what with all the praise being heaped upon it around here.
Of course there is still much to admire about the episode, but I feel this aspect is so key, so central to the story that I am shocked that Clara's trajectory is so badly wrong. Schoolboy error. Worse than the sonic wavey wavey B plot "resolution" in TPo3. At least they got the character bits in TPo3 right.
According to Digital Spy the "kiss" has been edited out of Asian countries copies of the episode. The BBC claim this does not detract from the storyline, which makes one wonder, if it does not distract from the storyline then wasn't its inclusion gratuitous?
I agree about the cameo. It felt wrong that the ghost of Smith was still hovering around when the show is bigger than one individual actor.
I don't have a problem with the cameo. For me it was a nice timey-wimey touch and an interesting reversal/reflection of Peter Capaldi's cameo in TDotD.
This was an enormous issue for me too. I thought very highly of the episode but they got the Clara/Doctor trajectory totally wrong.
I see what you're saying but I think, with Clara, she was really just in denial. She was upset at losing "her" Doctor. The face and personality that she'd come to love but, deep down, she knew intellectually that he was the same person.
Like when she said that she felt the Doctor would up and leave her at the end only to have Madame Vastra point out that she'd dressed in her modern clothes and was obviously, subconsciously at least, expecting to leave with him.
She said one thing, almost out of loyalty to the 11th, but, inside, she knew better.
I don't have a problem with the cameo. For me it was a nice timey-wimey touch and an interesting reversal/reflection of Peter Capaldi's cameo in TDotD.
I know that the kids and the fans of Smith want it but it makes the assumption that throughout the episode we're really wishing Smith was there and that we have a major problem with the Doctor being old and Scottish so we need Smith to tell us it's all right. I know that Smith was a success and popular in the role but it felt self-indulgent to dwell on former glory.
The Bond films manage fine enough when they switch Bonds over. They give us the new actor and then throw him into the action and we just accept him as Bond.
I see what you're saying but I think, with Clara, she was really just in denial. She was upset at losing "her" Doctor. The face and personality that she'd come to love but, deep down, she knew intellectually that he was the same person.
Like when she said that she felt the Doctor would up and leave her at the end only to have Madame Vastra point out that she'd dressed in her modern clothes and was obviously, subconsciously at least, expecting to leave with him.
She said one thing, almost out of loyalty to the 11th, but, inside, she knew better.
Yes, we had that throughout the first half and middle of the episode. Then it started to develop into her trusting the Doctor and accepting him. It made her sudden refusal at the end completely ridiculous.
I know that the kids and the fans of Smith want it but it makes the assumption that throughout the episode we're really wishing Smith was there and that we have a major problem with the Doctor being old and Scottish so we need Smith to tell us it's all right. I know that Smith was a success and popular in the role but it felt self-indulgent to dwell on former glory.
The Bond films manage fine enough when they switch Bonds over. They give us the new actor and then throw him into the action and we just accept him as Bond.
Yes, it was so transparent, having Smith wailing in disbelief because his latest incarnation has grey hair and is 'old' and then insisting it was the same person.
I know that the kids and the fans of Smith want it but it makes the assumption that throughout the episode we're really wishing Smith was there and that we have a major problem with the Doctor being old and Scottish so we need Smith to tell us it's all right. I know that Smith was a success and popular in the role but it felt self-indulgent to dwell on former glory.
It's pretty well established that a lot of viewers don't like the new Doctor when he takes over. Every Doctor, in the past, has had people dislike them at first and then grow to love them. I don't see any problem with acknowledging that fact by mirroring the viewers' feelings through the companion/Doctor dynamic.
I didn't have an issue with the cameo at all.
The Bond films manage fine enough when they switch Bonds over. They give us the new actor and then throw him into the action and we just accept him as Bond.
That's because, in the Bond universe, it's the same person and there is no in-Universe concept of him changing personality or appearance. The different actor is something to be brushed over while the viewers suspend their disbelief that he now looks different, not something that could reasonably be expected to be addressed in the plot.
When the Doctor changes it's part of the show and, realistically, the change would have an effect on those who knew him before. Nobody would buy the idea that everyone would carry on as if nothing had happened.
Yes, we had that throughout the first half and middle of the episode. Then it started to develop into her trusting the Doctor and accepting him. It made her sudden refusal at the end completely ridiculous.
Not necessarily. Trusting and accepting that he's the Doctor and will have her back isn't the same as wanting to travel with him. She had a semi-romantic, flirty relationship with him and now he looks like her father! It's bound to give a girl pause
Yes, it was so transparent, having Smith wailing in disbelief because his latest incarnation has grey hair and is 'old' and then insisting it was the same person.
I felt it was unfair to Capaldi. I remember when Matt Smith started, people were saying he was too young, not very attractive, etc. but you didn't have Tennant saying "Oh, I know he's young and not as hot as me but bear with".
I thought the whole point of it is that you just accept that he is the Doctor, whether he is younger, older, fatter, thinner, etc.
Not necessarily. Trusting and accepting that he's the Doctor and will have her back isn't the same as wanting to travel with him. She had a semi-romantic, flirty relationship with him and now he looks like her father! It's bound to give a girl pause
But Clara understands that the Doctor has been many people. Anyway, doesn't the flirty thing undermine the fact that he's an alien and it's a bit weird to feel attracted to him anyway? Wasn't the flirty thing more of a game rather than her desire to have sex with him? (that's one thing we'll never see on the show!) People can still have teasy semi-flirtatious dynamics without actually trying to seduce the person.
I think the cameo would have been a lot better if, instead of wailing and complaining, 11 had said something like: "Am I old? Please tell me I got old. It's fun being old, you get to be rude to people."
I think the cameo would have been a lot better if, instead of wailing and complaining, 11 had said something like: "Am I old? Please tell me I got old. It's fun being old, you get to be rude to people."
Even though it's a bit cheesy, I would have preferred something more positive rather than highlighting the whole age thing. It was explained quite nicely with Vastra's veil thing and the 'I'm not your boyfriend' line. Adults didn't really need the repetition; it was really for the children. Although I think the writers could have given them more credit.
But Clara understands that the Doctor has been many people. Anyway, doesn't the flirty thing undermine the fact that he's an alien and it's a bit weird to feel attracted to him anyway? Wasn't the flirty thing more of a game rather than her desire to have sex with him? (that's one thing we'll never see on the show!) People can still have teasy semi-flirtatious dynamics without actually trying to seduce the person.
True but it's still a different dynamic. It's fun travelling around the Universe with a guy you fancy and with whom you enjoy a certain type of banter. It's not unreasonable to be reticent about doing the same thing with someone who is a lot more serious and looks like an old man. Particularly when it's such a life-threatening occupation!
I think it's fair that they need to give her a motivation to want to keep travelling with him because the motivation will have now changed. It seems to me that the cameo gave her that motivation. It's not so much about the thrill of his company now, it's more that he's a lonely guy and he needs her and, since he still is the same person who changed her life, she owes it to him to maintain the relationship and not just abandon him just because she doesn't get the same out of the relationship as she used to.
I know that the kids and the fans of Smith want it but it makes the assumption that throughout the episode we're really wishing Smith was there and that we have a major problem with the Doctor being old and Scottish so we need Smith to tell us it's all right. I know that Smith was a success and popular in the role but it felt self-indulgent to dwell on former glory.
The Bond films manage fine enough when they switch Bonds over. They give us the new actor and then throw him into the action and we just accept him as Bond.
Probably a lot of fans were [wishing Matt Smith was still there]. I don't see that as a necessarily a bad thing. It wouldn't be unusual or unexpected during the first few episodes. It takes that long for most to grow accustomed to the new face.
The thing about Bond is, unlike DW, there's no "in-story" explanation for the change. And no references to previous "incarnations", apart from Lazenby's "This never happened to the other guy" remark.
Even though it's a bit cheesy, I would have preferred something more positive rather than highlighting the whole age thing. It was explained quite nicely with Vastra's veil thing and the 'I'm not your boyfriend' line. Adults didn't really need the repetition; it was really for the children. Although I think the writers could have given them more credit.
You would rather the age question was ignored? Fact is, it does make a difference. A difference with which many in the audience would be struggling. That makes it perfectly reasonable, even a requirement, that the story addresses it some way.
What would be your "something more positive"? Imagine you're SM. What specifically would you put in its place?
You would rather the age question was ignored? Fact is, it does make a difference. A difference with which many in the audience would be struggling. That makes it perfectly reasonable, even a requirement, that the story addresses it some way.
But the thing is, it wasn't ignored. It was mentioned repeatedly throughout the episode and explained at least twice (Vastra and the veil; Capaldi and 'I'm not your boyfriend'). I appreciate that the show grew in popularity when you had young 'attractive' Doctors and so some viewers might only associate it with that but it's pandering to their shallowness to constantly mention it.
Fifties is obviously older than late twenties but you still have people in their fifties playing romantic leads. If he was the same age he is but looked like George Clooney, would they still have lines about being old and unattractive to the extent that they did? There were no questions about whether he'd be fit enough to be an action figure, which I would have thought was a more valid issue for the audience.
What would be your "something more positive"? Imagine you're SM. What specifically would you put in its place?
Well if I was him, I wouldn't have had it- and I don't discount the possibility that he was told to put it in.
But if it was in, instead of making it about Eleven (am I old? Oh don't worry, it's still me? and the general tone of I and me), I would make it more of Eleven being interested and excited by how he looks now. Of course that runs the risk of having Twelve shoved down our throats but the main point is that it should quickly exorcise the ghost of Smith and move the focus definitively onto Capaldi. I watched the last series on-and-off but I don't think it was implied that Clara and the Doctor was a love story in the way that Rose and the Doctor was sold as but it felt as if that's what they were implying.
Maybe it was necessary for the fans and young viewers but I felt from a writing and dramatic point that it took away from the fact that Capaldi is the Doctor now, not Smith.
Comments
I'm afraid I could only give this an average rating.
A bit too leisurely.
And it felt like there was a bit missing from the beginning. I'm hoping, when I see the (curls lips in distaste) "prequel" (an abuse of the language), that gap will be filled - now I know it exists.
The main problem for me is that the Clara - Doctor relationship jumps forwards and lurches backwards. I get that the heart of the story is really how Clara comes to terms with and learns to trust the "new" Doctor. For me it wasn't portrayed credibly. The main problem being that there is the big scene in the middle of the story with her facing down the half faced robot and ends with her "trusting" that the Doctor has her back. Which, of course, he has. And then later she's back to not really trusting him and not knowing who he is.
They're keeping that doubt going and yet she's already back in the TARDIS having new adventures. All the while still not knowing whether he's a good person or not.
Hmmm. Not sure. Not sure at all. For me that's not a realistic portrayal of Clara's dilemma.
I'm just wondering if there was a reason he disappeared, what set him off.
I think you hit the nail on the head there!
This was an enormous issue for me too. I thought very highly of the episode but they got the Clara/Doctor trajectory totally wrong.
I can only think that the decision to include Smith's cameo was done at the last minute and hastily written into the script. Just prior to that we have Clara and the Doctor excitedly discussing who the woman in the shop was, who left the advert in the paper, etc. It seemed as if, as you say, Clara had decided to trust him after her 'test' in the robots' den.
And then the Doctor says 'how do you feel about it?' and Clara says 'Nah, not interested as I don't know who you are', followed by Smith's cameo.
It was a dreadful error on Moffat's part. It undermined Capaldi's Doctor and made absolute nonsense of almost everything that came before it. If Smith's cameo had always been part of the storyline then the entire episode should've unfolded very differently.
It struck me as little more than a crisis of confidence on the part of the producers and the BBC that Capaldi/Moffat hadn't done enough in that opening episode to keep people watching so they shoehorned in Matt Smith having to plead with the viewers to give him a chance.
Bizarre.
Of course there is still much to admire about the episode, but I feel this aspect is so key, so central to the story that I am shocked that Clara's trajectory is so badly wrong. Schoolboy error. Worse than the sonic wavey wavey B plot "resolution" in TPo3. At least they got the character bits in TPo3 right.
Matt filmed his scene the same time he was filming Time of the Doctor so hardly a last minute decision.
I don't have a problem with the cameo. For me it was a nice timey-wimey touch and an interesting reversal/reflection of Peter Capaldi's cameo in TDotD.
I see what you're saying but I think, with Clara, she was really just in denial. She was upset at losing "her" Doctor. The face and personality that she'd come to love but, deep down, she knew intellectually that he was the same person.
Like when she said that she felt the Doctor would up and leave her at the end only to have Madame Vastra point out that she'd dressed in her modern clothes and was obviously, subconsciously at least, expecting to leave with him.
She said one thing, almost out of loyalty to the 11th, but, inside, she knew better.
I know that the kids and the fans of Smith want it but it makes the assumption that throughout the episode we're really wishing Smith was there and that we have a major problem with the Doctor being old and Scottish so we need Smith to tell us it's all right. I know that Smith was a success and popular in the role but it felt self-indulgent to dwell on former glory.
The Bond films manage fine enough when they switch Bonds over. They give us the new actor and then throw him into the action and we just accept him as Bond.
Yes, we had that throughout the first half and middle of the episode. Then it started to develop into her trusting the Doctor and accepting him. It made her sudden refusal at the end completely ridiculous.
Yes, it was so transparent, having Smith wailing in disbelief because his latest incarnation has grey hair and is 'old' and then insisting it was the same person.
It's pretty well established that a lot of viewers don't like the new Doctor when he takes over. Every Doctor, in the past, has had people dislike them at first and then grow to love them. I don't see any problem with acknowledging that fact by mirroring the viewers' feelings through the companion/Doctor dynamic.
I didn't have an issue with the cameo at all.
That's because, in the Bond universe, it's the same person and there is no in-Universe concept of him changing personality or appearance. The different actor is something to be brushed over while the viewers suspend their disbelief that he now looks different, not something that could reasonably be expected to be addressed in the plot.
When the Doctor changes it's part of the show and, realistically, the change would have an effect on those who knew him before. Nobody would buy the idea that everyone would carry on as if nothing had happened.
Not necessarily. Trusting and accepting that he's the Doctor and will have her back isn't the same as wanting to travel with him. She had a semi-romantic, flirty relationship with him and now he looks like her father! It's bound to give a girl pause
I felt it was unfair to Capaldi. I remember when Matt Smith started, people were saying he was too young, not very attractive, etc. but you didn't have Tennant saying "Oh, I know he's young and not as hot as me but bear with".
I thought the whole point of it is that you just accept that he is the Doctor, whether he is younger, older, fatter, thinner, etc.
But Clara understands that the Doctor has been many people. Anyway, doesn't the flirty thing undermine the fact that he's an alien and it's a bit weird to feel attracted to him anyway? Wasn't the flirty thing more of a game rather than her desire to have sex with him? (that's one thing we'll never see on the show!) People can still have teasy semi-flirtatious dynamics without actually trying to seduce the person.
Even though it's a bit cheesy, I would have preferred something more positive rather than highlighting the whole age thing. It was explained quite nicely with Vastra's veil thing and the 'I'm not your boyfriend' line. Adults didn't really need the repetition; it was really for the children. Although I think the writers could have given them more credit.
True but it's still a different dynamic. It's fun travelling around the Universe with a guy you fancy and with whom you enjoy a certain type of banter. It's not unreasonable to be reticent about doing the same thing with someone who is a lot more serious and looks like an old man. Particularly when it's such a life-threatening occupation!
I think it's fair that they need to give her a motivation to want to keep travelling with him because the motivation will have now changed. It seems to me that the cameo gave her that motivation. It's not so much about the thrill of his company now, it's more that he's a lonely guy and he needs her and, since he still is the same person who changed her life, she owes it to him to maintain the relationship and not just abandon him just because she doesn't get the same out of the relationship as she used to.
Probably a lot of fans were [wishing Matt Smith was still there].
The thing about Bond is, unlike DW, there's no "in-story" explanation for the change. And no references to previous "incarnations", apart from Lazenby's "This never happened to the other guy" remark.
You would rather the age question was ignored? Fact is, it does make a difference. A difference with which many in the audience would be struggling. That makes it perfectly reasonable, even a requirement, that the story addresses it some way.
What would be your "something more positive"? Imagine you're SM. What specifically would you put in its place?
But the thing is, it wasn't ignored. It was mentioned repeatedly throughout the episode and explained at least twice (Vastra and the veil; Capaldi and 'I'm not your boyfriend'). I appreciate that the show grew in popularity when you had young 'attractive' Doctors and so some viewers might only associate it with that but it's pandering to their shallowness to constantly mention it.
Fifties is obviously older than late twenties but you still have people in their fifties playing romantic leads. If he was the same age he is but looked like George Clooney, would they still have lines about being old and unattractive to the extent that they did? There were no questions about whether he'd be fit enough to be an action figure, which I would have thought was a more valid issue for the audience.
Well if I was him, I wouldn't have had it- and I don't discount the possibility that he was told to put it in.
But if it was in, instead of making it about Eleven (am I old? Oh don't worry, it's still me? and the general tone of I and me), I would make it more of Eleven being interested and excited by how he looks now. Of course that runs the risk of having Twelve shoved down our throats but the main point is that it should quickly exorcise the ghost of Smith and move the focus definitively onto Capaldi. I watched the last series on-and-off but I don't think it was implied that Clara and the Doctor was a love story in the way that Rose and the Doctor was sold as but it felt as if that's what they were implying.
Maybe it was necessary for the fans and young viewers but I felt from a writing and dramatic point that it took away from the fact that Capaldi is the Doctor now, not Smith.