I think the issue would be if we were invaded by ISIS or any other forces who would they fight for - so the question is does their loyalty lie with the country they were born in or reside in or their religion
Interesting. So what do you think of Christian pacifists then?
ISIS base is in syria so they wouldnt be too happy if we 'invaded' syria but i think its a good idea. But arabs should sort the situation out themselves. They should rise up from all sides to defeat them.
ISIS base is in syria so they wouldnt be too happy if we 'invaded' syria but i think its a good idea. But arabs should sort the situation out themselves. They should rise up from all sides to defeat them.
The north and western Sunni Iraqi tribes were uniting with ISIS in a marriage of convenience against the former Iraq PM Nouri al-Maliki's injustice towards Sunnis. Now that al-Maliki is gone hopefully these tribes can eventually turn on ISIS terrorists and help get rid of them.
The concept of Britishness is purely subjective - everybody you ask would have a different view as to what it means.
What you are doing is projecting your own conception of Britishness - your own feeling - as to being the correct, overriding one - which is a very dangerous view to take, surely?
No - I'm sure eveyone doesn't have a different concept of Britishness there may be some difference but most people will have the same general view of what Britishness is . If you allow everyone to have an individual subjective and "valid" concept of what it means to be British then that makes being British meaningless as there will be literally millions of defintions.....but then from your posts I suspect you'd be happy with this result as it allows imported foreign customs , cultures and religions to be classed as British . FGM is an imported custom and as the perpetrators have a British passports so FGM in your world this is now a British custom .
I advise all members to put Great God Pan on their ignore lists like I have. He will turn the thread into his pet fetish of what it is to be British no matter what the topic.
I advise all members to put Great God Pan on their ignore lists like I have. He will turn the thread into his pet fetish of what it is to be British no matter what the topic.
LOL ....yes he is happy to ask posters ad nauseum to define Britishness but is very very shy about defining it himself
Interesting. So what do you think of Christian pacifists then?
Pacifists can still support the war effort as many of them did during WW2 - I don't think being a Christian pacifist would stop a member of ISIS from killing you
I advise all members to put Great God Pan on their ignore lists like I have. He will turn the thread into his pet fetish of what it is to be British no matter what the topic.
Yay, way to go, "I don't want to defend my position I just want you to accept it without question, even though I can't tell you what I mean by "being British" because I don't bloody know what I mean, I just know that it means agree with me or I will ignore you"
is that a typically "British" attitude?.... and to think someone accused me of "burring my head in the sand" a while back,
I mean, I just can not get my head around the type of person who would use the 'ignore list' in the first place, seems like a very "un British" response to me,
whilst most of us agree that radicals in schools and mosques should be rooted out quickly (there should be no religious schools of any religion at all ).. we really don't need any lectures from the likes of the EDL who appear to be the other side of the terrorist coin.
Actually yes you do need to be lectured and EDL are not a terrorist group, who have we killed, what a daft thing to say.
We tell the truth, we won't be silenced by the lefties who continually defend the Islamists by shouting racist etc etc and now we will all reap the whirlwind of lefty cowardice.
Even now the politicians and lefties are running away from the problems with their so called multi-culty utopia.
They brought these people into our land and it's we the people who will pay the price for that.
LOL ....yes he is happy to ask posters ad nauseum to define Britishness but is very very shy about defining it himself
Dear God, that's probably because he and I aren't the one's trying to tell people what or who, is or isn't "British"
Personally I have outlined time and time again my own personal values and principles, and they, I believe fall well within what what is supposed to be typically "British"
Like tolerance, respect, freedom of worship, freedom of speech, freedom to hold whatever opinion you wish, provided of course you don't act on that opinion if that action is illegal, the right of every single man woman and child in this country regardless of race, nationality, politics, sexuality, etc etc, to be deemed as innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, and the right to a free and fair trial, no matter WHAT they are accused of, and no matter how abhorrent we might find their views or the crime they are accused of,
we can't pick and choose these things they are and should be universal and apply to EVERYONE,
Some in this thread who claim to know who does or doesn't have the right to be called "BRITISH" (even though they constantly refuse to give their own interpretation of what exactly they mean by being "British") then go on to openly condone execution of prisoners (a bullet in the back of the head) arrest without trial, torture of prisoners, guilt by association, thinking that merely being suspicious or of having an 'opinion' about billions of people is a good enough reason to condemn them all for the actions of a minority,
ALL of those ideas, and opinions are far better suited to the likes of the ISIS extremists way of thinking than anything that I would think of as being "British"
I suggest that anyone who holds such views is as far from being "British" as the ISIS forces and the Taliban are, they certainly have far more in common with those primitive savages than they do with anything that I would regard as "British"
"I have said very often that one of the first things you learn is that my enemy's enemy is not my friend.
We may very well find that we are aligned against a common enemy but it would poison what we're trying to achieve in separating moderate Sunni opinion from the poisonous ideology of Isil if we were to align ourselves with Assad."
Actually yes you do need to be lectured and EDL are not a terrorist group, who have we killed, what a daft thing to say.
We tell the truth, we won't be silenced by the lefties who continually defend the Islamists by shouting racist etc etc and now we will all reap the whirlwind of lefty cowardice.
Even now the politicians and lefties are running away from the problems with their so called multi-culty utopia.
They brought these people into our land and it's we the people who will pay the price for that.
Not a 'lefty' but the EDL are nothing but a bunch of thugs and I do not want lectures from them.
Dear God, that's probably because he and I aren't the one's trying to tell people what or who, is or isn't "British"
Personally I have outlined time and time again my own personal values and principles, and they, I believe fall well within what what is supposed to be typically "British"
Like tolerance, respect, freedom of worship, freedom of speech, freedom to hold whatever opinion you wish, provided of course you don't act on that opinion if that action is illegal, the right of every single man woman and child in this country regardless of race, nationality, politics, sexuality, etc etc, to be deemed as innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, and the right to a free and fair trial, no matter WHAT they are accused of, and no matter how abhorrent we might find their views or the crime they are accused of,
we can't pick and choose these things they are and should be universal and apply to EVERYONE,
Some in this thread who claim to know who does or doesn't have the right to be called "BRITISH" (even though they constantly refuse to give their own interpretation of what exactly they mean by being "British") then go on to openly condone execution of prisoners (a bullet in the back of the head) arrest without trial, torture of prisoners, guilt by association, thinking that merely being suspicious or of having an 'opinion' about billions of people is a good enough reason to condemn them all for the actions of a minority,
ALL of those ideas, and opinions are far better suited to the likes of the ISIS extremists way of thinking than anything that I would think of as being "British"
I suggest that anyone who holds such views is as far from being "British" as the ISIS forces and the Taliban are, they certainly have far more in common with those primitive savages than they do with anything that I would regard as "British"
These are British born ISIS insurgents beheading people and fighting in Iraq and Syria you are talking about. We know who a lot of them are. I don't think they will be planning on coming back for their due process in the UK which makes your Lady Justice impersonation look rather pointless.
If any did make it to the UK they of course would not be executed but arrested and put on trial. If caught abroad it would depend who caught them what their fate would be. I wouldn't rule out them being tortured at a black site either.
Actually yes you do need to be lectured and EDL are not a terrorist group, who have we killed, what a daft thing to say.
We tell the truth, we won't be silenced by the lefties who continually defend the Islamists by shouting racist etc etc and now we will all reap the whirlwind of lefty cowardice.
Even now the politicians and lefties are running away from the problems with their so called multi-culty utopia.
They brought these people into our land and it's we the people who will pay the price for that.
As it goes, I think I'm fine on the lecture from the EDL. Thanks all the same.
The concept of Britishness is purely subjective - everybody you ask would have a different view as to what it means.
What you are doing is projecting your own conception of Britishness - your own feeling - as to being the correct, overriding one - which is a very dangerous view to take, surely?
I fail to see how my view that a feeling of empathy with one's country and making an effort to belong to it can be construed as "very dangerous".
The concept is wide enough to allow for all sorts of reasoning behind that basic belief. If the reasoning is benign, which invariably it would be, it makes your opinion look ridiculous.
These from ISIS probably the same who were fighting in Afghanistan,they have moved on, so waste of time us fighting them in afghanistan.
I was reading that they're a mix of virtually everyone who's been involved in conflicts of some kind over the last 20 years, so you've got former Afghan Taliban, Chechen & Dagestani rebels (which might explain the brutality), extremists who've been involved in Northern African conflicts etc etc. and the radicalised recruits from all over.
Not sure what the solution is. Perhaps a sustained campaign of carpet bombing. With thermobaric bombs.
I have said that brutal autocracy is preferable to brutal rebellion and that we may in time need to improve relations with Assad. But on listening to Hammond today, I think he is right and that crazy Rifkind, as always, is wrong.
Frankly, we have to decide what to do against ISIS in Iraq and to be clear about our position on our citizens' role in Iraq and Syria. Assad can do what he likes to manage it in Syria. He's got pots of money and there are more weapons in that region than trees. I don't see why we should get involved on that side currently. It's up to him.
No - I'm sure eveyone doesn't have a different concept of Britishness there may be some difference but most people will have the same general view of what Britishness is . If you allow everyone to have an individual subjective and "valid" concept of what it means to be British then that makes being British meaningless as there will be literally millions of defintions.....but then from your posts I suspect you'd be happy with this result as it allows imported foreign customs , cultures and religions to be classed as British . FGM is an imported custom and as the perpetrators have a British passports so FGM in your world this is now a British custom .
Allow? If somebody is not allowing people to have their own view of 'Britishness' then there must be some laid-down statement as to what it is.
I have said that brutal autocracy is preferable to brutal rebellion and that we may in time need to improve relations with Assad. But on listening to Hammond today, I think he is right and that crazy Rifkind, as always, is wrong.
I'm inclined to agree. In Assads defence though, he was calling the opposition terrorists back when we were calling them rebels and talking about arming them.
It is refreshing to hear a foreign secretary get it right with the middle east. It's not a case of having two sides and picking one and all that comes with it. But understanding that the otherside can be an asset without having to switch support.
I'm inclined to agree. In Assads defence though, he was calling the opposition terrorists back when we were calling them rebels and talking about arming them.
He said all along that ISIS were terrorists, but the West kept calling them "moderate rebels" and "civilians" because they were fighting a government we didn't like. The moment they aren't serving our interests they once again become brutal civilian killing terrorists.
Comments
Interesting. So what do you think of Christian pacifists then?
Yeah we get it, time to bang a different drum.
Exactly. Like the subject of this thread.
The north and western Sunni Iraqi tribes were uniting with ISIS in a marriage of convenience against the former Iraq PM Nouri al-Maliki's injustice towards Sunnis. Now that al-Maliki is gone hopefully these tribes can eventually turn on ISIS terrorists and help get rid of them.
No - I'm sure eveyone doesn't have a different concept of Britishness there may be some difference but most people will have the same general view of what Britishness is . If you allow everyone to have an individual subjective and "valid" concept of what it means to be British then that makes being British meaningless as there will be literally millions of defintions.....but then from your posts I suspect you'd be happy with this result as it allows imported foreign customs , cultures and religions to be classed as British . FGM is an imported custom and as the perpetrators have a British passports so FGM in your world this is now a British custom .
LOL ....yes he is happy to ask posters ad nauseum to define Britishness but is very very shy about defining it himself
Pacifists can still support the war effort as many of them did during WW2 - I don't think being a Christian pacifist would stop a member of ISIS from killing you
Yay, way to go, "I don't want to defend my position I just want you to accept it without question, even though I can't tell you what I mean by "being British" because I don't bloody know what I mean, I just know that it means agree with me or I will ignore you"
is that a typically "British" attitude?.... and to think someone accused me of "burring my head in the sand" a while back,
I mean, I just can not get my head around the type of person who would use the 'ignore list' in the first place, seems like a very "un British" response to me,
Actually yes you do need to be lectured and EDL are not a terrorist group, who have we killed, what a daft thing to say.
We tell the truth, we won't be silenced by the lefties who continually defend the Islamists by shouting racist etc etc and now we will all reap the whirlwind of lefty cowardice.
Even now the politicians and lefties are running away from the problems with their so called multi-culty utopia.
They brought these people into our land and it's we the people who will pay the price for that.
As some people can claim another is not a real socialist, I'm sure I've heard that somewhere.
Dear God, that's probably because he and I aren't the one's trying to tell people what or who, is or isn't "British"
Personally I have outlined time and time again my own personal values and principles, and they, I believe fall well within what what is supposed to be typically "British"
Like tolerance, respect, freedom of worship, freedom of speech, freedom to hold whatever opinion you wish, provided of course you don't act on that opinion if that action is illegal, the right of every single man woman and child in this country regardless of race, nationality, politics, sexuality, etc etc, to be deemed as innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, and the right to a free and fair trial, no matter WHAT they are accused of, and no matter how abhorrent we might find their views or the crime they are accused of,
we can't pick and choose these things they are and should be universal and apply to EVERYONE,
Some in this thread who claim to know who does or doesn't have the right to be called "BRITISH" (even though they constantly refuse to give their own interpretation of what exactly they mean by being "British") then go on to openly condone execution of prisoners (a bullet in the back of the head) arrest without trial, torture of prisoners, guilt by association, thinking that merely being suspicious or of having an 'opinion' about billions of people is a good enough reason to condemn them all for the actions of a minority,
ALL of those ideas, and opinions are far better suited to the likes of the ISIS extremists way of thinking than anything that I would think of as being "British"
I suggest that anyone who holds such views is as far from being "British" as the ISIS forces and the Taliban are, they certainly have far more in common with those primitive savages than they do with anything that I would regard as "British"
Not a 'lefty' but the EDL are nothing but a bunch of thugs and I do not want lectures from them.
These are British born ISIS insurgents beheading people and fighting in Iraq and Syria you are talking about. We know who a lot of them are. I don't think they will be planning on coming back for their due process in the UK which makes your Lady Justice impersonation look rather pointless.
If any did make it to the UK they of course would not be executed but arrested and put on trial. If caught abroad it would depend who caught them what their fate would be. I wouldn't rule out them being tortured at a black site either.
As it goes, I think I'm fine on the lecture from the EDL. Thanks all the same.
I fail to see how my view that a feeling of empathy with one's country and making an effort to belong to it can be construed as "very dangerous".
The concept is wide enough to allow for all sorts of reasoning behind that basic belief. If the reasoning is benign, which invariably it would be, it makes your opinion look ridiculous.
I was reading that they're a mix of virtually everyone who's been involved in conflicts of some kind over the last 20 years, so you've got former Afghan Taliban, Chechen & Dagestani rebels (which might explain the brutality), extremists who've been involved in Northern African conflicts etc etc. and the radicalised recruits from all over.
Not sure what the solution is. Perhaps a sustained campaign of carpet bombing. With thermobaric bombs.
Frankly, we have to decide what to do against ISIS in Iraq and to be clear about our position on our citizens' role in Iraq and Syria. Assad can do what he likes to manage it in Syria. He's got pots of money and there are more weapons in that region than trees. I don't see why we should get involved on that side currently. It's up to him.
Allow? If somebody is not allowing people to have their own view of 'Britishness' then there must be some laid-down statement as to what it is.
What is it?
All this started because some posters on here said that you can be a British citizen but not be 'British'.
They are, of course, unable to state what that means apart from their own subjective view of what it constitutes.
I'm inclined to agree. In Assads defence though, he was calling the opposition terrorists back when we were calling them rebels and talking about arming them.
It is refreshing to hear a foreign secretary get it right with the middle east. It's not a case of having two sides and picking one and all that comes with it. But understanding that the otherside can be an asset without having to switch support.
He said all along that ISIS were terrorists, but the West kept calling them "moderate rebels" and "civilians" because they were fighting a government we didn't like. The moment they aren't serving our interests they once again become brutal civilian killing terrorists.