Logopolis/Castrovalva

gboygboy Posts: 4,989
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I've just watched the DVDs of Logopolis and Castrovalva again, and - despite Christopher H Bidmead raving about how brilliant the scripts are - there are plot holes, unexplained points in the narrative, and just plain lazy writing that suggest otherwise.

Some of which are listed below:
  • Why does the Master kill Aunt Vanessa, but spare Tegan?
  • How do the Doctor and Adric get out of the Tardis at the end of episode one? They seem to appear from round the back - does the Tardis have a back door...?
  • Why do the police arrest the Doctor? What's he supposed to have done - turned two people into wax dolls?
  • Tom Geogeson puts the Doctor in the back of the police car, and he simply opens the other door and runs off. Would a professional policeman not have anticipated just such a reaction?
  • When trying to land the Tardis in the Thames in order to flush the Master out - does the Doctor not worry that he and Adric will probably drown when a large quantity of water suddenly rushes into the Tardis?
  • How, when and why does the Master leave the Doctor's Tardis?
  • What is the point of the Watcher, beyond mere plot device?
  • Why does the Watcher bring Nyssa to Logopolis, and what's he supposed to have said to her - "Hey love, do you want to see that strange curly-haired bloke with the scarf and his annoying sidekick again? Oh, and a panto villain who's inhabiting your father's corpse?"
  • At the end of Logopolis, the guards are hot on the heels of the companions, yet nowhere to be seen during the regeneration scene (which lasts a good few minutes). Later, at the start of Castrovlava, they're back on their heels again.
  • Why does Tom waste valuable time putting the scarf back on when he's on the telescope gantry?
  • Why do none of the guards ask - how come the bloke in the scarf was a curly-haired geezer in his late forties (wearing boots) when he fell off the telescope, yet now he's a blond-haired dude in his early thirties (wearing shoes)?
  • No explanation is given for Nyssa suddenly changing out of her fairy skirt into a pair of velvet slacks (surely after she fell into the water would have been a sensible time to pop in a line - "I'm just nipping back to the Tardis to change out of this wet skirt...").
  • What was the point of Castrovalva - trap the Doctor forever in a place of no escape? Surely easier just to use the tissue compression thingy on him...?

And many, many more...

Having said all this - I think visually both stories look amazing, and I've always liked the fact Castrovalva is a direct continuation of Logopolis - with the action starting literally where the previous story finished.

Comments

  • ListentomeListentome Posts: 9,804
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    I'm no fan of Bidmead, he comes across as very smug and dismissive of any Who he wasn't involved in. I find his scripts lacked any sense of character, too bogged down in trying to be clever and there are plot holes, but probably no more than in any other Who.

    However, any continuity errors in wardrobe are not his doing.
  • gboygboy Posts: 4,989
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    Listentome wrote: »
    I'm no fan of Bidmead, he comes across as very smug and dismissive of any Who he wasn't involved in. I find his scripts lacked any sense of character, too bogged down in trying to be clever and there are plot holes, but probably no more than in any other Who.

    However, any continuity errors in wardrobe are not his doing.

    According to Fiona Cumming (director on Castrovalva) it was written in the script - 'the Doctor removes his shoes'.

    She blamed both wardrobe and the writer.
  • allen_whoallen_who Posts: 2,819
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    I found your post very amusing gboy, and of course you do seem to be correct on all counts. But I'd say it's really a case of letting those faults wash over you and enjoy the stories for what they are

    for the record I've often wondered about the tardis 'back door' scene (as you put it) plus the Policemans bizarre reaction to simply seeing a doll. None the less I love Tom's last story and wished it's been a six parter at the time
  • ListentomeListentome Posts: 9,804
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    gboy wrote: »
    According to Fiona Cumming (director on Castrovalva) it was written in the script - 'the Doctor removes his shoes'.

    She blamed both wardrobe and the writer.

    I recall that now. Still as director she could have used boots instead, I don't seem to remember it would have made any difference to the story.
  • daveyboy7472daveyboy7472 Posts: 16,326
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    Logopolis and Castrovalva are my fave stories ever. I just love this period of the Classic Series.

    Yes, the whole shoe thing is a bit of a continuity flop but bear in mind the two stories weren't recorded back to back, Castrovalva was made fourth in Series 19 so I guess people just forgot Tom Baker was wearing boots. Saying that, you thought someone may have picked up on it between Series.

    If you look back at the first regeneration, Troughton's costume came from nowhere, as if the change of appearance extended to his clothes as well, so it was nothing new.

    As for the other plot holes, they are nothing normal for this period. If you watch Earthshock or any Saward story you can see the plot holes a mile off and they are even worse than what Bidmead done here.

    As has been said, sometimes you just have to get on and watch the story and enjoy it. If you analyse every small detail of every Doctor Who story, you'd pick up loads of plot holes. Best ignore them and concentrate on the story you're watching. :)
  • meglosmurmursmeglosmurmurs Posts: 35,104
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    I just love that bit in Logopolis where The Doctor plans to flush out or even drown the Master within the Tardis.
    If I was Adric I'd be like "wtf Doctor?!?! :eek:"
    It just comes out of the blue and makes no sense whatsoever. Shame we never got to see it happen though. lol
    The Watcher manages to distract the Doctor and has a quick word with him, probably something like 'I haven't been stalking you all this time just so you can drown yourself, you pillock'.

    I think The Doctor may have been going a bit batty as he's towards the end of his regeneration. ;)
  • dgembadgembadgembadgemba Posts: 18,308
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    Listentome wrote: »
    I'm no fan of Bidmead, he comes across as very smug and dismissive of any Who he wasn't involved in. I find his scripts lacked any sense of character, too bogged down in trying to be clever and there are plot holes, but probably no more than in any other Who.

    However, any continuity errors in wardrobe are not his doing.

    this!

    The whole water in the TARDIS thing wound me right up
  • VericaciousVericacious Posts: 1,142
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    I just love that bit in Logopolis where The Doctor plans to flush out or even drown the Master within the Tardis.
    If I was Adric I'd be like "wtf Doctor?!?! :eek:"
    It just comes out of the blue and makes no sense whatsoever. Shame we never got to see it happen though. lol
    The Watcher manages to distract the Doctor and has a quick word with him, probably something like 'I haven't been stalking you all this time just so you can drown yourself, you pillock'.

    I think The Doctor may have been going a bit batty as he's towards the end of his regeneration. ;)

    I'm a great fan of Logopolis and the atmosphere created in it- I'm less of a fan of Castrovalva. When I was watching Logopolis back then and the Doctor suggested flushing out the TARDIS, I just felt fear; to me, this was the sort of mad thing that Tom Baker's Doctor might do (or might intend to do until the very last moment when he would usually then realise the consequences- of course, sometimes, scenes were played for the effects of madness, though this wasn't the case on this occasion).
  • gslam2gslam2 Posts: 1,503
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    I like both these stories so don't really mind the many plot holes but Bidmead does bring it on himself by being so dismissive of all other Who and so sure that his is the 'right' way of doing things.
  • dgembadgembadgembadgemba Posts: 18,308
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    gslam2 wrote: »
    I like both these stories so don't really mind the many plot holes but Bidmead does bring it on himself by being so dismissive of all other Who and so sure that his is the 'right' way of doing things.

    I love that mentality. :D

    Because i like it i can forget it doesn't make sense

    Very many FMs could do with thinking like that :)
  • gareth1408gareth1408 Posts: 408
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    I often wonder how these stories would have gone if Lis Sladen had agreed to come back as JNT wanted
  • MulettMulett Posts: 9,055
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    gareth1408 wrote: »
    I often wonder how these stories would have gone if Lis Sladen had agreed to come back as JNT wanted

    It would have been very interesting - I think JNT had asked her back for Davison's entire first season. So it would have been SJS trying to get back home each story, not Tegan!

    I found the first couple of episodes of Logopolis really frightening as a child. The way the Master bumped off Aunt Vanessa and that Policeman was really scarey - especially as we didn't get to see him, and (through his evil laugh) he clearly enjoyed murdering them.
  • ListentomeListentome Posts: 9,804
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    this!

    The whole water in the TARDIS thing wound me right up

    To be fair to Bidmead, he admits he got flack for the idea. But justifies it by the fact it didn't actually happen. The problem is he gave The Doctor the idea in the first place. :D Not the most stupid thing to ever have happened in Doctor Who, but when Bidmead seems proclaim how wonderfully scientific his scripts are and what (quote) "damn good stories" they were writing, it seems laughable.

    My biggest problem is Bidmead says in one breath they wanted to rein in Tom's improvisation, then in another breath says he was worried about Tom's acting in those stories. Well if you're going to gag someone's way of performing, what can you expect? Ok, there were problems working with Tom, he was clearly a pain in the bum, but that's the way he was.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 58
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    I hate Castrovalva, despite my forum name being it. I took that from ther M C Esher connection, btw, NOT the Dr Who connection. Anyways....it's just plain dumb and has some of the worse incidence of gobble-de-gook being the pivot of the plot ever. In the old series anyways, the new series if full of it. All that maths mumbo jumbo with Adric. Utter nonsense and utterly non-convincing. The most convincing line is "reversing the polirity of the neutron flow".
  • nebogipfelnebogipfel Posts: 8,375
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    I hate Castrovalva, despite my forum name being it. I took that from ther M C Esher connection, btw, NOT the Dr Who connection. Anyways....it's just plain dumb and has some of the worse incidence of gobble-de-gook being the pivot of the plot ever. In the old series anyways, the new series if full of it. All that maths mumbo jumbo with Adric. Utter nonsense and utterly non-convincing. The most convincing line is "reversing the polirity of the neutron flow".

    I like this sort of thing. meglosmurmurs isn't fond of Meglos either. It's not a rule of thumb though, The Brig (bless him) was very fond of The Brig (bless him).

    Interesting that Castrovalva isn't based on the ideas that Castrovalva was based on:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrovalva_%28M._C._Escher%29
  • dgembadgembadgembadgemba Posts: 18,308
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    nebogipfel wrote: »
    I like this sort of thing. meglosmurmurs isn't fond of Meglos either. It's not a rule of thumb though, The Brig (bless him) was very fond of The Brig (bless him).

    Interesting that Castrovalva isn't based on the ideas that Castrovalva was based on:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrovalva_%28M._C._Escher%29

    Does this mean that you are not a fan of HG Wells???
  • chuffnobblerchuffnobbler Posts: 10,769
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    I'm rather fond of these stories, and the opening Tardis scene of Logopolis is a great example of how underrated Matthew Waterhouse is as an actor (especially as Tom is at his grumpiest). I think the Tardis back door was mentioned in a Troughton story ... but I could be wrong ...

    Poor Auntie Vanessa! The dissolving Monitor is quite unsettling. Castrovalva is such an excellent idea, and the green forest scenes are fantastic.
  • gareth1408gareth1408 Posts: 408
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    One of the things I remember about the regeneration scene (and I even noticed this as a child) is how bored and unimpressed Tegan looks as the fifth Doctor sits up. :D

    Castrovalva really confused me as a child, I didn't get how Adric was in the TARDIS one minute then in the Web the next. I obviously now realise that Adric was taken by the Master when his TARDIS was hovering outside and all that lightening came out of it, but it was still pretty quick work to get Adric in that web and to create a version of himself.

    Also, at the climax of the story, when the Master says that he's laid in wait for 500 years, surely he hasn't had Adric with him for 500 years?
  • nebogipfelnebogipfel Posts: 8,375
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    Does this mean that you are not a fan of HG Wells???

    Respec' :). As I understand it there is indeed a Wells character that shares my name. I've asked my parents but they just frowned in puzzlement "HG Who, now?"

    Which is ironic, because when you read his stuff you can clearly see he's a Doctor Who fan. I categorise it as "superior fan fiction. without any rudey stuff."
  • Tom TitTom Tit Posts: 2,554
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    Listentome wrote: »
    My biggest problem is Bidmead says in one breath they wanted to rein in Tom's improvisation, then in another breath says he was worried about Tom's acting in those stories. Well if you're going to gag someone's way of performing, what can you expect?


    Bidmead, seemingly, has never been able to understand this; nor, unfortunately, have many fans.Tom's interpretation of the Doctor was assassinated in his final season; he wasn't allowed to play the role as he had established it. How on earth could his performance be consistent? If Bidmead (God forbid) took over the current show and told Matt Smith he had to lose the jokes and the silliness then his performance would suffer too.

    As for Bidmead, I struggle to understand which era of Doctor Who he actually likes. He seems to hark back to some mythical era prior to him when Doctor Who was like it was when he was script editor but no such time exists. He hated the show when he took over and he hates the show since his time. Can anyone find a quotation with him talking about some Doctor Who, apart from his own, that he actually likes? I am genuinely clueless about this.
  • Mad Man MoonMad Man Moon Posts: 1,087
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    Oddly enough, I quite liked the toned down Tom Baker in Season 18. I think he'd gone a little bit too far in seasons 16 and 17 down the comedy route. Which is why Bidmead and JNT reigned him in.

    Logopolis has a sad/doomed feel about it, which I always liked. It's still one of my favourite stories. Even Adric is ok in this.. ;)

    Castrovalva was a good story, although they sidelined Davison for a bit too long in it, recovering from the regeneration. Both season 18 and 19 had a pretty continuous feel to them, which worked pretty well.
  • DavetheScotDavetheScot Posts: 16,623
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    Oddly enough, I quite liked the toned down Tom Baker in Season 18. I think he'd gone a little bit too far in seasons 16 and 17 down the comedy route. Which is why Bidmead and JNT reigned him in.

    I agree. By series 17, Tom was inclined to mug and it didn't really enhance the show. On the better stories from Series 18 (State of Decay, for instance) he was more like he'd been during the golden age of Series 13 and 14.
  • dgembadgembadgembadgemba Posts: 18,308
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    nebogipfel wrote: »
    Respec' :). As I understand it there is indeed a Wells character that shares my name. I've asked my parents but they just frowned in puzzlement "HG Who, now?"

    Which is ironic, because when you read his stuff you can clearly see he's a Doctor Who fan. I categorise it as "superior fan fiction. without any rudey stuff."

    there are two but one was only published by his estate in 1995 so its possible he was named after you :eek:
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