Downloading illegally from Torrent sites..

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  • Admiral StarAdmiral Star Posts: 2,114
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    Remember the 'Knock-off Nigel' anti-piracy campaign?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TbqBPmInjQ


    Great stuff, and SO EFFECTIVE!

    Must also applaud the absolute genius who decided to put an unskippable 'You wouldn't steal a car.....' advert on ALL EIGHT DISCS of the Jeeves and Wooster boxset I bought. That'll encourage me not to pirate!

    That annoys me too. Got some DVDs with the unskippable advert. Why lecture people who have bought a DVD? Ridiculous. Makes me want to pirate a DVD if anything.:mad:
  • zx50zx50 Posts: 91,227
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    PPhilster wrote: »
    As I told another poster, if it makes you feel better disregard the word stealing, theft, or anything else your are trying to hold onto for justification, but the fact remains that you are still taking something without paying for it. The fact remains if everyone or most people did that, the shows, movies and music would no longer exist in the way that we know them and in the way that makes them so desirable in the first place. Those are two facts you can not talk yourself out of.

    Now you're talking about something else. You said:
    PPhilster wrote: »
    Funny, I thought I was looking at the definition of steal.

    I said:
    zx50 wrote: »
    It has 'theft' in it. Go back and take a look.

    That's it. You're now trying to change direction because you probably never read their post properly.
  • zx50zx50 Posts: 91,227
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    PPhilster wrote: »
    And if everybody is illegally making a "copy of an item" how does the "seller" make a profit? What then motivates the "seller" to continue crating and producing?

    If the world ended tomorrow...

    If an asteroid collided with Earth today...

    If horses all of a sudden had the ability to talk to humans...

    These are all ifs. The FACT that artists are still making a lot of money says that downloading music without paying for it isn't anywhere near as out of control as the industry would like us to believe.
  • zx50zx50 Posts: 91,227
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    Remember the 'Knock-off Nigel' anti-piracy campaign?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TbqBPmInjQ


    Great stuff, and SO EFFECTIVE!

    Must also applaud the absolute genius who decided to put an unskippable 'You wouldn't steal a car.....' advert on ALL EIGHT DISCS of the Jeeves and Wooster boxset I bought. That'll encourage me not to pirate!

    Some of the people in the industry are probably thick as pig's muck when it comes to good business sense. Want to discourage people from buying your products? Just place something in your product that irritates them highly. These people really are the biggest idiots going when it comes to business people. They are so damn sodding arrogant!
  • SchadenfreudSchadenfreud Posts: 1,382
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    That annoys me too. Got some DVDs with the unskippable advert. Why lecture people who have bought a DVD? Ridiculous. Makes me want to pirate a DVD if anything.:mad:

    That's the main reason I don't buy DVD's/Blu Rays anymore. I'd rather download the films and TV series.

    Having said that, I stil spend a fair amount on going to the Cinema so the studios do get some of my money.
  • UKMikeyUKMikey Posts: 28,728
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    I still buy Blu-Rays if they have interesting extras on. Added to which, the five FarScape Blu-Rays I recently bought from amazon would've cost me more in electricity and internet charges to download in the same quality than I paid for them.

    I'm glad the US pace thing I mentioned has come up repeatedly on this thread as this appears to be in many cases people's sole reason to pirate TV series. I'd like to hear a convincing reason why people shouldn't do it - from the programme makers view the more people they hook on their show the better for them no matter where the viewers come from, I would've thought.

    I wonder whether illegal downloading would decrease if popular shows were made legitimately available online everywhere in the world at the time of first release. I guess it doesn't help when the legality surrounding monitoring file sharing sites varies wildly from country to country: http://torrentfreak.com/dont-download-that-bro-youre-going-to-get-busted-130316/

    I wonder also whether the big media corporations will get the copyright periods on their work extended again to prevent them becoming public domain.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 36,630
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    zx50 wrote: »
    Some of the people in the industry are probably thick as pig's muck when it comes to good business sense. Want to discourage people from buying your products? Just place something in your product that irritates them highly. These people really are the biggest idiots going when it comes to business people. They are so damn sodding arrogant!

    Indeed, unfortunately it is rife.

    Legal consumer.

    DVD/BluRays:
    Buy DVD, take it home or wait for it to be delivered.
    Put DVD/BluRay in player.
    (In case of BluRay, no guarantee it will actually play on an old player.)
    Disc loads.
    (In case of BluRay this can take several minutes).
    Unskippable anti-piracy advert.
    Half a dozen trailers
    (On many but thankfully not all discs).
    Main Menu.
    Click Play.
    Film loads
    (But sometimes another frigging anti-piracy adverts that is unskippable).
    Enjoy film.

    Legal Downloaders/streamers:

    Search for service that has the film you want.
    Don't find it.
    or
    Find it on a service you don't have an account for.
    Sign up for account.
    Load email.
    Click verification email.
    Return to website.
    Agree to pages of terms and conditions.
    Search for film.
    Find it.
    Click DOWNLOAD.
    Read pop that tells you need their own video player to play the file due to DRM.
    or
    Read pop up that tells you you need a specific player (usually Windows Media Player or similar player that supports Silverlight DRM).
    Click through more pages of terms and conditions.
    Agree to terms and conditions.
    Finally get to download the file.
    Click play.
    Watch film.
    Decide to watch film on another device.
    Discover DRM wont allow you to stream it to another unauthorised device, or copy it to another PC or unauthorised device.
    Go back to website to find out how to add your device to the list of authorised players.
    Find the answer buried away on the website.
    Follow instructions.
    Get a message that your device cannot be authorised.
    Search the web for an answer.
    Find out because your other device is an unsupported tablet, unsupported phone or a Linux PC that isn't supported, you cannot play it on another device.

    Pirates:
    Download film.
    Click Play.
    Enjoy film.
    Copy it to any other device.
    Play film.

    I think that about sums it up.
    :D:D
  • KirkfnwKirkfnw Posts: 1,613
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    copthis1 wrote: »
    Do you do it? and if so do you feel guilty doing it?

    File sharing isn't illegal as far as I'm concerned.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 36,630
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    unique wrote: »
    there have been a few studies like this, but i think they are misleading. you could do a study of diet soda and find that most diet soda by volume is bought by fat people, and then conclude that diet soda makes you fat, instead of concluding that fat people eat and drink a lot more, and there is a lot of fat people about

    it's not quite the hawthorne effect, but basically the people who will be downloading music illegally are going to be music fans. and who is going to buy the most music? yup, music fans. so whilst the conclusion has been made that this means that downloading illegally leads to greater sales, the opposite may well be true instead. if illegal downloading wasn't possible then it's likely that sales would be higher as people wanting music would have to pay for it instead. people who aren't intersted in music much aren't as likely to download it illegally, and similarly aren't as likely to buy it legally either. just like a non car user is less likely to buy petrol than a car user

    with studies like this in general, only so many people will participate, and using a forum as an example, you will often only have individuals from a certain type participating, so the findings aren't going to fully consider the thoughts of the whole public. then you have the issue where people participating may give answers in order to disguise their true feelings or bias the poll. so with illegal downloading, and people happy to get stuff for free, they may well give replies that are less than accurate in order to make it look like what they are doing isn't causing any harm. it's it's an open poll or people were asked to participate, the findings are likely to be skewered

    what would be interesting is if you could see how much stuff was downloaded per person compared with how much they bought, to see what little percentages of stuff downloaders actually pay for

    Indeed. (or what massive percentage even :D:D) What is needed as a full, proper independent study.

    Unfortunately studies from both sides are obviously flawed and only get a snapshot of a small subset of people.

    Last year around this time the MPAA released a report that stated hundreds of thousands of jobs were being lost due to piracy and the industry was losing massive amounts of money, but when questioned to show actual evidence and figures, they refused to do so.

    The following week they then released a reports stating that box office takings were up massively, and that profits at most major studios (with the exception of MGM) were also up, so of course, it didn't help their case much.

    A bit of honesty on both sides is needed, and cross industry independent report from an organisation respected on both sides is what is needed. But unfortunately that wont happen.

    As I said, the problem I have with the media industry is the sheer level of corruption and abuse they carry out. Of course it's not all companies that do that, but certainly the larger companies represented by the likes of the MPAA and the RIAA/BPI most certainly do. They really do need to clean up their act before they can then lecture on morality to those who download illegally, as unless they do so, it just looks like hypocrisy and gives the pirates a valid argument to carry on.

    I am glad the music industry has at last woken up, and has made great strides forward in embracing new distribution models and new technology. They are now reaping the rewards too. I wish they had done it sooner though.

    But for some reason the publishing industry and the movie industry seems stuck where the record industry was seven or eight years ago and are having to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century. They don't seem to have learned much from the mistakes the recording industry made, and don't seem to have learned anything about the benefits of embracing the technology that the recording industry has at last woken up to.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,396
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    Kirkfnw wrote: »
    File sharing isn't illegal as far as I'm concerned.

    But it's the law who decides what is illegal, not us.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 36,630
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    Another industry that often gets it wrong is the video games industry, with EA amongst the worst.

    They are getting it right on digital distribution, but they are still causing legal consumers massive headaches with stupid and restrictive DRM schemes though and again, it is EA who are probably the worst. They were recently voted the most hated company in America, especially after the sheer incompetence of the launch of the most recent Sim City.

    But just today, there is evidence they may be starting to take a step back. They have announced that they will no longer require purchasers of second hand games to then pay extra for an online pass, as they now say they recognise the benefits of the second hand game market.

    So massive credit to them for what seems like a massive U Turn, now if only they can think more about their consumers of new games and have a rethink of their god awful DRM systems.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 36,630
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    Kirkfnw wrote: »
    File sharing isn't illegal as far as I'm concerned.

    But it's not up to you, it's up the law makers I am afraid. :D
  • KirkfnwKirkfnw Posts: 1,613
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    But it's not up to you, it's up the law makers I am afraid. :D

    I don't see how it's illegal to share a file from somewhere when the series isn't even televised in this country.
  • Ancient IDTVAncient IDTV Posts: 10,124
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    Wanders down Memory Lane to 'the good old days'.......


    .......when we used to record a film that was on tv onto a blank VHS tape.

    ..........when someone had bought a vinyl album we wanted, and we gave them a blank tape cassette, so they could make a copy for us.

    ......when the kids would tape 8-bit computer games onto blank cassettes, and swap them at school.

    ....when we were repeatedly warned in the '80s that no new games would be made unless pirating was drastically reduced. It never was reduced, yet the gaming industry is bigger than ever.
  • uniqueunique Posts: 12,367
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    And what if I'm watching at US pace? They certainly won't be available in iTunes UK. I've looked.
    well if you want US tv shows, try looking on a US itunes account, which you can open easily without a credit card. you can buy stuff with itunes vouchers that you can buy on the internet
    It's no worse than recording something off the TV. You get the DVDs afterwards because of all the added extras. I doubt iTunes releases those.

    recording something off the tv to playback once is legal though. it's called timeshifting and the uk law allows for this, but not to keep it. downloading movies or tv shows without permission is not legal
  • uniqueunique Posts: 12,367
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    What is and isnt legal?
    Dowlnoading tv shows such as breaking bad etc
    Games
    Movies
    Music.

    Im confused I thought downloading was illegal not just uploading
    downloading and uploading is illegal if you do it without permission. you were right
  • SambdaSambda Posts: 6,185
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    Last year around this time the MPAA released a report that stated hundreds of thousands of jobs were being lost due to piracy and the industry was losing massive amounts of money, but when questioned to show actual evidence and figures, they refused to do so.

    Their usual reckoning seems to be something like this:
    1) Pay external consultancy firm to assess number of illegal downloads of material.
    2) Assume each download is a sale lost.
    3) Multiply (1) by retail price of product.

    Each stage involves assumptions or inaccuracies, especially stage 2, so what comes out the end means, basically, nothing.
  • uniqueunique Posts: 12,367
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    Kirkfnw wrote: »
    I don't see how it's illegal to share a file from somewhere when the series isn't even televised in this country.
    because it's illegal to copy stuff without permission. it doesn't matter if it's been released in this country or not, but with tv shows, movies and games you will typically find someone will have the pre arranged rights to it in the uk, as deals are usually struck long before something is released anywhere, but often part of a deal, particularly with tv shows, is the time frame for release. if you want to show dexter the day after US broadcast it costs a LOT more than starting to show the season after the end of the season is shown in the states, which is why sky atlantic have the HBO stuff as they paid a lot for it
  • uniqueunique Posts: 12,367
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    Indeed. (or what massive percentage even :D:D) What is needed as a full, proper independent study.
    yes, but a study on studies. i think if there was a full blown study that investigated studies you would find a large amount of the findings is very different from the truth. particularly when it comes to things like downloading, drug taking or sex. some people will lie to say they don't when they do, and others will say they've done things they haven't, like teenagers saying they take coke and have orgies, lying due to peer pressure to look cool
    Unfortunately studies from both sides are obviously flawed and only get a snapshot of a small subset of people.
    yeah, and you don't even know if they have given honest answers, made mistakes or got bored and clicked through the answers
    Last year around this time the MPAA released a report that stated hundreds of thousands of jobs were being lost due to piracy and the industry was losing massive amounts of money, but when questioned to show actual evidence and figures, they refused to do so.

    The following week they then released a reports stating that box office takings were up massively, and that profits at most major studios (with the exception of MGM) were also up, so of course, it didn't help their case much.
    that's been happening for years. i think it was spiderman 2 that was hitting huge sales just as piracy was hitting new highs, and you had the same thing
    however, just because films are still breaking records, it still doesn't mean piracy isn't having a big effect. the population is growing, so more consumers for product, typically more disposable income, even with a credit crunch or recession, as kids are usually recession proof. you ask young teenagers about the recession. they don't pay mortgages, they money they get, they spend, and a large amount of movies, music and games is bought by them. due to inflation, costs go up, so in turn box office take should increase proportionately, which is why some crap film shows as taking 72 times more money than star wars, as the figures aren't inflation linked. imdb i think has an inflation linked list that shows something like gone with the wind towards the top spot, as back then there wasn't as much competition and movies stayed in theatres for months, few had tv, so everyone would see the big movies

    today you also have the case where a lot of kids, and now even adults, who consume large amounts of music but have never bought a single peice of music in their life as they have grown up as part of the napster/torrent/p2p generation. that's worse than the aging generation who would typically reduce purchases of music through age and getting a family, etc, and then moving to downloading for free. once the generation of downloaders spring another generation, it doesn't bode well for legal sales as long as illegal piracy is as easy to do and people get away with it
    A bit of honesty on both sides is needed, and cross industry independent report from an organisation respected on both sides is what is needed. But unfortunately that wont happen.
    no it won't. but really why should the industry have to do it? they create the product, they can do what they want with it. part of the bigger problem is people have a sense of entitlement to obtain things for free if they don't want to pay for them, and make up all sorts of excuses, many of which are here, such as "it's not on uk tv" or "try before you buy". society lived for decades before p2p without downloading tv shows and music. if you wanted to hear an record you usually had to buy it first. if you wanted to see a movie you had to go to the cinema, or wait months/years to be on tv. then vhs came along and changed things a bit, dvd also, but before p2p you couldn't just get what you wanted for free, and people lived perfectly normal lives
    As I said, the problem I have with the media industry is the sheer level of corruption and abuse they carry out. Of course it's not all companies that do that, but certainly the larger companies represented by the likes of the MPAA and the RIAA/BPI most certainly do. They really do need to clean up their act before they can then lecture on morality to those who download illegally, as unless they do so, it just looks like hypocrisy and gives the pirates a valid argument to carry on.

    good point. but two wrongs don't make a right. but who wants to be right when you can have fun instead?
    I am glad the music industry has at last woken up, and has made great strides forward in embracing new distribution models and new technology. They are now reaping the rewards too. I wish they had done it sooner though.
    i think they share the same sentiment. imagine if HMV got onboard quicker, they wouldn't have shut down all those stores. lots of jobs were lost there, and zavvi and woolworths
    But for some reason the publishing industry and the movie industry seems stuck where the record industry was seven or eight years ago and are having to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century. They don't seem to have learned much from the mistakes the recording industry made, and don't seem to have learned anything about the benefits of embracing the technology that the recording industry has at last woken up to.
    i think they are fully aware, but there is just a lot more to it than you know. there are huge legal issues regarding things going back years that affect current releases. you wouldn't believe some of the legal things relating to a dvd release. things such as credits before the movie starts, placement of titles, length of dvd extras (you notice most dvds have 23 shorts instead of one 60 minute thing to watch at once? - it's for legal reasons). much of it is down to union agreements
  • Shaun_MurrayShaun_Murray Posts: 318
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    My sister had a copied DVD of The Day After Tomorrow. First thing that appeared: You wouldn't...
    I love full DVD rips. :D
    Me and my dad borrowed a Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds DVD from my Uncle, it was a copy but had all of the features on too.
  • Shaun_MurrayShaun_Murray Posts: 318
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    Kirkfnw wrote: »
    File sharing isn't illegal as far as I'm concerned.

    File sharing isn't illegal.
    Sharing copyrighted material is however.
  • Bulletguy1Bulletguy1 Posts: 18,429
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    unique wrote: »
    but why would you see it as an infringement of human rights to prevent people effectively taking other peoples work without paying for it?

    if it was your work that someone else copied and didn't pay you, or even made money from the work that you had done, without recompensing you, would you still be happy with it?
    When power is wielded by extremely wealthy industries (or Government) to the point of persuading ISP's to block subscribers to particular sites, I see that as interfering with peoples basic human rights. We are supposedly living in a Democracy.....not under a Totalitarian State. And that is what I find quite worrying.

    BIB you have answered your own question there as it's been pointed out before in other posts you are copying......not taking.

    A good example of copying as opposed to taking or stealing is to look at the fashion world. Whenever models take to the catwalk parading the latest over priced 'must haves' for the super rich, High street store artists are busying themselves away sketching up the design of that dress, which will be selling in the High street chain stores to the 'riff raff' with an affordable price tag.



    unique wrote: »
    .....how about if you were made redundant from your job because piracy reduced the requirement for so many people doing your job? so you are hundreds or thousands of others that do that type of work around the country and world, including many of your collegues, lose your jobs and the possibility of gaining further work in that field is reduced - would you still support peoples rights to be able to download stuff for free, over the rights of the workers to have some protection for their job? look at all the jobs lost at zavvi, hmv, woolworths, best buy, gamestation, game, blockbuster, tower records, etc
    This is an interesting analogy you use........as it's been happening for a number of years now.

    The introduction of temporary contracted "casual" employment has allowed employers to 'hire 'n fire' at will giving casual employees no form of future or security (for example they cannot apply for a mortgage). It has also affected income levels of the fully contracted employee by keeping any increase in pay down to a bare minimum, 1-2% being commonplace.

    As a result of 'casual' labour, redundancies have indeed taken place throughout many industries. I myself am one amongst those, though in my case I benefitted from it as it enabled me to take early retirement, but many have not been so fortunate. My neighbour was a hand paintress working on figures for Royal Doulton. That's highly skilled work which took her years to learn and develop. She spent ten years under the watch of a qualified paintress before being 'let loose' on the Factory floor to work on her own.

    In 2005 Doultons decided to ship all the work out to Indonesia to get it done 'on the cheap'. My neighbour was offered work with what bit of the Factory still remained (now demolished) on the minimum wage.

    She resigned in disgust and never went back.
  • Shaun_MurrayShaun_Murray Posts: 318
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    unique wrote: »
    how about if you were made redundant from your job because piracy reduced the requirement for so many people doing your job? so you are hundreds or thousands of others that do that type of work around the country and world, including many of your collegues, lose your jobs and the possibility of gaining further work in that field is reduced - would you still support peoples rights to be able to download stuff for free, over the rights of the workers to have some protection for their job? look at all the jobs lost at zavvi, hmv, woolworths, best buy, gamestation, game, blockbuster, tower records, etc
    Those people have lost their jobs because the companies did not move with the times and offer a more up to date service.
    Something that is happening throughout the media industry, they want to keep using the outdated ways because it allows them to make massive profits.

    However the way we consume our media has changed, with the emphasis being less on physical media, and more on online services.
    The only industry that this has not badly affected is the game industry as most games are still sold on physical media.
  • shoestring25shoestring25 Posts: 4,715
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    thing is that narks me is them charging often more for a HD download than a blu ray disc. why would you buy the download?
  • Admiral StarAdmiral Star Posts: 2,114
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    unique wrote: »
    well if you want US tv shows, try looking on a US itunes account, which you can open easily without a credit card. you can buy stuff with itunes vouchers that you can buy on the internet



    recording something off the tv to playback once is legal though. it's called timeshifting and the uk law allows for this, but not to keep it. downloading movies or tv shows without permission is not legal

    Maybe I should look at it but I'd have to see how up to date they are with the TV programmes I watch. Anything that I download is normally watched once anyway. Then when it comes out on DVD I normally buy it.

    The thing is if I went through a vpn I could probably watch all these shows free on catchup services at CBS.net anyway.
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