That doesn't mean that availability should always be constrained by the limitations of the DTT platform. There is no restriction to BBC content being FTV, particularly as the SD FTA path would remain available.
Actually I believe that 3 and 4 should be on FreeSat, sooner rather than later, even if its the best part of a decade before DTT catches up. (Actually, we know it will be sooner than that).
the BBC should get it ready on Dsat and cable and then launch it somewhere between now and when it can be on DTT with the promise it will be on DTT soon enough and try and get offcom to make the spare spectrum available sooner if possible.
There's not really. Putting BBC4 and BBC3 on D-SAT and cable on HD is trivial compared to doing the same on DTT. Trivial - relative, yes but still in the order of bringing forward some refresh, configuring some statmux nd finding some space. The latter is of course the challenge, the rest is willpower driven relatively low capital project stuff. Putting 3 and 4 onto cable, given the availability of a SDI feed of the things anywhere within 30 miles of Langley is really Virgin's problem, not the BBC's.
Can you see BBC HD content only being available on a pay platform (cable)? Because I cannot, and I would think that many LF payers would have a understandable grievance if that were the case, not to mention the BBC Trust. And of course this time the Daily Mail would, quite justifiably, have a field day.
So cable by itself just would not happen.
D-Sat is more of an issue, but even so not that much. If FreeSat were not part of the requirement, then we all realise that BSkyB would jump at the opportunity of having 3/4 available as a captive on satellite, even if it were FTV.
And the costs as previously identified by technologist are not an issue then?
And I gather there is much more to supporting an additional HD channel or two than simply transponder space! See earlier post from technologist - which contains this info (written about the many BBC one HD regions but relevant to additional channels too):
But until SD is turned off - have the BBC One regions even upscaled requires another 4 DSAT transponders (in addition to the 6 currently used) and about another 10 Plus resilience HD DTT coders and Stat muxes for 5 channels and 16 HD DSAT coding chains ..... Ie a lot of cost ..... even before you work out how to signal and switch the region SD to the HD Chain....
dual illumination costs a lot ... !!!!!
Its actually really frustrating that content created by licence payers in HD cannot be seen by them.
Well, I am a licence fee payer, and I am not at all frustrated. It's hardly something that I lose sleep over, and considering the relatively low viewing figures for HD, I guess that many LF payers are simply not that bothered.
I can see the programming in SD. Just a I always have. What I find frustrating is content that is produced in HD, shown in HD and then only released on DVD and not blu-ray (content produced by the BBC and not an independent production company).
Can you see BBC HD content only being available on a p.............nt produced by the BBC and not an independent production company).
Sorry Mossy but please re-read mine and Technologist's posts, then reply with something that indicates that you understand what we we we both trying to say.... sorry, but you've just not read the post and that's clear by your reply.
That doesn't mean that availability should always be constrained by the limitations of the DTT platform. There is no restriction to BBC content being FTV, particularly as the SD FTA path would remain available.
Actually I believe that 3 and 4 should be on FreeSat, sooner rather than later, even if its the best part of a decade before DTT catches up. (Actually, we know it will be sooner than that).
What'd be the point of being FTV? No money from Sky, no copyright issues because narrow beam transponders are available. They can put extra HD channels FTA on satellite and cable whenever they want, they just choose not to for whatever reason (cost, platform neutrality, whatever).
Sorry Mossy but please re-read mine and Technologist's posts, then reply with something that indicates that you understand what we we we both trying to say.... sorry, but you've just not read the post and that's clear by your reply.
Whoa one moment - you mentioned DSAT and cable, and I specifically referenced cable in my reply, with cable being a pay platform in this country (as a VirginMedia broadband customer, I cannot see VirginMedia offering any of the BBC channels for nothing, there will still be monthly charges to receive the cable TV service- ergo it is behind a paywall of some form).
Unless you are aware of a VM cable package that will enable me to receive the BBC channels, including the HD ones, without any monthly charge or subscription to a VM TV package?
As for costs, in post #71 (a reply to your good self actually) I pointed to a previous post by technologist that referred to setting up regional variations of BBC one HD, and when first referenced I clearly indicated that was the case but that the principle was the same by stating
And I gather there is much more to supporting an additional HD channel or two than simply transponder space! See earlier post from technologist - which contains this info (written about the many BBC one HD regions but relevant to additional channels too):
(i.e. to put a new HD service on DSAT is not simply down to the cost of an additional transponder if required, there are other costs on the ground, such as DSAT coding chains)
I then repeated that reference in a later reply to you - perhaps you missed that earlier post #71.
So yes, I DID read the posts correctly, and unless there has been a gross misunderstanding on my part, my reply was wholly relevant.
But will acquired programmes like US comedies and the foreign language dramas ever get a BBC Two airing or appear on iPlayer in HD?
I suspect not.
If they have acquired the relevant HD rights, then yes. Especially if the BBC hopes to run repeats on one of the main channels, or if they have done so by way of future-proofing themselves
As the DQF proposals seemed to rely on BARB's poor viewing figures for BBC HD, they seem to think it's not important.
Can you provide a source that confirms this reliance, the supposed link to the DQF proposals, and any subsequent decision in this area by the BBC? Because I can't recollect seeing anything of the sort either within the BBC's original DQF document, or the final one approved by the BBC Trust
Can you provide a source that confirms this reliance, the supposed link to the DQF proposals, and any subsequent decision in this area by the BBC? Because I can't recollect seeing anything of the sort either within the BBC's original DQF document, or the final one approved by the BBC Trust
I'm searching!! It's the document that stated the average peak time viewing of BBC One HD.
As the DQF proposals seemed to rely on BARB's poor viewing figures for BBC HD, they seem to think it's not important.
and this is why putting BBC 2 HD at LNC 2/102 on epgs of HD receivers in England and
BBC 1 HD in Wales, Scotland and NI on LNC 1/101 on epgs of HD receivers in Wales, Scotland and NI and
put the BBC 1 HD England on LNC 6/106 on all epgs of HD receivers and
BBC2 HD in Wales, Scotland and NI on LNC 7/107 on epgs of HD receivers in Wales, Scotland and NI and
relegating the SD version of BBC 1 in Wales, Scotland and NI and BBC2 SD in England on HD receivers to the 900s on satellite and 101/102 on freeview and where ever the HD version was on other platforms.
This would get people with HD receivers watching the BBC HD channels more as they would then see them and in most cases they would just be where the SD ones were before so they would just watch them without realising. If the BBC initialised this with Offcom backing then all platforms would just have to go with it.
But as I and others keep on pointing out .. Section 310 or is it 320 of the Comms act 2003 which gives PSB prominence ..and the various subsisting rules do not permit this ... And it is not a matter for the BBC .. As those provisions lie with the EPG operators. Viz sky freeview and Virgin who control the stb and DigitalUK (was DMOL) who provide the DTT EPG.
But as I and others keep on pointing out .. Section 310 or is it 320 of the Comms act 2003 which gives PSB prominence ..and the various subsisting rules do not permit this ... And it is not a matter for the BBC .. As those provisions lie with the EPG operators. Viz sky freeview and Virgin who control the stb and DigitalUK (was DMOL) who provide the DTT EPG.
BBC 1 HD is exactly the same in Wales, Scotland and NI as the SD counterparts and BBC 2 HD when it is BBC2HD on Tuesday will be the same as BBC2 England SD. So to the average viewer the only difference is it is HD, if those HD channels were placed on the positions of the SD versions, people would not complain as they would in effect be getting a better service as the main channel would appear to just go HD at the 'right' position for that channel.
Nothing will "happen" to them, they will just be HD content that might get a repeat airing on one the the BBC's existing HD channels, or might get shown on Cbeebies HD/CBBC HD/BBC Three HD or BBC Four HD if and when those channels are launched in the future.
It makes sense to film in HD, if only for repeat, archival or overseas sales purposes.
They won't exactly be aired in HD because there isn't a HD channel available for it. Unless there's a chance it'll be repeated on BBC1.
BBC 1 HD is exactly the same in Wales, Scotland and NI as the SD counterparts and BBC 2 HD when it is BBC2HD ......
YES BUT the law says different .... as it does not cope with two versions of the same content being on the same platform.....
particular when few watch the one that you say needs promoting.
Lobby your MP....... there is a new Comms act due -
But will we be having as similar debate in a few years time when discovery is more important than EPG for finding your viewing ??
And remember DQF channel pairing will give more narrative repeat in HD of first emitted in SD material
and the BBC executive have alreday indicated a way forward for all BBC Channels to be simulcast HD
- but with some limitations -lake Regional BBC One and the lack of universality for anything but BBC one and BBC two on some platforms.
Things are changing .... as the BBC looks after its money ..
and BTW what about the other 3 PSB - one seem very reluctant to even originate in HD.. let alone emit.
YES BUT the law says different .... as it does not cope with two versions of the same content being on the same platform.....
particular when few watch the one that you say needs promoting.
Lobby your MP....... there is a new Comms act due -
But will we be having as similar debate in a few years time when discovery is more important than EPG for finding your viewing ??
And remember DQF channel pairing will give more narrative repeat in HD of first emitted in SD material
and the BBC executive have alreday indicated a way forward for all BBC Channels to be simulcast HD
- but with some limitations -lake Regional BBC One and the lack of universality for anything but BBC one and BBC two on some platforms.
Things are changing .... as the BBC looks after its money ..
and BTW what about the other 3 PSB - one seem very reluctant to even originate in HD.. let alone emit.
well I found the part of the Comms act you are referring to:
310Code of practice for electronic programme guides
(1)It shall be the duty of OFCOM to draw up, and from time to time to review and revise, a code giving guidance as to the practices to be followed in the provision of electronic programme guides.
(2)The practices required by the code must include the giving, in the manner provided for in the code, of such degree of prominence as OFCOM consider appropriate to—
(a)the listing or promotion, or both the listing and promotion, for members of its intended audience, of the programmes included in each public service channel; and
(b)the facilities, in the case of each such channel, for members of its intended audience to select or access the programmes included in it.
(3)The practices required by the code must also include the incorporation of such features in electronic programme guides as OFCOM consider appropriate for securing that persons with disabilities affecting their sight or hearing or both —
(a)are able, so far as practicable, to make use of such guides for all the same purposes as persons without such disabilities; and
(b)are informed about, and are able to make use of, whatever assistance for disabled people is provided in relation to the programmes listed or promoted.
(4)Subject to subsection (5), in subsection (2) the reference to the public service channels is a reference to any of the following—
(a)any service of television programmes provided by the BBC in digital form so as to be available for reception by members of the public;
(b)any Channel 3 service in digital form;
(c)Channel 4 in digital form;
(d)Channel 5 in digital form;
(e)S4C Digital;
(f)the digital public teletext service.
(5)The Secretary of State may by order—
(a)add any programme service to the services for the time being specified in subsection (4) as public service channels; or
(b)delete a service from that subsection.
(6)Before making an order under subsection (5) the Secretary of State must consult OFCOM.
(7)In this section “intended audience”, in relation to a service of any description, means—
(a)if the service is provided only for a particular area or locality of the United Kingdom, members of the public in that area or locality;
(b)if it is provided for members of a particular community, members of that community; and
(c)in any other case, members of the public in the United Kingdom.
(8)In this section “electronic programme guide” means a service which consists of—
(a)the listing or promotion, or both the listing and the promotion, of some or all of the programmes included in any one or more programme services the providers of which are or include persons other than the provider of the guide; and
(b)a facility for obtaining access, in whole or in part, to the programme service or services listed or promoted in the guide.
It obviously says nothing about HD channels and nothing about what channel numbers they are on. It also says that any BBC services should be given prominence should the 13 PSB channels by this document be given the prominence on all EPGs meaning BBC channes are on the first two then ITV, C4 and C5 on 3rd, 4th and 5th respectively and other BBC services on 6th - 13th according to the act that is what I see they should be how else do you interpret
any service of television programmes provided by the BBC in digital form so as to be available for reception by members of the public;
emphasis on the word 'ANY'.
I think that then when this can be the case the BBC should then be able to decide which of the SD/HD variant of the channels BBC1/2 should be on the the 1st and 2nd spaces of the epg.
I know operators like Sky would go crazy at this but if its in the comms act why are other BBC channels beyond BBC1 and BBC2 SD not given due prominence?
And regarding ITV HD if its the right HD region it could and should go at the 3rd place on the EPG and channel 4 and 5 if they wish to be HD should go at 4th and 5th spots on the EPG especialy C4 as its on freeview (just not in Wales) but Channel 5 being stubborn about its HD services is another matter.
The idea behind having HD versions of channels being prominent on the epg though is to achieve a bigger audience for HD by default, as people naturally go to the first 5 to find the first 5 PSB channels.
How about using the overnight hours for BBC ONE HD and BBC TWO HD to repeat programming in HD on THREE and FOUR instead of simulcasting the news channel? At least that way something in HD being shown on THREE/FOUR can still be seen/recorded in HD the same day instead of waiting a few days or not at all for a HD broadcast.
Then when the repeats are finished, if there is time left, then simulcast the news channel, or if it's getting close to 6am, show some CBBC / CBeebies stuff in HD too?
putting some BBC3/4 on daytime repeats on BBC2, if they can be on before the watershed, is a good idea too, and as BBC News is made in HD then having some of it on BBC1/2 in HD is a good idea as it cant be seen in HD at other times
Comments
the BBC should get it ready on Dsat and cable and then launch it somewhere between now and when it can be on DTT with the promise it will be on DTT soon enough and try and get offcom to make the spare spectrum available sooner if possible.
So cable by itself just would not happen.
And the costs as previously identified by technologist are not an issue then?
As posted previously:
Well, I am a licence fee payer, and I am not at all frustrated. It's hardly something that I lose sleep over, and considering the relatively low viewing figures for HD, I guess that many LF payers are simply not that bothered.
I can see the programming in SD. Just a I always have. What I find frustrating is content that is produced in HD, shown in HD and then only released on DVD and not blu-ray (content produced by the BBC and not an independent production company).
Sorry Mossy but please re-read mine and Technologist's posts, then reply with something that indicates that you understand what we we we both trying to say.... sorry, but you've just not read the post and that's clear by your reply.
What'd be the point of being FTV? No money from Sky, no copyright issues because narrow beam transponders are available. They can put extra HD channels FTA on satellite and cable whenever they want, they just choose not to for whatever reason (cost, platform neutrality, whatever).
Option two: HD on iplayer, including TV versions.
Whoa one moment - you mentioned DSAT and cable, and I specifically referenced cable in my reply, with cable being a pay platform in this country (as a VirginMedia broadband customer, I cannot see VirginMedia offering any of the BBC channels for nothing, there will still be monthly charges to receive the cable TV service- ergo it is behind a paywall of some form).
Unless you are aware of a VM cable package that will enable me to receive the BBC channels, including the HD ones, without any monthly charge or subscription to a VM TV package?
As for costs, in post #71 (a reply to your good self actually) I pointed to a previous post by technologist that referred to setting up regional variations of BBC one HD, and when first referenced I clearly indicated that was the case but that the principle was the same by stating
(i.e. to put a new HD service on DSAT is not simply down to the cost of an additional transponder if required, there are other costs on the ground, such as DSAT coding chains)
I then repeated that reference in a later reply to you - perhaps you missed that earlier post #71.
So yes, I DID read the posts correctly, and unless there has been a gross misunderstanding on my part, my reply was wholly relevant.
The y are certainly committed to the second option, and the first option is likely (apart from maybe using the overnight slots)
But will acquired programmes like US comedies and the foreign language dramas ever get a BBC Two airing or appear on iPlayer in HD?
I suspect not.
As the DQF proposals seemed to rely on BARB's poor viewing figures for BBC HD, they seem to think it's not important.
Can you provide a source that confirms this reliance, the supposed link to the DQF proposals, and any subsequent decision in this area by the BBC? Because I can't recollect seeing anything of the sort either within the BBC's original DQF document, or the final one approved by the BBC Trust
I'm searching!! It's the document that stated the average peak time viewing of BBC One HD.
and this is why putting BBC 2 HD at LNC 2/102 on epgs of HD receivers in England and
BBC 1 HD in Wales, Scotland and NI on LNC 1/101 on epgs of HD receivers in Wales, Scotland and NI and
put the BBC 1 HD England on LNC 6/106 on all epgs of HD receivers and
BBC2 HD in Wales, Scotland and NI on LNC 7/107 on epgs of HD receivers in Wales, Scotland and NI and
relegating the SD version of BBC 1 in Wales, Scotland and NI and BBC2 SD in England on HD receivers to the 900s on satellite and 101/102 on freeview and where ever the HD version was on other platforms.
This would get people with HD receivers watching the BBC HD channels more as they would then see them and in most cases they would just be where the SD ones were before so they would just watch them without realising. If the BBC initialised this with Offcom backing then all platforms would just have to go with it.
Are you thinking of this (p.6)?
BBC 1 HD is exactly the same in Wales, Scotland and NI as the SD counterparts and BBC 2 HD when it is BBC2HD on Tuesday will be the same as BBC2 England SD. So to the average viewer the only difference is it is HD, if those HD channels were placed on the positions of the SD versions, people would not complain as they would in effect be getting a better service as the main channel would appear to just go HD at the 'right' position for that channel.
They won't exactly be aired in HD because there isn't a HD channel available for it. Unless there's a chance it'll be repeated on BBC1.
I assume that when mossy2103 says:
mossy2103 means the HD channels BBC1 HD and BBC2 HD
YES BUT the law says different .... as it does not cope with two versions of the same content being on the same platform.....
particular when few watch the one that you say needs promoting.
Lobby your MP....... there is a new Comms act due -
But will we be having as similar debate in a few years time when discovery is more important than EPG for finding your viewing ??
And remember DQF channel pairing will give more narrative repeat in HD of first emitted in SD material
and the BBC executive have alreday indicated a way forward for all BBC Channels to be simulcast HD
- but with some limitations -lake Regional BBC One and the lack of universality for anything but BBC one and BBC two on some platforms.
Things are changing .... as the BBC looks after its money ..
and BTW what about the other 3 PSB - one seem very reluctant to even originate in HD.. let alone emit.
well I found the part of the Comms act you are referring to:
310Code of practice for electronic programme guides
(source http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/21/section/310/prospective )
It obviously says nothing about HD channels and nothing about what channel numbers they are on. It also says that any BBC services should be given prominence should the 13 PSB channels by this document be given the prominence on all EPGs meaning BBC channes are on the first two then ITV, C4 and C5 on 3rd, 4th and 5th respectively and other BBC services on 6th - 13th according to the act that is what I see they should be how else do you interpret emphasis on the word 'ANY'.
I think that then when this can be the case the BBC should then be able to decide which of the SD/HD variant of the channels BBC1/2 should be on the the 1st and 2nd spaces of the epg.
I know operators like Sky would go crazy at this but if its in the comms act why are other BBC channels beyond BBC1 and BBC2 SD not given due prominence?
And regarding ITV HD if its the right HD region it could and should go at the 3rd place on the EPG and channel 4 and 5 if they wish to be HD should go at 4th and 5th spots on the EPG especialy C4 as its on freeview (just not in Wales) but Channel 5 being stubborn about its HD services is another matter.
The idea behind having HD versions of channels being prominent on the epg though is to achieve a bigger audience for HD by default, as people naturally go to the first 5 to find the first 5 PSB channels.
Then when the repeats are finished, if there is time left, then simulcast the news channel, or if it's getting close to 6am, show some CBBC / CBeebies stuff in HD too?
That's the one. Many thanks. So their main justification for closing the channel is low viewing figures (supplied by BARB).