Rooney...

Mark FMark F Posts: 53,843
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Given he will break Bobby Charlton's goal scoring record where does he stand among the top England strikers?

Many will probably quite rightly point to his disappointing tournament scoring record and say that marks him down but he has been very consistent (when others haven't) in qualifying.

It is a shame we have not see the best of Rooney when it really matters (since 2004) for various reasons and I feel whilst you have to credit him for breaking the record there are others who could be considered greater.
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  • rhynoGBrhynoGB Posts: 4,278
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    You can't deny his scoring abilty for England. But would I put him along the likes of Charlton, Greaves & Lineker?

    Did any of those play teams like San Marino or the Faroe Islands?

    We won't know how great he is until he finishes really but since he's been both Utd & England captain, he seems to have matured greatly.

    Major Tournments like World Cups & Euros are where he'll be judged. Much like Messi, he has never really done it at the highest level . Also having crap England managers who haven't got a clue how to play him makes his job harder.
  • batdude_uk1batdude_uk1 Posts: 78,722
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    I think he is the sort of player that will be more appreciated when he stops playing then whilst he still is.

    If you think about it, by the time he retires, he could be England's and Manchester United's all time record goalscorer, not that bad a feat really to have is it?

    If that does transpire, then what more could anyone ask of him?
  • DUNDEEBOYDUNDEEBOY Posts: 109,937
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    Rooney is a great goalscorer against minnows.

    He struggles in finals tournaments though as he can't lift it to the standard required against better teams
  • batdude_uk1batdude_uk1 Posts: 78,722
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    rhynoGB wrote: »
    You can't deny his scoring abilty for England. But would I put him along the likes of Charlton, Greaves & Lineker?

    Did any of those play teams like San Marino or the Faroe Islands?

    We won't know how great he is until he finishes really but since he's been both Utd & England captain, he seems to have matured greatly.

    Was Lineker not in the team that played San Marino when they scored past us after something like 9 seconds, or something like that? I was only a small boy then when that match was played, so my memory is a bit hazy.
  • rhynoGBrhynoGB Posts: 4,278
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    I think he is the sort of player that will be more appreciated when he stops playing then whilst he still is.

    If you think about it, by the time he retires, he could be England's and Manchester United's all time record goalscorer, not that bad a feat really to have is it?

    If that does transpire, then what more could anyone ask of him?

    When you look at the greats that Utd and England have had over the years, it's a huge acheivement to finish as top goal scorer for both.
  • batdude_uk1batdude_uk1 Posts: 78,722
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    rhynoGB wrote: »
    When you look at the greats that Utd and England have had over the years, it's a huge acheivement to finish as top goal scorer for both.

    Exactly, I fully agree with you there.

    Yes there have been things away from the football pitch which have brought negative headlines, but on the pitch, he has been very good indeed.

    And if he does manage to get both of the records, that would really cement his legacy.
  • rhynoGBrhynoGB Posts: 4,278
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    Exactly, I fully agree with you there.

    Yes there have been things away from the football pitch which have brought negative headlines, but on the pitch, he has been very good indeed.

    And if he does manage to get both of the records, that would really cement his legacy.

    I agree. I don't care what a player does outside of the pitch, as long as they do the business on it. So much negative gossip these days.

    Build them up to knock them down.
  • Deep PurpleDeep Purple Posts: 63,255
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    He's done very well, but there have been much better strikers.

    Jimmy Greaves would be out of sight of everyone if he'd played the same number of games as those close to his total.
  • JanielovesyouJanielovesyou Posts: 814
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    Only needs one more Red Card to be outright leader in that category as well

    Don't think that double will be beaten for a while

    Top player who could have done with a bit more help

    As mentioned above, we'll only miss him and realise how important a role he played until he's retired
  • Eddie hunterEddie hunter Posts: 4,231
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    Wayne Rooney could go on to lift the Euro's next Summer and it wont be enough for some people who refuse to give him any sort of credit.

    If over 100 caps and a 1 in 2 record is so easy why has no one else managed it in the modern era for England?

    The truth is the international team is probably at its most disliked and excuses will be made for any achievement an individual attains.

    Rooney will probably finish his career with most caps and goals for his country and most goals for his club but will still be looked on as someone who was "good" by many which is in many way completely bizarre.
  • batdude_uk1batdude_uk1 Posts: 78,722
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    That is what I meant by being more appreciated when he has retired then he is currently.

    To score so many goals at club and international level is really hard to do, and it shows just how good he has been for so long.
  • DUNDEEBOYDUNDEEBOY Posts: 109,937
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    Wayne Rooney could go on to lift the Euro's next Summer and it wont be enough for some people who refuse to give him any sort of credit.

    If over 100 caps and a 1 in 2 record is so easy why has no one else managed it in the modern era for England?

    The truth is the international team is probably at its most disliked and excuses will be made for any achievement an individual attains.

    Rooney will probably finish his career with most caps and goals for his country and most goals for his club but will still be looked on as someone who was "good" by many which is in many way completely bizarre.

    Until he does it in a finals tournament nothing will change , he only really did it in euro 2004
  • ShaunIOWShaunIOW Posts: 11,319
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    I'd like to see a comparrision between the players of how many goals they scored from open play and not from the penalty spot.

    As for opposition a lot of the Eastern Bloc countries didn't exist untill recently as we still had the USSR, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia and the likes of San Marino, Faroes Islands, Andorra etc have only been in UEFA for around 20 years or so, some less than that, so not only were there less weak countries, there was also less matches as qualifying groups were only 4 teams and not 6 as UEFA increased in size by about 20 countries, plus less matches in finals tournaments as less countries qualified (World Cup was 16 countries untill 82, and European Championships 4 countries till 1976 and 8 countries till 1996.
  • zielerzieler Posts: 8,038
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    rhynoGB wrote: »
    You can't deny his scoring abilty for England. But would I put him along the likes of Charlton, Greaves & Lineker?

    Did any of those play teams like San Marino or the Faroe Islands?

    We won't know how great he is until he finishes really but since he's been both Utd & England captain, he seems to have matured greatly.

    Major Tournments like World Cups & Euros are where he'll be judged. Much like Messi, he has never really done it at the highest level . Also having crap England managers who haven't got a clue how to play him makes his job harder.

    Might not have played San Marino, but Charlton had his fair share of 'easy' games. He scored 13 goals in matches where England scored 8 or more goals. Rooney has never scored in a match where England managed more than 6 for comparison.
  • South Coast52South Coast52 Posts: 5,378
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    Was Lineker not in the team that played San Marino when they scored past us after something like 9 seconds, or something like that? I was only a small boy then when that match was played, so my memory is a bit hazy.

    I thought you were a small boy now. :D
  • batdude_uk1batdude_uk1 Posts: 78,722
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    I thought you were a small boy now. :D

    Only mentally according to some people around here it seems! ;-)
  • Xela MXela M Posts: 4,710
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    Until Rooney leads England to at least a semi final in an international tournament, he will never be regarded as anything but "a good player, but..."
  • Tony_DanielsTony_Daniels Posts: 3,575
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    Xela M wrote: »
    Until Rooney leads England to at least a semi final in an international tournament, he will never be regarded as anything but "a good player, but..."

    Are we pretending for this argument that international football is of a higher standard than club European football?
  • Xela MXela M Posts: 4,710
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    Are we pretending for this argument that international football is of a higher standard than club European football?

    When you are talking about a player's place in history, international football is infinitely more important than club football. It's simply a fact. George Best is the only exception to that due to his cult status, God-like looks and scandalous lifestyle.
  • FMKKFMKK Posts: 32,074
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    Are we pretending for this argument that international football is of a higher standard than club European football?

    It's hard to believe that this delusion is still ongoing. I mean, has anyone actually been watching international football lately?
  • batdude_uk1batdude_uk1 Posts: 78,722
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    Xela M wrote: »
    When you are talking about a player's place in history, international football is infinitely more important than club football. It's simply a fact. George Best is the only exception to that due to his cult status, God-like looks and scandalous lifestyle.

    So George Weah was a rubbish player as he never even played at a World Cup finals tournament, nevermind score in one!
  • The_don1The_don1 Posts: 17,423
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    Xela M wrote: »
    When you are talking about a player's place in history, international football is infinitely more important than club football. It's simply a fact. George Best is the only exception to that due to his cult status, God-like looks and scandalous lifestyle.

    No its not a fact in any way whatsoever

    It's a opinion and one that arguably might have been understandable a very long time ago but totally out of place today.

    But it's as far a fact as you could possible get
  • PeePee Posts: 8,154
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    Rooney will have the stats when he eventually retires, but those will be as much a consequence of his longevity (which in itself is no small achievement) as anything else. Two things, for me, will count against him when all is said and done. Firstly I don't believe he really came anywhere near maximising his potential, and that can't just be ignored or dismissed because he ends up breaking records. He's had a great career, for sure, he's won everything at club level and will be top scorer for both England and Man U, but that's not the same thing as he himself being a great IMO. Secondly, and on a related note, his international tournament record outside of 2004 is almost negligible. Not so much the goals, I struggle to think of anything particularly noteworthy from him in 2006, 2010, 2012 or 2014. That has to count for something.

    A mainly good - at times exceptionally so - player, but not a great never mind the greatest IMO.
  • Jamesp84Jamesp84 Posts: 31,176
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    I'm convinced some people think Rooney hand picks the teams England get drawn against in qualifiers.
  • Jamesp84Jamesp84 Posts: 31,176
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    Xela M wrote: »
    When you are talking about a player's place in history, international football is infinitely more important than club football. It's simply a fact. George Best is the only exception to that due to his cult status, God-like looks and scandalous lifestyle.

    No. It's an opinion.
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