To be honest, curley, that comparison and some others offends me.
That family shot their child, of COURSE they didn't want to do that, they must have suffered horribly. And they endured a REAL invasion.
Wheras there was Oscar, found with the dead body of his girlfriend who he had shot through the door of a locked toilet.
The rest is just OPs story to try and explain that.
I don't really understand what you are taking offence at. A poster was asking about cases involving shooting someone through a door- I gave the only example that sprang to mind.
I don't really understand what you are taking offence at. A poster was asking about cases involving shooting someone through a door- I gave the only example that sprang to mind.
Why are these cases compared though curley?
One reason - to show somehow that it's possible that OP should only have CH, because he 'made a mistake'.
And the comparisons never work, and equate some obviously terrible accidents to something that isn't obviously an accident at all.
I agree there are differences but DV cases tend to have some similarities and red flags.
There was another case in the US of a man acquitted of murder of his pregnant girlfriend when he said the gun went off by accident when he was examining it. To many it seemed suspicious. Fast forward a few years and he was in trouble again with second girlfriend.
What I said was that Pierre de Vos, a legal expert, opined that PPD in shooting through a closed door has not been successful in SA. Through a partially open door yes.
In the de Oliviera case the man shot through the window, not at a closed door.
So it's not that there have been any cases of PPD (attempted defense of PPD) involving shooting through a closed door?
Yes, I knew there were a number involving shooting through partially open doors.
Throughout the trial Judge Greenland has been extremely logical, knowledgeable and CLEAR about the law and expectations of it.
That's why he is seen as someone to listen to, his obvious thoughtful intellect.
The rest is by the by. He's not on trial.
those who believe OP's Version are going to discredit anyone in authority who speaks out about the Judge's ruling and do not believe OP's nonsense Intruder version - and who think he should have been charged with Murder . Greenland's about ' seeking Justice' just as well has he was a Judge for 30 years - He's been very vocal about the injustice of this Trial to the Victim and the damage this potentially could do to the SA Justice system, and he's not on his own either is he.
Considering too the kind of crimes Greenland must have come across in his time and had the misfortune to hear their terrible crimes in great detail - you can appreciate as he has always worked on the side of the good, law abiding person and punishing guilty criminals , that's why he's very vocal about getting Justice for the deceased in this case - he based his opinion on the evidence he's heard in Court
- he's convicted Defendant's for far less evidence against them than Prosecution had against OP. And as you say, he's NOT on Trial..
I'm saying Pierre de Vos said it hasn't been a successful defense in SA up to now of course.
If you have a SA case we could look at it.
That's what I was asking for examples of such cases for I have looked for what Pierre de Vos said but I'm not finding it just now. There's a difference between saying that attempts at a defense of PPD have failed in cases where there were shots through a closed door and saying that no such cases have ever come up where a defense of PPD was attempted. I'm not sure which Pierre de Vos meant.
One reason - to show somehow that it's possible that OP should only have CH, because he 'made a mistake'.
And the comparisons never work, and equate some obviously terrible accidents to something that isn't obviously an accident at all.
Okay, but I think it's natural to look for existing points of comparison - some posters have made the comparison the Jub Jub case to explore the reasoning behind the verdict, others have compared home invasion cases, others still have compared to Masipa's previous cases, or to other cases involving sports 'stars'. None of them are identical but all have some point of comparison.
those who believe OP's Version are going to discredit anyone in authority who speaks out about the Judge's ruling and do not believe OP's nonsense Intruder version - and who think he should have been charged with Murder . Greenland's about ' seeking Justice' just as well has he was a Judge for 30 years - He's been very vocal about the injustice of this Trial to the Victim and the damage this potentially could do to the SA Justice system, and he's not on his own either is he.
Considering too the kind of crimes Greenland must have come across in his time and had the misfortune to hear their terrible crimes in great detail - you can appreciate as he has always worked on the side of the good, law abiding person and punishing guilty criminals , that's why he's very vocal about getting Justice for the deceased in this case - he based his opinion on the evidence he's heard in Court
- he's convicted Defendant's for far less evidence against them than Prosecution had against OP. And as you say, he's NOT on Trial..
BIB Not always sandy..
Chris Greenland is a highly controversial figure who as a an assessor and magistrate used some outdated legislation promulgated by Ian Smiths government to acquit one of Mugabe's Cabinet Ministers.In doing so he and his fellow assessor(also a magistrate)over-ruled a highly experienced judge.The fact that this Cabinet Minister was as guilty as hell did not bother Chris Greenland
That's what I was asking for examples of such cases for I have looked for what Pierre de Vos said but I'm not finding it just now. There's a difference between saying that attempts at a defense of PPD have failed in cases where there were shots through a closed door and saying that no such cases have ever come up where a defense of PPD was attempted. I'm not sure which Pierre de Vos meant.
I don't have time to look back at my original post on the subject but I thought I would have indicated whether they were successful or not as that was his point. Obviously they have been tried. I said de Vos was a legal expert iirc.
Chris Greenland is a highly controversial figure who as a an assessor and magistrate used some outdated legislation promulgated by Ian Smiths government to acquit one of Mugabe's Cabinet Ministers.In doing so he and his fellow assessor(also a magistrate)over-ruled a highly experienced judge.The fact that this Cabinet Minister was as guilty as hell did not bother Chris Greenland
I get the impression that if Greenland was in Masipa's chair on Op's trial then he would have somehow managed to get him shipped over to the USA to be put to death.
I get the impression that if Greenland was in Masipa's chair on Op's trial then he would have somehow managed to get him shipped over to the USA to be put to death.
you've got to remember Greenland's in his 70's i'd have thought? - imagine what crime was like in Zimbabwe while he was growing up - and when he became a Judge.......he knows all the tricks in the book Defence Lawyer's use , their 'stories', their use of legal technicalities to try get a 'guilty' guy off Murder - he's got such experience and insight, and he saw right through what Roux was trying to do, he sought to confuse the court by introducing first and second sounds and misquote the timelines from the witnesses
and lucky for him, as Greenland said he was successful........as Masipa didn't scrutinise Roux's timeline - He said he'd have found OP guilty of Murder had he been the Judge, as would majority of Criminal Lawyers who've commented on this Case. It's not over yet though, this Case is full of surprises.
Your post said "I already mentioned a case of PPD is which a man shot his father who was coming through a partially open door, myself Shooting through a closed door is apparently different, at least per Pierre de Vos."
So unless you are meaning a different post, you weren't very clear.
I only asked if there had been actual cases of failed PPD defenses in these circumstances or whether none had so far happened so the point hasn't been tested.
I posted on de Voss before that. I'd have to look back at what I said.
you've got to remember Greenland's in his 70's i'd have thought? - imagine what crime was like in Zimbabwe while he was growing up - and when he became a Judge.......he knows all the tricks in the book Defence Lawyer's use , their 'stories', their use of legal technicalities to try get a 'guilty' guy off Murder - he's got such experience and insight, and he saw right through what Roux was trying to do, he sought to confuse the court by introducing first and second sounds and misquote the timelines from the witnesses
and lucky for him, as Greenland said he was successful........as Masipa didn't scrutinise Roux's timeline - He said he'd have found OP guiltly of Murder had he been the Judge, far enough, so would majority of Criminal Lawyers who've commented on this Case in SA too !
Did you know he advocates whipping for certain people?
Chris Greenland.
I have said this before. I was the first High Court Judge in this region to take a stance against whipping as a punishment.
It's pretty ridiculous that, on the same post you slander judge Greenland, you introduce as evidence that directly contradicts your slander.
There's some people who have integrity, and one's continued attempts to slander them just paints you as desperate.
Really, take it from me, pick apart greenlands arguments, dont attack the man, when you've presided as a judge in 30 years in 3rd world countries and tried to advance the cause of justice and law and order to better society, both in profession and by publication, then you can attack his integrity.
Anyone remember see the photo of OP's order for weaponry?
I can't find it now.
I could not believe all he had on order.
What in the world would a ordinary member of the public even in SA want with all those guns and ammo?
it was an arsenal of weapons - he cancelled it in March nearly month after he'd killed Reewa - i posted the order form on here, but someone else may have it too - no idea where that is now:p
Oscar Pistorius, the paralympic athlete accused of murdering his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp, paid R48,500 (£2,700) for seven firearms including two pump-action shotguns and a semi-automatic rifle in an order that was cancelled after the model died.
He added that the Paralympic star had "indicated a great love of and enthusiasm" for guns. Mr Rens said he was introduced to Pistorius through a mutual friend, Justin Divaris, and that he had trained with him at a gun range in 2012 and later sold him weapons.
it was an arsenal of weapons - he cancelled it in March nearly month after he'd killed Reewa - i posted the order form on here, but someone else may have it too - no idea where that is now:p
Oscar Pistorius, the paralympic athlete accused of murdering his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp, paid R48,500 (£2,700) for seven firearms including two pump-action shotguns and a semi-automatic rifle in an order that was cancelled after the model died.
He added that the Paralympic star had "indicated a great love of and enthusiasm" for guns. Mr Rens said he was introduced to Pistorius through a mutual friend, Justin Divaris, and that he had trained with him at a gun range in 2012 and later sold him weapons.
Thank you sandy.
Why though?? Why would anyone need all those weapons?
It's pretty ridiculous that, on the same post you slander judge Greenland, you introduce as evidence that directly contradicts your slander.
There's some people who have integrity, and one's continued attempts to slander them just paints you as desperate.
Really, take it from me, pick apart greenlands arguments, dont attack the man, when you've presided as a judge in 30 years in 3rd world countries and tried to advance the cause of justice and law and order to better society, both in profession and by publication, then you can attack his integrity.
I've read articles saying she was the 3rd black female judge, this one says 2nd, others I've read have said she was the 1st female black Judge, lots of misreporting going on !
Why though?? Why would anyone need all those weapons?
The list is horrifying to me.
Was he going to war?
manly int it !
I've really no idea - think it's just the 'thing' you do in SA if you're in your 20s , got a bit of cash and like firing guns down the range......... bit like guys who like fast cars, and collect them, but then...... I think OP did both.
He's quite immature for his age , he is nearly 28 now isn't he ? - he wasn't ready to settle down,he liked his bachelor lifestyle too much, but at 29 think Reeva was - it was such a mismatch, she was a much nicer person. ^_^
You have got to hand it to Roux. Although he didn't appear to have much to work with - make that nothing - even his expert witnesses were witnesses for the state.
I didn't care for his obsequious, cringing manner but he knew how to play Masipa just perfectly.
Comments
I never at any time ever came close to suggesting any one was less intelligent.
Thats the thing about mob mentality it clouds your better judgement.
I don't really understand what you are taking offence at. A poster was asking about cases involving shooting someone through a door- I gave the only example that sprang to mind.
I don't think that case is comparable because objectively there were 6 actual intruders and dogs barking.
It is believable that he thought one of them was trying to enter his bedroom.
OP'a case involved only what was subjectively going on in his mind.
With zero objective evidence of intruders.
Why are these cases compared though curley?
One reason - to show somehow that it's possible that OP should only have CH, because he 'made a mistake'.
And the comparisons never work, and equate some obviously terrible accidents to something that isn't obviously an accident at all.
So it's not that there have been any cases of PPD (attempted defense of PPD) involving shooting through a closed door?
Yes, I knew there were a number involving shooting through partially open doors.
I'm saying Pierre de Vos said it hasn't been a successful defense in SA up to now of course.
If you have a SA case we could look at it.
You have quoted a few cases in comparison to OP's.
Have you got any links as I'm not familiar with them?
Considering too the kind of crimes Greenland must have come across in his time and had the misfortune to hear their terrible crimes in great detail - you can appreciate as he has always worked on the side of the good, law abiding person and punishing guilty criminals , that's why he's very vocal about getting Justice for the deceased in this case - he based his opinion on the evidence he's heard in Court
- he's convicted Defendant's for far less evidence against them than Prosecution had against OP. And as you say, he's NOT on Trial..
My response was rhetorical. I wasn't expecting any explanation ;-)
That's what I was asking for examples of such cases for
Okay, but I think it's natural to look for existing points of comparison - some posters have made the comparison the Jub Jub case to explore the reasoning behind the verdict, others have compared home invasion cases, others still have compared to Masipa's previous cases, or to other cases involving sports 'stars'. None of them are identical but all have some point of comparison.
BIB Not always sandy..
Chris Greenland is a highly controversial figure who as a an assessor and magistrate used some outdated legislation promulgated by Ian Smiths government to acquit one of Mugabe's Cabinet Ministers.In doing so he and his fellow assessor(also a magistrate)over-ruled a highly experienced judge.The fact that this Cabinet Minister was as guilty as hell did not bother Chris Greenland
I don't have time to look back at my original post on the subject but I thought I would have indicated whether they were successful or not as that was his point. Obviously they have been tried. I said de Vos was a legal expert iirc.
I get the impression that if Greenland was in Masipa's chair on Op's trial then he would have somehow managed to get him shipped over to the USA to be put to death.
you've got to remember Greenland's in his 70's i'd have thought? - imagine what crime was like in Zimbabwe while he was growing up - and when he became a Judge.......he knows all the tricks in the book Defence Lawyer's use , their 'stories', their use of legal technicalities to try get a 'guilty' guy off Murder - he's got such experience and insight, and he saw right through what Roux was trying to do, he sought to confuse the court by introducing first and second sounds and misquote the timelines from the witnesses
and lucky for him, as Greenland said he was successful........as Masipa didn't scrutinise Roux's timeline - He said he'd have found OP guilty of Murder had he been the Judge, as would majority of Criminal Lawyers who've commented on this Case. It's not over yet though, this Case is full of surprises.
I can't find it now.
I could not believe all he had on order.
What in the world would a ordinary member of the public even in SA want with all those guns and ammo?
I posted on de Voss before that. I'd have to look back at what I said.
Oh Lord yes I imagine he's seen some awful stuff.
How old is Masipa do we know?
There's some people who have integrity, and one's continued attempts to slander them just paints you as desperate.
Really, take it from me, pick apart greenlands arguments, dont attack the man, when you've presided as a judge in 30 years in 3rd world countries and tried to advance the cause of justice and law and order to better society, both in profession and by publication, then you can attack his integrity.
it was an arsenal of weapons - he cancelled it in March nearly month after he'd killed Reewa - i posted the order form on here, but someone else may have it too - no idea where that is now:p
articles relating to the guns OP had on order:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/10702774/Oscar-Pistorius-spent-2700-on-guns-before-Steenkamp-shooting.html
Oscar Pistorius, the paralympic athlete accused of murdering his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp, paid R48,500 (£2,700) for seven firearms including two pump-action shotguns and a semi-automatic rifle in an order that was cancelled after the model died.
http://www.channel4.com/news/oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-guns-love-video
Sean Rens, manager of the International Firearm Training Academy, told court that Pistorius had placed an order for a number of firearms worth £2,700 but cancelled it after shooting Reeva Steenkamp.
He added that the Paralympic star had "indicated a great love of and enthusiasm" for guns. Mr Rens said he was introduced to Pistorius through a mutual friend, Justin Divaris, and that he had trained with him at a gun range in 2012 and later sold him weapons.
Thank you sandy.
Why though?? Why would anyone need all those weapons?
The list is horrifying to me.
Was he going to war?
she must be in her 60's - surely ?
ahh 66 ,,,,here's an article on her
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/who-thokozile-masipa-oscar-pistorius-4202072
I've read articles saying she was the 3rd black female judge, this one says 2nd, others I've read have said she was the 1st female black Judge, lots of misreporting going on !
I've really no idea - think it's just the 'thing' you do in SA if you're in your 20s , got a bit of cash and like firing guns down the range......... bit like guys who like fast cars, and collect them, but then...... I think OP did both.
He's quite immature for his age , he is nearly 28 now isn't he ? - he wasn't ready to settle down,he liked his bachelor lifestyle too much, but at 29 think Reeva was - it was such a mismatch, she was a much nicer person. ^_^
I didn't care for his obsequious, cringing manner but he knew how to play Masipa just perfectly.
I did not see that till now!