I didn't see any obvious rude jokes about WW1, what's the problem? And the Danny and Brigadier thing was not 'no grasp of emotion' at all, I was nearly crying, seriously! The part after the credits really ruined it though.
In particular it's often been the case that the master somehow escapes without it being explained properly. Surely any long standing fan of the show would know this. And to me clearly since the beam was a different colour clearly she was not disintegrated but teleported therefore she wouldn't have regenerated.
So wouldn't that mean that that Cyberman wasn't The Brigadier then?
If not, who saved Kate Lethbridge Stewart?
How? UNIT would only know if someone on board the Valiant told them. Which I can't see happening.
The general public didn't know as seen in The End Of Time.
Basically it was a way of trying to link the two Masters without any other explanation provided. To hell with continuity.
As I've said on other threads, lets just enjoy the good bits and forgive one or two holes here or there. If we try and overthink everything all the fun goes. Oh look over there, its Santa Claus
I didn't see any obvious rude jokes about WW1, what's the problem? And the Danny and Brigadier thing was not 'no grasp of emotion' at all, I was nearly crying seriously! The part after the credits really ruined it though!
I felt it was a cheap, gimmicky way to generate some easy emotional response, as all else was obviously failing.
I suppose that sort of thing appeals to some. Fair enough.
Well I seem to be in the minority, but I loved that.
People wanted Moffat to actually kill characters, well you got your wish cause this was very removed from 'Everybody Lives'. (Poor Osgood )
Ref Osgood knowing about The Master on the Valiant, IIRC the year that never was kicked in after President Winters was assassinated and The Master revealed himself and was then resetted back to that point, hence Unit knowing about him. Only those on the Valiant remembered the missing year.
The Master clearly teleported, Moffat basically says as much on Doctor Who Extra.
Also was it ever confirmed that Orson was a descendant of Clara, didn't they go to the children's home because Clara was thinking of Danny when she was plugged into the Tardis telepathic circuits? He could have had siblings??
The Brig as a Cyberman, I'll take it as it saved Kate. Yes it was a little cheesy but it honoured the Brig nicely for me.
The episode had some great moments, and some more potentially great moments. But the whole thing was poorly structured and they never really ended up fitting together properly. It was enjoyable, but not satisfying (if that makes sense.)
I'm still puzzled that the 3W turned out to in Clara's own time, rather than ten or twelve years in her future. Seriously, scientists announced that they found real, definitive, scientific proof of life after death, and then a big commercial company is set up to take advantage of this. But Clara hasn't heard anything about it at all! Has she been hiding under a rock or something? That just didn't make sense to me.
Oh, and if Danny's emotions can be switched off by the limiter thing in his chest, why was he supposed to delete them in the Nethersphere?
I felt it was a cheap, gimmicky way to generate some easy emotional response, as all else was obviously failing.
I suppose that sort of thing appeals to some. Fair enough.
Yep the writing was rather crap in places! I thought you were going to start the "This could maybe be mildly insensitive, let's ban it immediately" that I'm seeing from other people!
Why not? If you accept the premise that all the dead became cyber men then why wouldn't the Brigadier? If he remained in his coffin, people would be saying why didn't he become a cyberman.
I didn't have a problem with that. Did think it was kind of gross how we were left wondering if in fact he SAVED Missy and that his partially decomposed corpse is now apparently flying around in a cybersuit. Not sure he'd be very happy!
But the Nethersphere itself, where the boy was shown to Danny was a computer-generated simulation running on a Galifreyan hard drive, which ultimately downloaded its "recordings" into re-animated corpses within Cybermen. They were all actually dead. Where did a real healthy small boy come from?
I didn't think of that but it's a very good question. There was some throw away line from Clara about 'the Doctor explained to me that the bracelet could teleport' but how's that supposed to help Danny if his physical body is blown to bits? And how did it help the boy who is presumably little more than a pile of bones somewhere? Again, it was all a bit 'handwave'.
And if Danny can still keep his emotions after his emotions have been switched off, doesn't that kind of undermine the strength of love people had for loved ones in previous Cyberman stories? It's like saying that they couldn't have loved their families enough if they were converted.
Stop trying to apply logic to it!
No, seriously, he didn't think this one through, did he? I get the idea that they needed the consciousness of the dead because they couldn't convert the bodies without them (a bit flimsy magic science but I'll let it pass). However, why didn't they forcibly delete their emotions? Why let people choose if them having emotions is such a potential issue? The Cybermen never gave people a choice before - they just stripped the emotions out. Why is it different for their uploaded conscious?
And if Danny can still keep his emotions after his emotions have been switched off, doesn't that kind of undermine the strength of love people had for loved ones in previous Cyberman stories? It's like saying that they couldn't have loved their families enough if they were converted.
I couldn't tell if Danny's emotions had been switched off or not. Even as metal he was wooden.
Still, I thought Missy was terrific and Capaldi is too.
Don't really care if Clara's tenure is over. I tried to like her but she's like that person...when you're a teenager and your best mate gets a girlfriend and she's all bossy and keeps telling him what to do and it ruins your relationship with your best mate...that's Clara.
And as for plot holes and stuff not making sense...it's Doctor Who. I don't think it's ever made sense. This week's holes were bearable, though, and if explanations weren't given then we could at least invent some plausible ones ourselves. At least it wasn't a f***ing dragon egg moon.
So bye to Pinky and Perky. Really sad Osgood copped it, though. I thought she'd make a terrific next companion for the Doc. Someone who knows a bit of science-y stuff and could have had some good banter and probably not the type to get bogged down in bloody romantic subplots, which companions just don't need. It's Doctor Who not Hollyoaks.
I AM in my right mind and I thought this was a very enjoyable and satisfying episode, however as you seem to have the ability to know what others think about things I stand corrected corrected and must say this episode was terrible.
I think you missing the point
We're apparently not allowed to have enjoyed the episode and unless we have a full and frank explanation for every minor plot point we're just Moffatt fanboys
-How to Danny and Clara have kids now -Why did Missy pick Clara
-Why can Cyber men now fly
-If (as fan theory is having it) Missy was teleported and not disintegrated, why did the Brig save her
-Can you take Santa Vs Aliens seriously (even given the tradition of slightly silly Xmas specials)
And one more point
"al those people suffering in Dalek camps, you can save them now"
Cybermen get trashed by Daleks... would not work even if the Doc was so inclined to try"
yet you reply
Is that the best you can do this week?
That made me think if I was writing it, I'd say that as Missy is a Timelord who presumably has a Tardis, then she could have simply picked an intended candidate for cyber-conversion at random (in this case Danny), found out who they were attached to (Clara), then go back in time to manipulate them to pair up with The Doctor.
Or is this what actually happened? If it did then the script could have made it a bit clearer because I must have missed it.
By the way, I have no problem whatsoever with the Cybermen flying. Because it's their job to upgrade. I don't see why they wouldn't if they could.
I like Clara well enough and really rate Jenna (top billing/eyes in credits) Coleman but love "Pinky and Perky" , Eraserhead!
Initial reaction was that there was a lot to like, but the episode didn't quite live up to the excellent 'Dark Water'. However, expectations are always raised with finales these days so will rewatch in the cold light of day and put in my tupenny's worth tomorrow. Might even have a poll by then. ;-)
But the Nethersphere itself, where the boy was shown to Danny was a computer-generated simulation running on a Galifreyan hard drive, which ultimately downloaded its "recordings" into re-animated corpses within Cybermen. They were all actually dead. Where did a real healthy small boy come from?
Excellent point. I did actually wonder that myself at the end but not really sure if I missed something.
I feel somewhat mixed about that episode. For the most part I really enjoyed it, but the use of love as a resolution (again) grates on me.
Although I feel I may enjoy it more on rewatch.
I have been avoiding this forum like anything after all the spoilers in the thread titles last week that stated Missy was The Master. That seriously p****d me of(and ruined the surprise incidentally) so decided to stay away until after tonight's episode had aired.
Anyway, have to say though it wasn't the best episode in the world that it was for me the best episode(and finale) since the end of Series 4(though not quite as good) and indeed the best episode of the series for me, just pipping the Mummy episode.
Okay, it had it's fault's. The whole Jenna leaving scene was a bit low key as was Danny's, and considering most of the series was based around the two characters, I found the whole plot resolution for them both unsatisfying. It would also have been nice to learn how The Master had suddenly become female.
However, on the plus side, it was nice to see the Cybermen having a decent adventure of sorts after the underuse and misuse of them in previous Series. I also liked all the references to The Brigadier and the scene with the salute was awesome and well thought out.
I also liked how the episode addressed the relationship between The Doctor and The Master which reminded me of the scene in Colony In Space where The Master tried to tempt The Doctor into being corrupt and evil. There were also lots of other little references from Classic Who which struck a chord as well.
The pacing was good for once, I thought Capaldi was excellent and liked the Mummy episode he seemed less grumpy and more Doctorish than normal. I think he has really excelled in the role this series and brought something completely different to it as well.
As I've said in previous posts this Series has been a big improvement on the last three and for the first time in ages, especially after watching tonight's episode, I felt I was getting my Doctor Who back as and where it should be.
I thoroughly enjoyed tonight's episode despite a few shortfalls.
Do so many people watch with the sole intention of finding fault and wanting to criticise everything? I loved this finale, with it's many wow moments. My only issue being; was Danny's body really on a slab so long after he was knocked down and killed. Is that how it works in a Chapel of Rest?
Comments
Worth watching this wretched episode just to enjoy that joke. Post of the thread.
Never watch after the credits. I always turn over or off...well off as there's nothing else worth watching on a Saturday.
Seconded
Credit where credit due
So wouldn't that mean that that Cyberman wasn't The Brigadier then?
If not, who saved Kate Lethbridge Stewart?
As I've said on other threads, lets just enjoy the good bits and forgive one or two holes here or there. If we try and overthink everything all the fun goes. Oh look over there, its Santa Claus
I felt it was a cheap, gimmicky way to generate some easy emotional response, as all else was obviously failing.
I suppose that sort of thing appeals to some. Fair enough.
The one who died might have been the Zygon Kate
People wanted Moffat to actually kill characters, well you got your wish cause this was very removed from 'Everybody Lives'. (Poor Osgood
Ref Osgood knowing about The Master on the Valiant, IIRC the year that never was kicked in after President Winters was assassinated and The Master revealed himself and was then resetted back to that point, hence Unit knowing about him. Only those on the Valiant remembered the missing year.
The Master clearly teleported, Moffat basically says as much on Doctor Who Extra.
Also was it ever confirmed that Orson was a descendant of Clara, didn't they go to the children's home because Clara was thinking of Danny when she was plugged into the Tardis telepathic circuits? He could have had siblings??
The Brig as a Cyberman, I'll take it as it saved Kate. Yes it was a little cheesy but it honoured the Brig nicely for me.
The episode had some great moments, and some more potentially great moments. But the whole thing was poorly structured and they never really ended up fitting together properly. It was enjoyable, but not satisfying (if that makes sense.)
I'm still puzzled that the 3W turned out to in Clara's own time, rather than ten or twelve years in her future. Seriously, scientists announced that they found real, definitive, scientific proof of life after death, and then a big commercial company is set up to take advantage of this. But Clara hasn't heard anything about it at all! Has she been hiding under a rock or something? That just didn't make sense to me.
Oh, and if Danny's emotions can be switched off by the limiter thing in his chest, why was he supposed to delete them in the Nethersphere?
Harsh man, that cuts deep
Santa is clearly a timelord too ;-)
Kinda looking forward to this, even if it has a whiff of cheese about it
I didn't have a problem with that. Did think it was kind of gross how we were left wondering if in fact he SAVED Missy and that his partially decomposed corpse is now apparently flying around in a cybersuit. Not sure he'd be very happy!
I didn't think of that but it's a very good question. There was some throw away line from Clara about 'the Doctor explained to me that the bracelet could teleport' but how's that supposed to help Danny if his physical body is blown to bits? And how did it help the boy who is presumably little more than a pile of bones somewhere? Again, it was all a bit 'handwave'.
Stop trying to apply logic to it!
No, seriously, he didn't think this one through, did he? I get the idea that they needed the consciousness of the dead because they couldn't convert the bodies without them (a bit flimsy magic science but I'll let it pass). However, why didn't they forcibly delete their emotions? Why let people choose if them having emotions is such a potential issue? The Cybermen never gave people a choice before - they just stripped the emotions out. Why is it different for their uploaded conscious?
I couldn't tell if Danny's emotions had been switched off or not. Even as metal he was wooden.
Still, I thought Missy was terrific and Capaldi is too.
Don't really care if Clara's tenure is over. I tried to like her but she's like that person...when you're a teenager and your best mate gets a girlfriend and she's all bossy and keeps telling him what to do and it ruins your relationship with your best mate...that's Clara.
And as for plot holes and stuff not making sense...it's Doctor Who. I don't think it's ever made sense. This week's holes were bearable, though, and if explanations weren't given then we could at least invent some plausible ones ourselves. At least it wasn't a f***ing dragon egg moon.
So bye to Pinky and Perky. Really sad Osgood copped it, though. I thought she'd make a terrific next companion for the Doc. Someone who knows a bit of science-y stuff and could have had some good banter and probably not the type to get bogged down in bloody romantic subplots, which companions just don't need. It's Doctor Who not Hollyoaks.
I think you missing the point
We're apparently not allowed to have enjoyed the episode and unless we have a full and frank explanation for every minor plot point we're just Moffatt fanboys
That made me think if I was writing it, I'd say that as Missy is a Timelord who presumably has a Tardis, then she could have simply picked an intended candidate for cyber-conversion at random (in this case Danny), found out who they were attached to (Clara), then go back in time to manipulate them to pair up with The Doctor.
Or is this what actually happened? If it did then the script could have made it a bit clearer because I must have missed it.
By the way, I have no problem whatsoever with the Cybermen flying. Because it's their job to upgrade. I don't see why they wouldn't if they could.
I'm sorry CD, people are too busy on here sticking forks in their eyes to attempt to enjoy the show or it's off-shoots.
I'm off to watch Match of the Day
Initial reaction was that there was a lot to like, but the episode didn't quite live up to the excellent 'Dark Water'. However, expectations are always raised with finales these days so will rewatch in the cold light of day and put in my tupenny's worth tomorrow. Might even have a poll by then. ;-)
Excellent point. I did actually wonder that myself at the end but not really sure if I missed something.
Although I feel I may enjoy it more on rewatch.
Anyway, have to say though it wasn't the best episode in the world that it was for me the best episode(and finale) since the end of Series 4(though not quite as good) and indeed the best episode of the series for me, just pipping the Mummy episode.
Okay, it had it's fault's. The whole Jenna leaving scene was a bit low key as was Danny's, and considering most of the series was based around the two characters, I found the whole plot resolution for them both unsatisfying. It would also have been nice to learn how The Master had suddenly become female.
However, on the plus side, it was nice to see the Cybermen having a decent adventure of sorts after the underuse and misuse of them in previous Series. I also liked all the references to The Brigadier and the scene with the salute was awesome and well thought out.
I also liked how the episode addressed the relationship between The Doctor and The Master which reminded me of the scene in Colony In Space where The Master tried to tempt The Doctor into being corrupt and evil. There were also lots of other little references from Classic Who which struck a chord as well.
The pacing was good for once, I thought Capaldi was excellent and liked the Mummy episode he seemed less grumpy and more Doctorish than normal. I think he has really excelled in the role this series and brought something completely different to it as well.
As I've said in previous posts this Series has been a big improvement on the last three and for the first time in ages, especially after watching tonight's episode, I felt I was getting my Doctor Who back as and where it should be.
I thoroughly enjoyed tonight's episode despite a few shortfalls.
Long may it continue in that vein.