His parents tried to get him to socialise from a very early age, largely by arranging "playdates" with other kids right up into his teens. It seems they were very aware of his difficulty in socialising with others the whole time.
As for people on the internet now coming out and describing him as "hot"...well that's what we've been saying all along - he was a good-looking kid from a decent background who made an effort to dress well and drove a BMW. Doesn't mean a thing, though, if he was resolutely unable to talk to anyone, girls especially, and as he grew older he obviously became more withdrawn and, in his own words, creepy.
I think the older a person gets, the more possibility there is to become withdrawn. As a child or adolescent, you have to go to school by law so you are forced to be mixing with people at least some of the time, and then the same applies with college and University. However, in adult life, people have to fend for themselves and as people move on, become busy, find partners and start families etc., then those that can't do that become more and more excluded from society. Kids can be bullies to those that are different, but in the adult world, people are unsympathetic to those who can't integrate as well.
Apparently he didn't have a diagnosis, but his parents suspected he was on the spectrum.
Can we now perhaps focus on the fact he appeared to be a misogynistic narcissist instead?
It's astonishing that police were requested to check on his mental health, as they have no mental health training at all. No psychiatrist would take politeness as an indication that someone was mentally fit. It's equally astonishing that the police failed to check the videos.
He needed urgent psychiatric evaluation, in the UK he could have been sectioned. I don't know how the US works in that regard.
It works that the police are unfortunately very limited in what they can do when they show up.
It's the same for any minority group: I don't understand it, therefore I fear it.
Some other minority groups interests are protected and championed, though. The media often publicise campaigns for the rights of blacks or gays etc. (nothing wrong with that, of course), but I personally feel that the reporting of incidents involving people with Aspergers have a tone that is one of mocking and ridicule. It is extremely judgmental.
What do we expect from a society that sees something wrong in being a virgin until one is in their mid 20s. It's more common than people maybe care to think. But there's so much pressure these days to 'lose it' from a terrifyingly young age that some kids feel compelled to do so, not out of sexual frustration, but just to save face. I am not blaming the media here, but western society as a whole.
When you are ready, you are ready... If you are not you are not. He was certainly rich enough to hire a prostitute for the night. But considering what he has done now, thank goodness he didn't. Clearly a very loose canon.
American high school culture is a very strange one indeed. Have friends who went to school over there in the 'suburbs'. Apparently, the portrayal of school life in 'Mean Girls' isn't too far from the truth. The whole jocks and cheerleader culture thing. Luckily, well in my case at least, we didn't have that in my school. Anyways i'm going off on a tangent here. Needless to say, I can see how that type of culture can lead to someone, who was 'excluded' from certain social groups, going on a killing revenge rampage thing... That and the whole access to guns. Bit of a toxic mix if you ask me.
I read that too, but all the photographs that accompanied the reporting show the flat as the bog-standard halls of residence described by him in his "manifesto".
Its not really likely to have a big sign above it with 'special needs' written on it. Many of those flats are integrated into mainstream accommodation but managed by a different scheme.
The manifesto/log whatever is a strange read, almost unreal and very detached and of course centers solely on his own feelings and paranoia - however, his father did release this statement via his lawyer
Shifman added: 'My clients’ mission in life will be to try and prevent any such tragedies from ever happening again.
'This country, this world needs to address mental illness and the ramifications from not recognizing these illnesses.
Now a mission in life, after you did not go and check on your own son seems rather pointless - could he not have put some effort into making sure THIS tragedy did not happen?
Pontificating about what 'this country, this world needs to do' is a bit rich when it has happened in his own household
That's just PR. His Dad had to say something, some kind of apology or apeasement to those who have suffered, and sorry does sound rather trite. Who knows if he even said it or if it was something the lawyers came up with.
My initial thoughts were of a psychotic (delusional) disorder with narcissistic and paranoid personality traits. He could well have developed schizophrenia at a young age, though there is no evidence of this. It'll be helpful to hear from the clinicians who treated him, especially the psychiatrist who prescribed Risperidone.
Yes that is possible. I just remarked that early 20's is a common time to see schizophrenia emerge. The stress of college life is too much. As he was so secretive he might not have told people, even his parents.
What do we expect from a society that sees something wrong in being a virgin until one is in their mid 20s. It's more common than people maybe care to think. But there's so much pressure these days to 'lose it' from a terrifyingly young age that some kids feel compelled to do so, not out of sexual frustration, but just to save face. I am not blaming the media here, but western society as a whole.
When you are ready, you are ready... If you are not you are not. He was certainly rich enough to hire a prostitute for the night. But considering what he has done now, thank goodness he didn't. Clearly a very loose canon.
American high school culture is a very strange one indeed. Have friends who went to school over there in the 'suburbs'. Apparently, the portrayal of school life in 'Mean Girls' isn't too far from the truth. The whole jocks and cheerleader culture thing. Luckily, well in my case at least, we didn't have that in my school. Anyways i'm going off on a tangent here. Needless to say, I can see how that type of culture can lead to someone, who was 'excluded' from certain social groups, going on a killing revenge rampage thing... That and the whole access to guns. Bit of a toxic mix if you ask me.
Correct me if I'm wrong, here, but is it the case that because of the culture of the American school system, people are in general much more likely to become completely isolated than in the United Kingdom?
I think the older a person gets, the more possibility there is to become withdrawn. As a child or adolescent, you have to go to school by law so you are forced to be mixing with people at least some of the time, and then the same applies with college and University. However, in adult life, people have to fend for themselves and as people move on, become busy, find partners and start families etc., then those that can't do that become more and more excluded from society. Kids can be bullies to those that are different, but in the adult world, people are unsympathetic to those who can't integrate as well.
And that's very evident in his diary. He describes a relatively happy early childhood but things get increasingly bleak as he hits puberty and beyond. This is the point at which the child is expected to start engaging in more "adult" social interactions and is a noticeable point at which those who struggle socially really start to stand out.
Sadly Elliot reacted by initially withdrawing and later lashing out at others, which only alienated him further. This eventually became a psychotic delusion in which he saw every "normal" social interaction by others as a personal slight on himself.
Apparently he didn't have a diagnosis, but his parents suspected he was on the spectrum.
Can we now perhaps focus on the fact he appeared to be a misogynistic narcissist instead?
Not being given a formal diagnosis before the incident doesn't mean he didn't have a psychiatric disorder. Forensic psychiatrists are typically tasked with making retrospective diagnoses i.e. some time after the index offence.
I think the misogyny is a red herring as he seemed to dislike almost everyone, but he certainly had narcissistic traits.
Its not really likely to have a big sign above it with 'special needs' written on it. Many of those flats are integrated into mainstream accommodation but managed by a different scheme.
Sure, but there was just that one mention of it being a disability project and until I see more evidence, I will assume it was just a regular student room.
It works that the police are unfortunately very limited in what they can do when they show up.
Unless they have a warrant.
Can people not be sectioned in the US?
If someone is detained under the mental health act here, as you no doubt know more about than I, there's generally a social worker, a couple of doctors and police if necessary. A mental health assessment can be carried out at home.
I'd have thought his 'manifesto' plus videos would be enough to get him sectioned, I've known people to be sectioned for less.
Correct me if I'm wrong, here, but is it the case that because of the culture of the American school system, people are in general much more likely to become completely isolated that in the United Kingdom?
I suppose. Again I don't want to hijack this thread but when i was at school of course you had 'popular' kids... But what school doesn't? But it wasn't as extreme as I have heard from certain American friends. Also helps that most schools here have a dress code and uniform policy, whilst in the States they don't. So poorer kids can easily be picked out due to the lack of designer gear and all that.
But I think things are changing here for the worst. School proms, homecoming dances etc etc are now becoming the norm in schools... With parents spending silly money on dresses and hiring limos for their daughters to go to prom in... It's just silly coming from a European point of view. Back in 2003, all we did to celebrate leaving school was a crappy after school party with everyone sneaking in alcohol in lucozade bottles and getting a bit drunk lol. Wasn't any of this prom crap.
Not being given a formal diagnosis before the incident doesn't mean he didn't have a psychiatric disorder. Forensic psychiatrists are typically tasked with making retrospective diagnoses i.e. some time after the index offence.
I think the misogyny is a red herring as he seemed to dislike almost everyone, but he certainly had narcissistic traits.
Sure, but there was just that one mention of it being a disability project and until I see more evidence, I will assume it was just a regular student room.
I agree being un-diagnosed doesn't signify that he was not seriously mentally unwell.
But I don't think the misogyny is a 'red herring' any more than it would be for other serial killers of women - such as Peter Sutcliffe or Levi Bellfield, it was part of his mindset and the rationale for the killing.
If someone is detained under the mental health act here, as you no doubt know more about than I, there's generally a social worker, a couple of doctors and police if necessary. A mental health assessment can be carried out at home.
I'd have thought his 'manifesto' plus videos would be enough to get him sectioned. I've known people sectioned for less.
He only released the manifesto 15 minutes before the murders. The videos were worrying, but the police didn't bother watching them... then he took them down until just before the murders.
Over the years I have been amazed at how unwell people have become before any intervention is initiated. Not everyone is skilled at differentiating between the sick and the very sick, and this applies across the health service, not just in mental health.
Apparently he didn't have a diagnosis, but his parents suspected he was on the spectrum.
Can we now perhaps focus on the fact he appeared to be a misogynistic narcissist instead?
I'd say there's almost certainly some kind of narcisstic personality disorder there.
Just looking at his Facebook page and there are a LOT of pictures of himself there.
I've not actually read the whole thread, but got to this post (and there were a few other posts which caught onto the idea in this one) and felt I had to reply.
Unless the boy was diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, he probably didn't have it. Even if he did, most people with NPD don't go on killing sprees.
A person diagnosed with NPD will usually also be diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. It's not helpful for those with a narcissistic diagnosis to be lumped in with evil gunmen (as we too often are).
I don't think amount of Facebook pictures are indicative of whether a person has NPD. I am diagnosed with this myself but on Facebook I actually have very few pictures of myself on there, so it's probably not an indication. You can't actually diagnose someone without being a trained psychologist performing an assessment in the proper environment.
I feel like you hit the nail on the head though when you described him as a 'spoilt, rich kid'. I would add 'evil' and 'misogynist' to that description also.
ETA: I've just seen that other posters above have brought up the same issue I have here (about formal NPD diagnosis's). :cool:
I suppose. Again I don't want to hijack this thread but when i was at school of course you had 'popular' kids... But what school doesn't? But it wasn't as extreme as I have heard from certain American friends. Also helps that most schools here have a dress code and uniform policy, whilst in the States they don't. So poorer kids can easily be picked out due to the lack of designer gear and all that.
But I think things are changing here for the worst. School proms, homecoming dances etc etc are now becoming the norm in schools... With parents spending silly money on dresses and hiring limos for their daughters to go to prom in... It's just silly coming from a European point of view. Back in 2003, all we did to celebrate leaving school was a crappy after school party with everyone sneaking in alcohol in lucozade bottles and getting a bit drunk lol. Wasn't any of this prom crap.
These Americanisms seem to be creeping in more and more. I hope it does not get to the point where kids in British schools become more vulnerable to feeling like people such as Elliot Rodger because of this. Maybe there are plenty of kids that feel like that already, but of course in the United Kingdom it can't end as tragically because of the comparative inaccessibility of firearms.
Not being given a formal diagnosis before the incident doesn't mean he didn't have a psychiatric disorder. Forensic psychiatrists are typically tasked with making retrospective diagnoses i.e. some time after the index offence.
I think the misogyny is a red herring as he seemed to dislike almost everyone, but he certainly had narcissistic traits.
Sure, but there was just that one mention of it being a disability project and until I see more evidence, I will assume it was just a regular student room.
No, some of his passages from his mainfesto are clearly misogynistic. Women are evil, should be kept in cages for reproduction only, a disease on the world. The only other people he talks about with such venom are Asians.
He only released the manifesto 15 minutes before the murders. The videos were worrying, but the police didn't bother watching them... then he took them down until just before the murders.
Over the years I have been amazed at how unwell people have become before any intervention is initiated. Not everyone is skilled at differentiating between the sick and the very sick, and this applies across the health service, not just in mental health.
I dont know about america but it is very difficult to get people sectioned for assessment here.
I agree being un-diagnosed doesn't signify that he was not seriously mentally unwell.
But I don't think the misogyny is a 'red herring' any more than it would be for other serial killers of women - such as Peter Sutcliffe or Levi Bellfield, it was part of his mindset and the rationale for the killing.
But he killed 2 women and 4 men...
His thinking was clearly misogynistic, but it was much broader than that, which is what I meant by it being a red herring. For example a man with a persistent delusional disorder thinking that "gays" and government officials are persecuting him. Offering him once a week therapy to address his homophobia will be largely ineffective.
His thinking was clearly misogynistic, but it was much broader than that, which is what I meant by it being a red herring. For example a man with a persistent delusional disorder thinking that "gays" and government officials are persecuting him. Offering him once a week therapy to address his homophobia will be largely ineffective.
Was that not just a fluke of luck though? His intention was to get into a house full of women and kill the lot of them. Fortunately, no one opened the door.
No, some of his passages from his mainfesto are clearly misogynistic. Women are evil, should be kept in cages for reproduction only, a disease on the world. The only other people he talks about with such venom are Asians.
He made concerning remarks about Indians, black people, good looking men.. anyone who wasn't him, basically. He wanted to kill his own brother. Much more than just misogyny.
Was that not just a fluke of luck though? His intention was to get into a house full of women and kill the lot of them. Fortunately, no one opened the door.
Not according to his manifesto. He planned to kill people of either sex, including his male flatmates and brother.
Comments
I think the older a person gets, the more possibility there is to become withdrawn. As a child or adolescent, you have to go to school by law so you are forced to be mixing with people at least some of the time, and then the same applies with college and University. However, in adult life, people have to fend for themselves and as people move on, become busy, find partners and start families etc., then those that can't do that become more and more excluded from society. Kids can be bullies to those that are different, but in the adult world, people are unsympathetic to those who can't integrate as well.
Can we now perhaps focus on the fact he appeared to be a misogynistic narcissist instead?
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-05-26/british-born-us-gunman-not-diagnosed-with-aspergers/
It works that the police are unfortunately very limited in what they can do when they show up.
Unless they have a warrant.
Some other minority groups interests are protected and championed, though. The media often publicise campaigns for the rights of blacks or gays etc. (nothing wrong with that, of course), but I personally feel that the reporting of incidents involving people with Aspergers have a tone that is one of mocking and ridicule. It is extremely judgmental.
It makes me want to do something about it.
When you are ready, you are ready... If you are not you are not. He was certainly rich enough to hire a prostitute for the night. But considering what he has done now, thank goodness he didn't. Clearly a very loose canon.
American high school culture is a very strange one indeed. Have friends who went to school over there in the 'suburbs'. Apparently, the portrayal of school life in 'Mean Girls' isn't too far from the truth. The whole jocks and cheerleader culture thing. Luckily, well in my case at least, we didn't have that in my school. Anyways i'm going off on a tangent here. Needless to say, I can see how that type of culture can lead to someone, who was 'excluded' from certain social groups, going on a killing revenge rampage thing... That and the whole access to guns. Bit of a toxic mix if you ask me.
Its not really likely to have a big sign above it with 'special needs' written on it. Many of those flats are integrated into mainstream accommodation but managed by a different scheme.
Had to laugh at the tweet
Yes that is possible. I just remarked that early 20's is a common time to see schizophrenia emerge. The stress of college life is too much. As he was so secretive he might not have told people, even his parents.
Correct me if I'm wrong, here, but is it the case that because of the culture of the American school system, people are in general much more likely to become completely isolated than in the United Kingdom?
And that's very evident in his diary. He describes a relatively happy early childhood but things get increasingly bleak as he hits puberty and beyond. This is the point at which the child is expected to start engaging in more "adult" social interactions and is a noticeable point at which those who struggle socially really start to stand out.
Sadly Elliot reacted by initially withdrawing and later lashing out at others, which only alienated him further. This eventually became a psychotic delusion in which he saw every "normal" social interaction by others as a personal slight on himself.
Not being given a formal diagnosis before the incident doesn't mean he didn't have a psychiatric disorder. Forensic psychiatrists are typically tasked with making retrospective diagnoses i.e. some time after the index offence.
I think the misogyny is a red herring as he seemed to dislike almost everyone, but he certainly had narcissistic traits.
Sure, but there was just that one mention of it being a disability project and until I see more evidence, I will assume it was just a regular student room.
Can people not be sectioned in the US?
If someone is detained under the mental health act here, as you no doubt know more about than I, there's generally a social worker, a couple of doctors and police if necessary. A mental health assessment can be carried out at home.
I'd have thought his 'manifesto' plus videos would be enough to get him sectioned, I've known people to be sectioned for less.
I suppose. Again I don't want to hijack this thread but when i was at school of course you had 'popular' kids... But what school doesn't? But it wasn't as extreme as I have heard from certain American friends. Also helps that most schools here have a dress code and uniform policy, whilst in the States they don't. So poorer kids can easily be picked out due to the lack of designer gear and all that.
But I think things are changing here for the worst. School proms, homecoming dances etc etc are now becoming the norm in schools... With parents spending silly money on dresses and hiring limos for their daughters to go to prom in... It's just silly coming from a European point of view. Back in 2003, all we did to celebrate leaving school was a crappy after school party with everyone sneaking in alcohol in lucozade bottles and getting a bit drunk lol. Wasn't any of this prom crap.
But his actions were unforgivable.
But I don't think the misogyny is a 'red herring' any more than it would be for other serial killers of women - such as Peter Sutcliffe or Levi Bellfield, it was part of his mindset and the rationale for the killing.
He only released the manifesto 15 minutes before the murders. The videos were worrying, but the police didn't bother watching them... then he took them down until just before the murders.
Over the years I have been amazed at how unwell people have become before any intervention is initiated. Not everyone is skilled at differentiating between the sick and the very sick, and this applies across the health service, not just in mental health.
That doesn't surprise me at all actually.
I've not actually read the whole thread, but got to this post (and there were a few other posts which caught onto the idea in this one) and felt I had to reply.
Unless the boy was diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, he probably didn't have it. Even if he did, most people with NPD don't go on killing sprees.
A person diagnosed with NPD will usually also be diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. It's not helpful for those with a narcissistic diagnosis to be lumped in with evil gunmen (as we too often are).
I don't think amount of Facebook pictures are indicative of whether a person has NPD. I am diagnosed with this myself but on Facebook I actually have very few pictures of myself on there, so it's probably not an indication. You can't actually diagnose someone without being a trained psychologist performing an assessment in the proper environment.
I feel like you hit the nail on the head though when you described him as a 'spoilt, rich kid'. I would add 'evil' and 'misogynist' to that description also.
ETA: I've just seen that other posters above have brought up the same issue I have here (about formal NPD diagnosis's). :cool:
These Americanisms seem to be creeping in more and more. I hope it does not get to the point where kids in British schools become more vulnerable to feeling like people such as Elliot Rodger because of this. Maybe there are plenty of kids that feel like that already, but of course in the United Kingdom it can't end as tragically because of the comparative inaccessibility of firearms.
No, some of his passages from his mainfesto are clearly misogynistic. Women are evil, should be kept in cages for reproduction only, a disease on the world. The only other people he talks about with such venom are Asians.
I dont know about america but it is very difficult to get people sectioned for assessment here.
But he killed 2 women and 4 men...
His thinking was clearly misogynistic, but it was much broader than that, which is what I meant by it being a red herring. For example a man with a persistent delusional disorder thinking that "gays" and government officials are persecuting him. Offering him once a week therapy to address his homophobia will be largely ineffective.
Was that not just a fluke of luck though? His intention was to get into a house full of women and kill the lot of them. Fortunately, no one opened the door.
He made concerning remarks about Indians, black people, good looking men.. anyone who wasn't him, basically. He wanted to kill his own brother. Much more than just misogyny.
Not according to his manifesto. He planned to kill people of either sex, including his male flatmates and brother.