She can have my 3 boys and their friends to look after for a week..the mix of 14/15 year old hormones and teenage angst and a 3 year olds tantrums..may soon change her mind:D
QUOTE]
Speaking as a parent of four teenagers your words made me smile. Perhaps on occasion I might even say, and definately think, the same myself.
However, I had eleven years of unsuccessful infertility treatment (my children are all adopted) and similiar words would have hurt me so much. I can still remember once standing in a fish and chip shop queue when a harrassed mother made a casual remark like that. I was so hypersensitive then and had to leave and go home, it was as if I had been stabbed, the pain was so intense. It may appear an over-reaction but in order to avoid that pain I started to stay indoors.
I am sure you would not say anything like that to the woman herself, and I hope the above doesn't sound harsh because I genuinely don't mean it to be. I am using your words as an example of how something said casually, and even in jest, can hurt someone who doesn't have children. Something, as I say, I may even say myself now.
In a wider context, I always treasured when someone was honest with me. I too was once bitter and angry at everyone. Friends, relatives, neighbours who had children or became pregnant would avoid me. They were trying to be sensitive perhaps and were thinking of my feelings. But instead it meant I became isolated and alone in my grief, even more bitter. I so appreciated it when someone was honest with me, especially when they would acknowledge that their 'happy news' was painful to me.
Another thing to consider is that maybe she did have problems conceiving. I rarely open up to people in real life about my fertility problems, I'm not even sure why to be honest, I think I just find it easier to say I didn't want children rather than open up and admit I desperately wanted them but couldn't fall pregnant. People tend to feel embarrased for asking etc. and I prefer not to do that to them. As a result only those closest to me know the truth and everyone else just assumes I didn't want a family. Bitterness was something I dealt with for a while, I did find it difficult watching family and friends fall pregnant and while I kept my feelings to myself there were times when I was eaten up with jealousy and anger, I'm not proud of it, but I couldn't help how I felt.
Even if that isn't the case, going through the menopause has taken any choice away from her and I can understand why she may be struggling with that.
I can so identify with your words, Michelle, and can understand your reasons for keeping quiet. I too was very bitter, I too was jealous and angry, and like you am not proud of it but it was the only way I knew how to survive.
16 years later, with 4 adopted children, I am entering the menopause and am finding it is bringing up some of those old feelings of loss again. Maybe it is hormones, maybe it is the thought of my children turning into adults, but it's harder than I imagined. I very much feel for the OP's friend.
She can have my 3 boys and their friends to look after for a week..the mix of 14/15 year old hormones and teenage angst and a 3 year olds tantrums..may soon change her mind:D
I'm sure that's only a flippant comment but honestly, remarks like that can be terribly wounding to childfree women. Many women don't confide in others why they have no children, and in many cases, it is not out of choice. Others just assume it is. Just because some people overshare about their attempts to conceive, others like to keep things private. This lady could well have spent her fertile years hoping for a child.
Sympathy is needed for this lady, she is grieving for her never-to-be born children.
I feel sympathy for your friend, and for you as you try to carry on being her friend.
I agree that a lot of what she is feeling might be tied up with menopause, where the flying hormones are hell to deal with.
I think talking about childless women as selfish and childed women as selfless is an extremely odd way of looking at it. Selfless? It's not like there's a vat of children waiting somewhere to be born and some women Selflessly agree to have them.
Some people have no drive to have children - I didn't, I'd have made a crap mother - but I have not lived my life selfishly either. Menopause to me means relief that even my eternally optomistic mother can't realistically expect me finally to meet a nice boy and have babies.
Other people, like OP's friend, always thought she'd find the right time - that sounds like being responsible to me, not selfish - and suddenly bang, the window of opportunity is closed.
I agree that she's mourning, and that she probably needs to work through all the emotional stages associated with grieving.I think all OP can do is listen, until she grinds it out of her system. :hug:
She can have my 3 boys and their friends to look after for a week..the mix of 14/15 year old hormones and teenage angst and a 3 year olds tantrums..may soon change her mind:D
QUOTE]
Speaking as a parent of four teenagers your words made me smile. Perhaps on occasion I might even say, and definately think, the same myself.
However, I had eleven years of unsuccessful infertility treatment (my children are all adopted) and similiar words would have hurt me so much. I can still remember once standing in a fish and chip shop queue when a harrassed mother made a casual remark like that. I was so hypersensitive then and had to leave and go home, it was as if I had been stabbed, the pain was so intense. It may appear an over-reaction but in order to avoid that pain I started to stay indoors.
I am sure you would not say anything like that to the woman herself, and I hope the above doesn't sound harsh because I genuinely don't mean it to be. I am using your words as an example of how something said casually, and even in jest, can hurt someone who doesn't have children. Something, as I say, I may even say myself now.
In a wider context, I always treasured when someone was honest with me. I too was once bitter and angry at everyone. Friends, relatives, neighbours who had children or became pregnant would avoid me. They were trying to be sensitive perhaps and were thinking of my feelings. But instead it meant I became isolated and alone in my grief, even more bitter. I so appreciated it when someone was honest with me, especially when they would acknowledge that their 'happy news' was painful to me.
Believe me to a woman who had tried to have children and couldnt I would never say these words..my heart would go out to them..I too had fertility issues and feel totally blessed to have 3 healthy children..HOWEVER..the OP did initially state this woman had CHOSEN not to have children and that is a big,big difference.
My point is if she has taken the route to enjoy life to the full and not be tied down by the responsibilities of parenthood,then you cant suddenly turn round and take it out on everyone around you..we were almost 5 years trying for our first child and I understand that feeling when all around you friends are getting pregnant or you see people who dont appreciate their children falling pregnant so easy..I honestly do understand that..but this woman chose not to have children and has probably already reaped those benefits that that decision itself brings..nice holidays,cars,putting your feet up when you get in fron work instead of starting another working day on your family..my point is if she made that choice she cannot have it both ways now...my words are for a woman who chose not to have children..not to one who couldnt...those words would be very different and much kinder.
I feel sympathy for your friend, and for you as you try to carry on being her friend.
I agree that a lot of what she is feeling might be tied up with menopause, where the flying hormones are hell to deal with.
I think talking about childless women as selfish and childed women as selfless is an extremely odd way of looking at it. Selfless? It's not like there's a vat of children waiting somewhere to be born and some women Selflessly agree to have them.
Some people have no drive to have children - I didn't, I'd have made a crap mother - but I have not lived my life selfishly either. Menopause to me means relief that even my eternally optomistic mother can't realistically expect me finally to meet a nice boy and have babies.
Other people, like OP's friend, always thought she'd find the right time - that sounds like being responsible to me, not selfish - and suddenly bang, the window of opportunity is closed.
I agree that she's mourning, and that she probably needs to work through all the emotional stages associated with grieving.I think all OP can do is listen, until she grinds it out of her system. :hug:
I totally identify with the above post.
It is silly to use words like selfish and selfless in a so called democratic society. We are all different people who take a variety of paths in life. I'm very happy being an aunty to my sister's four children.
My sister needed to have a large family. That was her desire. She tried to make me feel the same. One time she suggested out of the blue (when we were in the middle of a discussion on what film to see at the cinema), that I should get my eggs frozen until I found a nice man to settle down with. I was only 30 at the time.
Another thing to consider is that maybe she did have problems conceiving. I rarely open up to people in real life about my fertility problems, I'm not even sure why to be honest, I think I just find it easier to say I didn't want children rather than open up and admit I desperately wanted them but couldn't fall pregnant. People tend to feel embarrased for asking etc. and I prefer not to do that to them. As a result only those closest to me know the truth and everyone else just assumes I didn't want a family. Bitterness was something I dealt with for a while, I did find it difficult watching family and friends fall pregnant and while I kept my feelings to myself there were times when I was eaten up with jealousy and anger, I'm not proud of it, but I couldn't help how I felt.
Even if that isn't the case, going through the menopause has taken any choice away from her and I can understand why she may be struggling with that.
Snap. I know none of my real friends would ever refer to me as bitter, or ask others how to deal with me!
Believe me to a woman who had tried to have children and couldnt I would never say these words..my heart would go out to them..I too had fertility issues and feel totally blessed to have 3 healthy children..HOWEVER..the OP did initially state this woman had CHOSEN not to have children and that is a big,big difference.
My point is if she has taken the route to enjoy life to the full and not be tied down by the responsibilities of parenthood,then you cant suddenly turn round and take it out on everyone around you..we were almost 5 years trying for our first child and I understand that feeling when all around you friends are getting pregnant or you see people who dont appreciate their children falling pregnant so easy..I honestly do understand that..but this woman chose not to have children and has probably already reaped those benefits that that decision itself brings..nice holidays,cars,putting your feet up when you get in fron work instead of starting another working day on your family..my point is if she made that choice she cannot have it both ways now...my words are for a woman who chose not to have children..not to one who couldnt...those words would be very different and much kinder.
I just think you are being under sympathetic here and basing others on yourself.
Nobody but the woman herself would know if she was trying to have a baby before the menopause, it's not the sort of thing everyone is open about. Just because the OP thinks she didn't want them before doesn't make it certain.
Often in life you are too busy for children, need the money for mortgages and trying to succeed in your career. More and more women these days are leaving it later due to cost of living. No longer is one salary sufficient in most cases. The trouble with this leaving it later, you don't know when the menopause will hit. The age of the woman concerned isn't in the OP, but menopause can come at any age, you don't have to be in your 50s.
I was one who was never ready for a child, I had a deep rooted fear of ending up a lone parent for some reason so I had to be 100% sure of my partner, which actually is impossible to be I think. I also had fear of not being able to afford children, so you keep putting things off and off. In the end my body decided for me and at 39 I found myself pregnant totally unplanned. I also hit my menopause just after giving birth.
I am now a lone parent with a lone child knowing I will never have another. Another year later and I would never have had one at all.
The woman in the OP has to deal with the fact she left it too late on top of dealing with menopause symptoms. This will be compounded with the fact of realising she is getting older and could be alone in her old age. No, you don't have to take it out on people around you, but hormones are funny things, look at teenagers and pregnant women. It's sad for the woman as she obviously isn't happy, can only hope that when her hormones settle down she will come to terms with it.
Do you go for the selfish life, doing exactly what you want, having a high flying career, lovely holidays etc?
Or do you go the self-sacrficiing route looking after your family, putting aside some career ambitions, losing spontenaity?
There are pros and cons with both. Whatever path you choose you can find it to be a mistake.
Sometimes ambitions can seem everything when you are young and when you get to a certain age (and you've been made redundant) your realise how empty those career dreams were.
I feel sorry for this woman but if she has reached the menopause then realistically she is old enough to be a granny or for her kids to have left home. You can't keep them forever.
How many stereotypes can you fit in one post? The same applies to the poster with the 'oh SHE'S not hard done by', as if it's a competition, as if she's less worthy of consideration because she chose against having children).
Choosing not to have chidren is more more selfish than having them is. Ultimately all life choices are selfish, people have children because they WANT them, people are childfree because they WANT to be. Having children doesn't necessarily mean self-sacrifice, or sacrifice of luxury anymore than being childfree means you're high flying and have no responsibilities. However empty or meaningful, short or long term, something is, is a very individual judgement.
You're right though, there is no one path to happiness, there are the bitter childless and the bitter parents (just look how many children are abused and killed weekly by their parents), conversely there are happy ones.
Menopause...menopause. Do you think that's possibly the key? Not only is it a massive life change, it brings hormonal warfare and she's likely to be up and down like a hooker's knickers, emotionally. The current feelings in regards to children may last, or she may look back on them and laugh at herself. Who knows?
There are those whom regret not having children, and those whom regret having them. If she does regret - well, regret is inevitable for all of us at some point or other. There is always the possibility of regret, it's a part of life, but we can't go through life doing things we don't want to do 'just in case', especially if said things involve others whose lives we could f**k up alongside our own.
Has she been to see a doctor about HRT or similar medications to help her through the menopause?
It is silly to use words like selfish and selfless in a so called democratic society. We are all different people who take a variety of paths in life. I'm very happy being an aunty to my sister's four children.
My sister needed to have a large family. That was her desire. She tried to make me feel the same. One time she suggested out of the blue (when we were in the middle of a discussion on what film to see at the cinema), that I should get my eggs frozen until I found a nice man to settle down with. I was only 30 at the time.
Me three.
I'm childfree, and i'm no more or less selfish or selfless than anyone else, and nor do i lack responsibility. Silly terms to throw around, as if we are clichés.
I have noticed how some people, blinded totally by their own perspective, cannot understand how others can feel differently, and then there are those who seemingly feel their own life choices cannot be validated unless everyone else chooses to walk the same path.
Menopause is a bitch. I haven't experienced it myself, but my childfree aunt (relevant to this discussion) suffered terribly during the process. Although her decision not to have children (made when she was a child, as mine was) she did not second guess or regret, other aspects of her life she questioned, often veering between contentment and regret in the space of a day. It is natural to be up-and-down, so i would advise the OP to give her friend a break, be there for her, and perhaps encourage her to see a doctor.
A part of postmenopausal women experience those symptoms that may create a great physical and psychological discomfort.
Psychological symptoms Irritability, depression, anxiety, are manifestations that frequently onset in the menopausal period. Steroids are surely involved in the trophism, modulation and function of CNS improving memory capacity and concentration. The decrease in estrogen blood level determines alteration of the neuroendocrin systems that regulate the brain function (mood and behavior).
Comments
I can so identify with your words, Michelle, and can understand your reasons for keeping quiet. I too was very bitter, I too was jealous and angry, and like you am not proud of it but it was the only way I knew how to survive.
16 years later, with 4 adopted children, I am entering the menopause and am finding it is bringing up some of those old feelings of loss again. Maybe it is hormones, maybe it is the thought of my children turning into adults, but it's harder than I imagined. I very much feel for the OP's friend.
I'm sure that's only a flippant comment but honestly, remarks like that can be terribly wounding to childfree women. Many women don't confide in others why they have no children, and in many cases, it is not out of choice. Others just assume it is. Just because some people overshare about their attempts to conceive, others like to keep things private. This lady could well have spent her fertile years hoping for a child.
Sympathy is needed for this lady, she is grieving for her never-to-be born children.
I agree that a lot of what she is feeling might be tied up with menopause, where the flying hormones are hell to deal with.
I think talking about childless women as selfish and childed women as selfless is an extremely odd way of looking at it. Selfless? It's not like there's a vat of children waiting somewhere to be born and some women Selflessly agree to have them.
Some people have no drive to have children - I didn't, I'd have made a crap mother - but I have not lived my life selfishly either. Menopause to me means relief that even my eternally optomistic mother can't realistically expect me finally to meet a nice boy and have babies.
Other people, like OP's friend, always thought she'd find the right time - that sounds like being responsible to me, not selfish - and suddenly bang, the window of opportunity is closed.
I agree that she's mourning, and that she probably needs to work through all the emotional stages associated with grieving.I think all OP can do is listen, until she grinds it out of her system. :hug:
I totally identify with the above post.
It is silly to use words like selfish and selfless in a so called democratic society. We are all different people who take a variety of paths in life. I'm very happy being an aunty to my sister's four children.
My sister needed to have a large family. That was her desire. She tried to make me feel the same. One time she suggested out of the blue (when we were in the middle of a discussion on what film to see at the cinema), that I should get my eggs frozen until I found a nice man to settle down with. I was only 30 at the time.
Snap. I know none of my real friends would ever refer to me as bitter, or ask others how to deal with me!
I just think you are being under sympathetic here and basing others on yourself.
Nobody but the woman herself would know if she was trying to have a baby before the menopause, it's not the sort of thing everyone is open about. Just because the OP thinks she didn't want them before doesn't make it certain.
Often in life you are too busy for children, need the money for mortgages and trying to succeed in your career. More and more women these days are leaving it later due to cost of living. No longer is one salary sufficient in most cases. The trouble with this leaving it later, you don't know when the menopause will hit. The age of the woman concerned isn't in the OP, but menopause can come at any age, you don't have to be in your 50s.
I was one who was never ready for a child, I had a deep rooted fear of ending up a lone parent for some reason so I had to be 100% sure of my partner, which actually is impossible to be I think. I also had fear of not being able to afford children, so you keep putting things off and off. In the end my body decided for me and at 39 I found myself pregnant totally unplanned. I also hit my menopause just after giving birth.
I am now a lone parent with a lone child knowing I will never have another. Another year later and I would never have had one at all.
The woman in the OP has to deal with the fact she left it too late on top of dealing with menopause symptoms. This will be compounded with the fact of realising she is getting older and could be alone in her old age. No, you don't have to take it out on people around you, but hormones are funny things, look at teenagers and pregnant women. It's sad for the woman as she obviously isn't happy, can only hope that when her hormones settle down she will come to terms with it.
How many stereotypes can you fit in one post? The same applies to the poster with the 'oh SHE'S not hard done by', as if it's a competition, as if she's less worthy of consideration because she chose against having children).
Choosing not to have chidren is more more selfish than having them is. Ultimately all life choices are selfish, people have children because they WANT them, people are childfree because they WANT to be. Having children doesn't necessarily mean self-sacrifice, or sacrifice of luxury anymore than being childfree means you're high flying and have no responsibilities. However empty or meaningful, short or long term, something is, is a very individual judgement.
You're right though, there is no one path to happiness, there are the bitter childless and the bitter parents (just look how many children are abused and killed weekly by their parents), conversely there are happy ones.
Menopause...menopause. Do you think that's possibly the key? Not only is it a massive life change, it brings hormonal warfare and she's likely to be up and down like a hooker's knickers, emotionally. The current feelings in regards to children may last, or she may look back on them and laugh at herself. Who knows?
There are those whom regret not having children, and those whom regret having them. If she does regret - well, regret is inevitable for all of us at some point or other. There is always the possibility of regret, it's a part of life, but we can't go through life doing things we don't want to do 'just in case', especially if said things involve others whose lives we could f**k up alongside our own.
Has she been to see a doctor about HRT or similar medications to help her through the menopause?
Me three.
I'm childfree, and i'm no more or less selfish or selfless than anyone else, and nor do i lack responsibility. Silly terms to throw around, as if we are clichés.
I have noticed how some people, blinded totally by their own perspective, cannot understand how others can feel differently, and then there are those who seemingly feel their own life choices cannot be validated unless everyone else chooses to walk the same path.
Menopause is a bitch. I haven't experienced it myself, but my childfree aunt (relevant to this discussion) suffered terribly during the process. Although her decision not to have children (made when she was a child, as mine was) she did not second guess or regret, other aspects of her life she questioned, often veering between contentment and regret in the space of a day. It is natural to be up-and-down, so i would advise the OP to give her friend a break, be there for her, and perhaps encourage her to see a doctor.
OP: Some info on what your friend is likely going through:
http://www.isoflavones.info/menopause-symptoms.php
http://www.womanlab.com/english/professionals/menopausalIssues10.htm