I'm utterly convinced there's more than the hint of something which links that piece with later pieces involving River. I just no longer have the time or tech to prove it. That and the Enigma variation which I was sure I solved but no-ome listened to a loony who works in childcare... (well maybe not... it's a tough puzzle)
I think it's the instrumentation that links the two themes (River's Library theme and her Series 6 theme). And they have somewhat similar chord progressions, so there are definitely links.
The other thing about Silence in the Library is that the barest foundations of I Am the Doctor make their first appearance in that episode, but blink and you'll miss it! That's the kind of thing that shows that Murray knows what he's doing - in an episode about the next Doctor, he sets up the next Doctor's theme.
I think it's the instrumentation that links the two themes (River's Library theme and her Series 6 theme). And they have somewhat similar chord progressions, so there are definitely links.
The other thing about Silence in the Library is that the barest foundations of I Am the Doctor make their first appearance in that episode, but blink and you'll miss it! That's the kind of thing that shows that Murray knows what he's doing - in an episode about the next Doctor, he sets up the next Doctor's theme.
I missed that... I've put the damn go to sleep music on for the missus otherwise I'd go looking. There is also a waltz in that Silence in the Library and another in Let's kill Hitler I think that are quite fun. The theme in the narrative repeats... Mysterious child who doesn't really have an understanding of what she is...
I'm not necessarily referring to series 8, but I either want him to start fresh with new material or leave and let someone else do series 9.
What, you think it's Gold's decision as to how many new pieces are paid for and how many existing (and perfectly servicable) themes are re-used to keep production costs down? Surely a professional musician would understand that it's not his decision at all...?
I missed that... I've put the damn go to sleep music on for the missus otherwise I'd go looking. There is also a waltz in that Silence in the Library and another in Let's kill Hitler I think that are quite fun. The theme in the narrative repeats... Mysterious child who doesn't really have an understanding of what she is...
I've always thought that part of River's reasoning for giving up her life in the Library was because she know how it feels to be a lost young girl who wants to do good, and wants to help as much as she can.
And the I Am the Doctor bit is when the Doctor goes running towards the little shop - the end of I Am the Doctor (the "is the Earth protected?" bit from The Eleventh Hour) plays as he runs.
I usually go by my initial reactions to a piece of any music. In earlier series the music just had an immediate impact on me and I thought wow that's such a beautiful piece. Since series 5 I can't even remember one piece if music apart from the doctors theme...
What, you think it's Gold's decision as to how many new pieces are paid for and how many existing (and perfectly servicable) themes are re-used to keep production costs down? Surely a professional musician would understand that it's not his decision at all...?
This!
Murray mentioned in an interview that he only got two mornings with an orchestra for Series 2 - and he used a lot of synthesised music/tracked music from Series 1 to fill in the gaps, he was only able to do the important stuff. I can't imagine the situation has changed that much considering virtually every cue has been written for an orchestra since Series 3.
Murray mentioned in an interview that he only got two mornings with an orchestra for Series 2 - and he used a lot of synthesised music/tracked music from Series 1 to fill in the gaps, he was only able to do the important stuff. I can't imagine the situation has changed that much considering virtually every cue has been written for an orchestra since Series 3.
I spoke with one of the guys who does work for Big Finish on some of their soundtracks etc and said this is one of the main reasons things get recycled. Sessions with actual live musicians cost money. It's easier to get a minimal in to play all the parts and track them only costing less Lunches etc...Maybe over a few days than getting the full compliment in for full sessions... Because goodness knows the more people there re the slower things go...
I spoke with one of the guys who does work for Big Finish on some of their soundtracks etc and said this is one of the main reasons things get recycled. Sessions with actual live musicians cost money. It's easier to get a minimal in to play all the parts and track them only costing less Lunches etc...Maybe over a few days than getting the full compliment in for full sessions... Because goodness knows the more people there re the slower things go...
Many thousands of pounds per session for original pieces.
Murray didn't get any orchestra sessions at all for Season 1, and didn't get more than a brief dalliance with them until Series 3 and even that series seemed to gradually rely more and more on synthesised music towards the end, particularly Last of the Time Lords. Series 4 was the first series where Murray really had room to breathe with his orchestration.
Many thousands of pounds per session for original pieces.
Murray didn't get any orchestra sessions at all for Season 1, and didn't get more than a brief dalliance with them until Series 3 and even that series seemed to gradually rely more and more on synthesised music towards the end, particularly Last of the Time Lords. Series 4 was the first series where Murray really had room to breathe with his orchestration.
I didn't know that so thanks for the heads up... Is this why there are full series CD's for the later series, less for the initial ones?
I didn't know that so thanks for the heads up... Is this why there are full series CD's for the later series, less for the initial ones?
Yep, there's really not much to put on a CD for Series 1 that would stand up to listening on its own. You might have noticed that the pieces from The Parting of the Ways are orchestrated on the CD but not in the episode, because Murray didn't get to do that until after the series had finished airing. He did all the Series 1 stuff for the CD during the two Series 2 sessions, which is ridiculous really.
Yep, there's really not much to put on a CD for Series 1 that would stand up to listening on its own. You might have noticed that the pieces from The Parting of the Ways are orchestrated on the CD but not in the episode, because Murray didn't get to do that until after the series had finished airing. He did all the Series 1 stuff for the CD during the two Series 2 sessions, which is ridiculous really.
And people complain about the music... Ye goddess we should be glad we have any...
I don't really see why we would need to have so much original material anyway. It's very hard to compose a full piece of music, let alone a good one. I don't have a problem with reusing music as long as it fits the occasion (which it has).
Murray Gold can stay for as long as he wants. I've been quite impressed by his work so far!
I'm not getting into the Murray Gold debate because it riles me when people start producing anecdotal and unfair arguments like "it's too loud" which has nothing all to do with him - it's either the mix, or the telly.
But due to the "professional musicians" angle, I will just say that as a professional musician who specialises in film/TV composition and has done for 5 years, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Murray is one of the most highly regarded British composers working today within the industry - and it is universally accepted by anyone with any qualifications to talk about this stuff that Murray is one of the main figures responsible for Doctor Who's successful return to being a part of the TV furniture. I'm baffled that anyone thinks introducing a world of leitmotifs and sound signals to the show is a bad thing, when it's a show aimed at least somewhat at children.
I just don't find ANY of his music unsettling or creepy. If there's a scary scene, he doesn't do avant-garde harmonies, he tell the violinists to act like they have palsy, he tells the horns to play random notes, he bangs on the piano, there's no creativity in that. He does a good job, considering that "it's just a TV show," but Doctor Who shouldn't be "just a TV show," it's supposed to be amazing and scary and brilliant; well-paced drama, not the fast-forwarded bollocks we've been getting recently, and part of Murray's lacking originality COULD be due to the decline of the show, but I still think that if we had a complete fresh start, it would revitalise the show.
What, you think it's Gold's decision as to how many new pieces are paid for and how many existing (and perfectly servicable) themes are re-used to keep production costs down? Surely a professional musician would understand that it's not his decision at all...?
As I work mainly in electronic music, I don't know a lot about orchestra sessions and all that, but I do know that if I were told to score something, and I wasn't able to use something orchestral, I'd be more likely to write a new electronic piece than recycle a previously used track. And I've got nothing against the odd recycling of a bit of music, but the CONSTANT RE-ARRANGEMENT AND REPETITION OF THE SAME PIECE really irks me. I'm referring to "I am the Doctor" if you hadn't figured that out.
I just don't find ANY of his music unsettling or creepy. If there's a scary scene, he doesn't do avant-garde harmonies, he tell the violinists to act like they have palsy, he tells the horns to play random notes, he bangs on the piano, there's no creativity in that. He does a good job, considering that "it's just a TV show," but Doctor Who shouldn't be "just a TV show," it's supposed to be amazing and scary and brilliant; well-paced drama, not the fast-forwarded bollocks we've been getting recently, and part of Murray's lacking originality COULD be due to the decline of the show, but I still think that if we had a complete fresh start, it would revitalise the show.
Find the thread that points out that each episode of Star Trek TNG had a 2million dollar budget ( in the 80's/90's)... Then listen to their scoring... And they could afford a full orchestra! I think he does well on what he has.
I certainly don't disagree with all you're saying. You just obviously have a more refined musical palate than our average DW viewer... So you expect more.
Find the thread that points out that each episode of Star Trek TNG had a 2million dollar budget ( in the 80's/90's)... Then listen to their scoring... And they could afford a full orchestra! I think he does well on what he has.
I've never denied that Murray does a good job. He does. A very good job.
I certainly don't disagree with all you're saying. You just obviously have a more refined musical palate than our average DW viewer... So you expect more.
I've never denied that Murray does a good job. He does. A very good job.
That's probably it...
I think working in an industry does tend one towards a different view... I work with kids all day so my musical expectations are relatively low. When getting a child to clap at the right place in "if you're happy and ou know it" is a musical triumph for the day, well anything goes really.
I think working in an industry does tend one towards a different view... I work with kids all day so my musical expectations are relatively low. When getting a child to clap at the right place in "if you're happy and ou know it" is a musical triumph for the day, well anything goes really.
Heh. :):rolleyes::D;)
I just think that a show with as long of a history as Doctor Who should have higher standards. :mad:
I just think that a show with as long of a history as Doctor Who should have higher standards. :mad:
I don't watch a great deal of TV, but I can't think of any other British TV drama that has such a rich score as Doctor Who.
The only other series that I can think of, off the top of my head, which has such a lavish score is Game of Thrones, but that's an epic American production, and well, frankly TV on a different scale to anything that I have seen before.
I don't watch a great deal of TV, but I can't think of any other British TV drama that has such a rich score as Doctor Who.
The only other series that I can think of, off the top of my head, which has such a lavish score is Game of Thrones, but that's an epic American production, and well, frankly TV on a different scale to anything that I have seen before.
IMO, lavish is overrated; it should be clever and creepy. Howver, I would like to clarify that I have NEVER said that Murray lacks talent, or that he doesn't do a good job.
I don't know if Murray Gold should go but whoever is responsible for the background music frequently being too loud, too obtrusive and too cartoonish-sounding should go.
Certainly when I watch shows like "Star Trek: The Next Generation", the music fits in nicely in the background and subtly adds to the show and just in general sounds very professional which I simply do not think is always the case with Doctor Who.
To be clear, I'm not saying the background music in Doctor Who is always bad, there are times when it's good but I don't think it's consistent. For example, I think the background music in the 5th Doctor's episodes is generally fine but I recently watched "Time and the Rani" again, a McCoy episode, and not only was the episode awful so was the background music. In the same way, I don't think the music is new Who is consistently good either. Sometimes it is but other times it just doesn't sound very professional to me, certainly not compared to other shows.
Is this just another excuse to have an RTD vs Moff thread? The music has been great throughout, sure there have been duds but there have been greats to, it's just down to how experimental Gold can get with an episode, such as "A Town Called Mercy" where he broke out a slide guitar for a lot of the score, of "Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS" which had some brilliant music to go with it, especially in the Control Panel Clones room.
Seriously, those saying that Doctor Who hasn't had anything good music wise since Series 4 should really at least give this a listen, if that's not good, then, really what the hell are you expecting? Talk about Rose Tinted Glasses.
I was expressing MY honest opinion, as well as that of a number of other musicians I know.
Who are most likely jealous buggers because they haven't got the gig.
Doubtless if the internet had been around in the late 60s, we'd have had people saying "Let's be honest, John Barry should leave the Bond series because all his scores sound the same. He must be getting complacent." Whereas, of course, a John Barry was distinctive - but no less distinguished because of it. The same applies to Murray Gold.
Comments
I think it's the instrumentation that links the two themes (River's Library theme and her Series 6 theme). And they have somewhat similar chord progressions, so there are definitely links.
The other thing about Silence in the Library is that the barest foundations of I Am the Doctor make their first appearance in that episode, but blink and you'll miss it! That's the kind of thing that shows that Murray knows what he's doing - in an episode about the next Doctor, he sets up the next Doctor's theme.
I missed that... I've put the damn go to sleep music on for the missus otherwise I'd go looking. There is also a waltz in that Silence in the Library and another in Let's kill Hitler I think that are quite fun. The theme in the narrative repeats... Mysterious child who doesn't really have an understanding of what she is...
What, you think it's Gold's decision as to how many new pieces are paid for and how many existing (and perfectly servicable) themes are re-used to keep production costs down? Surely a professional musician would understand that it's not his decision at all...?
I've always thought that part of River's reasoning for giving up her life in the Library was because she know how it feels to be a lost young girl who wants to do good, and wants to help as much as she can.
And the I Am the Doctor bit is when the Doctor goes running towards the little shop - the end of I Am the Doctor (the "is the Earth protected?" bit from The Eleventh Hour) plays as he runs.
This!
Murray mentioned in an interview that he only got two mornings with an orchestra for Series 2 - and he used a lot of synthesised music/tracked music from Series 1 to fill in the gaps, he was only able to do the important stuff. I can't imagine the situation has changed that much considering virtually every cue has been written for an orchestra since Series 3.
I spoke with one of the guys who does work for Big Finish on some of their soundtracks etc and said this is one of the main reasons things get recycled. Sessions with actual live musicians cost money. It's easier to get a minimal in to play all the parts and track them only costing less Lunches etc...Maybe over a few days than getting the full compliment in for full sessions... Because goodness knows the more people there re the slower things go...
Many thousands of pounds per session for original pieces.
Murray didn't get any orchestra sessions at all for Season 1, and didn't get more than a brief dalliance with them until Series 3 and even that series seemed to gradually rely more and more on synthesised music towards the end, particularly Last of the Time Lords. Series 4 was the first series where Murray really had room to breathe with his orchestration.
I didn't know that so thanks for the heads up...
Yep, there's really not much to put on a CD for Series 1 that would stand up to listening on its own. You might have noticed that the pieces from The Parting of the Ways are orchestrated on the CD but not in the episode, because Murray didn't get to do that until after the series had finished airing. He did all the Series 1 stuff for the CD during the two Series 2 sessions, which is ridiculous really.
And people complain about the music... Ye goddess we should be glad we have any...
Murray Gold can stay for as long as he wants. I've been quite impressed by his work so far!
I just don't find ANY of his music unsettling or creepy. If there's a scary scene, he doesn't do avant-garde harmonies, he tell the violinists to act like they have palsy, he tells the horns to play random notes, he bangs on the piano, there's no creativity in that. He does a good job, considering that "it's just a TV show," but Doctor Who shouldn't be "just a TV show," it's supposed to be amazing and scary and brilliant; well-paced drama, not the fast-forwarded bollocks we've been getting recently, and part of Murray's lacking originality COULD be due to the decline of the show, but I still think that if we had a complete fresh start, it would revitalise the show.
As I work mainly in electronic music, I don't know a lot about orchestra sessions and all that, but I do know that if I were told to score something, and I wasn't able to use something orchestral, I'd be more likely to write a new electronic piece than recycle a previously used track. And I've got nothing against the odd recycling of a bit of music, but the CONSTANT RE-ARRANGEMENT AND REPETITION OF THE SAME PIECE really irks me. I'm referring to "I am the Doctor" if you hadn't figured that out.
Find the thread that points out that each episode of Star Trek TNG had a 2million dollar budget ( in the 80's/90's)... Then listen to their scoring... And they could afford a full orchestra! I think he does well on what he has.
I certainly don't disagree with all you're saying. You just obviously have a more refined musical palate than our average DW viewer... So you expect more.
I've never denied that Murray does a good job. He does. A very good job.
That's probably it...
I think working in an industry does tend one towards a different view... I work with kids all day so my musical expectations are relatively low. When getting a child to clap at the right place in "if you're happy and ou know it" is a musical triumph for the day, well anything goes really.
Heh.
I just think that a show with as long of a history as Doctor Who should have higher standards. :mad:
I don't watch a great deal of TV, but I can't think of any other British TV drama that has such a rich score as Doctor Who.
The only other series that I can think of, off the top of my head, which has such a lavish score is Game of Thrones, but that's an epic American production, and well, frankly TV on a different scale to anything that I have seen before.
IMO, lavish is overrated; it should be clever and creepy. Howver, I would like to clarify that I have NEVER said that Murray lacks talent, or that he doesn't do a good job.
Certainly when I watch shows like "Star Trek: The Next Generation", the music fits in nicely in the background and subtly adds to the show and just in general sounds very professional which I simply do not think is always the case with Doctor Who.
To be clear, I'm not saying the background music in Doctor Who is always bad, there are times when it's good but I don't think it's consistent. For example, I think the background music in the 5th Doctor's episodes is generally fine but I recently watched "Time and the Rani" again, a McCoy episode, and not only was the episode awful so was the background music. In the same way, I don't think the music is new Who is consistently good either. Sometimes it is but other times it just doesn't sound very professional to me, certainly not compared to other shows.
Seriously, those saying that Doctor Who hasn't had anything good music wise since Series 4 should really at least give this a listen, if that's not good, then, really what the hell are you expecting? Talk about Rose Tinted Glasses.
Who are most likely jealous buggers because they haven't got the gig.
Doubtless if the internet had been around in the late 60s, we'd have had people saying "Let's be honest, John Barry should leave the Bond series because all his scores sound the same. He must be getting complacent." Whereas, of course, a John Barry was distinctive - but no less distinguished because of it. The same applies to Murray Gold.