Sherlock - BBC Drama (Part 3)

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  • Eater SundaeEater Sundae Posts: 10,000
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    Umm, Sherlock thought he did too.It wouldn't have made as interesting a storyline if everyone thought for certain all along that there were no vaults.

    Or, Sherlock was pretending that he thought it was the glasses in order that CAM would be lulled into a false sense of security - thinking he was vastly superior to Sherlock, thus letting down his guard by letting Sherlock visit his lair. (In his earlier explanation of the fall, to Anderson, Sherlock explained that he had pretended to Moriarty that he knew less than he really did, so it's not a new tactic).

    When Sherlock and Watson arrived CAM was essentially showing off that his own mind is better than Sherlock's and how he will always have control over whether Mary lives or dies. Once he had proof that there was no other records, and that CAM would never hand over everything concerning Mary (because he couldn't as it was inside his head), but that he could use the information whenever he wanted, then the only way Sherlock could destroy the information (and so keep his last vow to look after John and Mary), would be to destroy CAM.
  • Shawn_LunnShawn_Lunn Posts: 9,353
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    Okay, that was a great finale but not without it's faults and the obvious one being CAM himself.

    The actor did well in making him creepy and repellent but he lacked the presence in the series like Moriarty did and was killed off so briskly, it was hard to give a toss about it.

    It also didn't help that Moriarty was brought back as well too. I hope Moffat and company know what they're doing there, much as I love seeing Andrew Scott on the show.

    Glad to see that Mary will remain on the show too. Nice that we learned some of her story without knowing all of it as well.

    Great moments with characters like Billy and Janine and the Holmes parents as well as choice scenes with Sherlock/Mycroft and Watson/Mary too.

    Can't wait to see what the next run of episode will deliver, 8/10
  • Virgil TracyVirgil Tracy Posts: 26,805
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    ok , I still don't understand why Mary shot Sherlock .

    .
  • Eater SundaeEater Sundae Posts: 10,000
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    That is my problem. IMO many series which start out brilliantly and are highly praised (rightly so) become a sort of game for the writers... they try harder and harder to entertain themselves with plot twists and character development that they lose sight of the entertainment of the viewers.

    Sherlock started out as a exceptionally intelligent crime and problem solver - he has now turned into a criminal himself. I don't know, maybe it is because I am getting older. I want to be entertained not spend hours wondering what the hell had just gone one - I love Sherlock and John Watson but I like them solving crimes that don't require a degree in psychology and philosophy to understand.

    But surely it can be taken at many levels. You can watch it as a piece of escapist adventure. It isn't necessary to micro-analyse the plot. The decision is the viewers'.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 17,060
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    catsitter wrote: »
    I think it was A. G. R. A.

    I know this is simplistic, but could it be based on the actress's real name, Amanda (G R) Abbington?

    And speaking of nepotism, Moffat casting his own son as young Sherlock was too much. He didn't even have a resemblance to BC. I'm sure they could have found a more appropriate child actor, instead of literally keeping it in the family. In the last few years I've tended to feel that Moffat makes his episodes for himself, rather than for the audience. Doctor Who has mostly become a pile of self-congratulatory wank, and I don't want Sherlock to follow suit.
  • Joy DeanJoy Dean Posts: 21,346
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    ok , I still don't understand why Mary shot Sherlock .

    .

    Nor I. And I found her unreal and unnecessary (as I might have said, on page 49 I think :) )
  • Virgil TracyVirgil Tracy Posts: 26,805
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    Or, Sherlock was pretending that he thought it was the glasses in order that CAM would be lulled into a false sense of security - thinking he was vastly superior to Sherlock, thus letting down his guard by letting Sherlock visit his lair. (In his earlier explanation of the fall, to Anderson, Sherlock explained that he had pretended to Moriarty that he knew less than he really did, so it's not a new tactic).

    When Sherlock and Watson arrived CAM was essentially showing off that his own mind is better than Sherlock's and how he will always have control over whether Mary lives or dies. Once he had proof that there was no other records, and that CAM would never hand over everything concerning Mary (because he couldn't as it was inside his head), but that he could use the information whenever he wanted, then the only way Sherlock could destroy the information (and so keep his last vow to look after John and Mary), would be to destroy CAM.

    but didn't CAM also say that he could send for the info if he couldn't remember it ?
  • brangdonbrangdon Posts: 14,098
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    Welsh-lad wrote: »
    Even more of a reason to take him out if they thought there were actual vaults. Kill off Magnuson, government seizes the vaults. Job done.
    If Magnuson was the type to keep records, he might have kept some elsewhere that would be revealed after his death. It was only after establishing that Magnuson kept it all in his mind, and didn't trust written records any more than he trusted electronic ones, that he could be killed.
    eggshell wrote: »
    "Yes Sherlocks clever way of sorting out the Magnusson threat was to kill him..something Mary attempted an hour ago but what makes it different for Sherlock is....OH LOOK ITS MORIARTY !!!"
    I don't think Mary was going to kill Magnuson, for the same reason no-one else could. She didn't know the records existed only in Magnuson's brain. (If she had known, she would have told Sherlock after becoming his client.)

    Physically killing Magnuson would have been fairly easy, especially for someone like Mary, and especially if you didn't care about collateral damage. If it had been thought a viable solution, someone like Mycroft would have arranged it long ago. It's not clear what Mary's plan was, but it can't have been simple murder.
    Magnusson was never presented as being 'evil' enough to warrant his execution.
    He was evil, but also petty. Licking that woman's face, or flicking Watson's eyeball, showed what a nasty person he was in small things. He mentions doing analogous things to entire countries, so he has surely created a lot of misery. (Admittedly this was an example of telling, not showing.)
    So the comfort of Watson's family life was worth a man's life. I don't buy it personally. For me the stake wasn't big enough to justify the cost.
    The title of the episode referred to the vow he made during his Best Man's speech, to the effect that he'd do anything to preserve John and Mary's happiness together. That vow constrained his actions. That's part of why he couldn't turn Mary in, and why he had to let John know the truth about her. It's why he had to deal with Magnuson (and as others have said, death was the only way). (I'm surprised this has been discussed so much here, without anyone pointing out the episode title.)
    Hetal wrote: »
    Seeing as they didn't show us how Sherlock survived then it wouldn't surprise me if they won't show how Moriarty survived.
    They did show us how Sherlock survived. It's a shame people can't accept it. We had them expecting a fourth explanation in the final episode, and now that wasn't forthcoming you hope for an explanation in season 4? It's not going to happen. We've been given the explanation and it involved a man who looked exactly like Sherlock and a bouncy ball, both of which were previously introduced as clues.
  • Virgil TracyVirgil Tracy Posts: 26,805
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    Moffat loves to kill main characters ... and then reveal it was a all a fake , he did it loads on DW and he's done it several times here .

    which is why I never believed Moriarty was dead .

    oh , don't be daft !
  • brangdonbrangdon Posts: 14,098
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    ok , I still don't understand why Mary shot Sherlock .
    To stop him talking. She was trying to keep her involvement secret from Watson. Shooting Sherlock in the leg wouldn't have achieved that. Her options were limited by having to deal with Magnuson at the same time.
  • RednellRednell Posts: 2,528
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    Jerrica09 wrote: »
    I know this is simplistic, but could it be based on the actress's real name, Amanda (G R) Abbington?

    And speaking of nepotism, Moffat casting his own son as young Sherlock was too much. He didn't even have a resemblance to BC. I'm sure they could have found a more appropriate child actor, instead of literally keeping it in the family. In the last few years I've tended to feel that Moffat makes his episodes for himself, rather than for the audience. Doctor Who has mostly become a pile of self-congratulatory wank, and I don't want Sherlock to follow suit.

    It could be. I got sidetracked by the news agency Magnusson owned, the big lettering on the offices Sherlock and Watson broke into. Wasn't it something like AAG news? Seems a little coincidental, those initials.
  • Virgil TracyVirgil Tracy Posts: 26,805
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    ok , amongst many unbelievable plot lines the most unbelievable has to be Sherlock giving Janine the elbow , that girl is super-hot , he must be gay or completely uninterested in sex !
  • misty cloudmisty cloud Posts: 1,286
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    Best bit of this series was "miss me" totally awesome im so frigging happy :) don't care how they do it, just bring back Jim :)
  • Virgil TracyVirgil Tracy Posts: 26,805
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    brangdon wrote: »
    To stop him talking. She was trying to keep her involvement secret from Watson. Shooting Sherlock in the leg wouldn't have achieved that. Her options were limited by having to deal with Magnuson at the same time.

    to stop him talking ? do you mean she meant to kill him ?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 17,060
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    Best bit of this series was "miss me" totally awesome im so frigging happy :) don't care how they do it, just bring back Jim :)

    Or his vengeful twin brother!
  • Virgil TracyVirgil Tracy Posts: 26,805
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    does anyone have a link to the Q&A that moffatt and Gatiss did last night ?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 13
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    I know a lot of people feel that the character development in this series has taken the main focus from their investigations like in the previous series but I have really loved every episode.

    Last season I loved A Scandal in Belgravia, amazing episode, but the following two episodes I didn't think lived up to the first.

    I've enjoyed this series so much I've seen episode 1 four times, 2 three times and so far I've watched the 3rd twice. That for me is unheard of because it's usually months before I re-watch programs. But on a 2nd/3rd viewing I enjoy the fact I pick up on different things each time that I missed previously.
  • FayecorgasmFayecorgasm Posts: 29,793
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    does anyone have a link to the Q&A that moffatt and Gatiss did last night ?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03pzpgy/live i think this is it
  • Eater SundaeEater Sundae Posts: 10,000
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    ok , amongst many unbelievable plot lines the most unbelievable has to be Sherlock giving Janine the elbow , that girl is super-hot , he must be gay or completely uninterested in sex !

    This^^^^^

    The was playing a part of someone in love with her. Sherlock is a good actor so able to convincingly play a part. Of course, he didn't "follow through", hence the reference to waiting until they were married.
  • aggsaggs Posts: 29,459
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    But the very point was that the facts he acquired were true that made the difference. Look at Lady Smallwood - she knew all about her husband's affair with the 15 year old girl. She knew that letters had at some point existed, and she believed he had them in his possession. If it were revealed, he would end up disgraced and in prison potentially.

    Look at this from the perspective of him threatening to make something like that up - if you didn't believe him to have substantial evidence, then it be far less threatening. Libel laws place the burden of proof upon the libeller - but since they believe him to have the evidence in his possession, it would be brave of them to go against it. If he made it up, he'd need to fabricate evidence to defend his allegations in court.

    The problem lies with the fact that Magnussen appeared to have seen the documents at some point and memorised them - so where are they now?

    It's power, isn't it?
    He knew Lord Smallwood's secret and how to manipulate that to get what he wanted.
    He let them think there was a chance of getting the letters and photographs back (and there was a photo at some point - he was seen holding it) and so showing Sherlock a bundle of letters implies that there is still something to hand back.

    Lord Smallwood seemed to think what he had was real and credible enough - he committed suicide.
  • Eater SundaeEater Sundae Posts: 10,000
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    gashead wrote: »
    Maybe I missed a line, but surely the whole premise of Magnusson's blackmail was flawed, in that it's not enough to know, or claim to know, someone's secret, you actually have to have proof for blackmail to be as effective as we were supposed to believe it was for Magnussuon, and I don't recall it being made clear that Magnusson actually did have proof? This point was made by Sherlock, so was it established that he did, just not at his home/ office, or was he always bluffing, on the assumption that his victims didn't want to take the risk? :confused:

    WTF was the whole 'Google Glass' thing about?! Obviously we the viewer were meant to believe that's what he was using to recall facts, but why did Sherlock believe he was using it? As we learned later, it was a just a visual representation of his memory recall technique (cheap trick; why make it look like a computer read-out if it was nothing of the sort?), but what did Sherlock think Magnusson's 'special ability' was that led him to believe he must be using some sort gadget? I don't recall any scene where Sherlock was amazed at Magnusson's ability to recall facts and figures - and even if he was, if Sherlock can do it, why wouldn't he think someone else could use the same technique? - so what did he think the glasses were for? :confused:

    Re bib. As I understood it, as he was a powerful newspaper magnate, he could print whatever he wanted, and people would believe him. He didn't have to prove anything.
  • solenoidsolenoid Posts: 15,495
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    Lord Smallwood seemed to think what he had was real and credible enough - he committed suicide.
    Which made Magnusson's reveal to Sherlock utterly idiotic unless he intended to kill Holmes and Watson.
  • brangdonbrangdon Posts: 14,098
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    to stop him talking ? do you mean she meant to kill him ?
    No; she just had to stop him talking long enough for her to get back to him and negotiate his silence. Which she did, at his hospital bed. Knocking him unconscious probably wouldn't have given her enough time.
    Re bib. As I understood it, as he was a powerful newspaper magnate, he could print whatever he wanted, and people would believe him. He didn't have to prove anything.
    He was on much safer ground if the things he printed were actually true, though; and the victims knew they were true, knew he knew, and also believed he had evidence that could prove it. That would make it hard for them to deny, hard to sue over it.
  • FayecorgasmFayecorgasm Posts: 29,793
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    This^^^^^

    The was playing a part of someone in love with her. Sherlock is a good actor so able to convincingly play a part. Of course, he didn't "follow through", hence the reference to waiting until they were married.

    I must say I'm glad I'm not too intelligent for sex :D
  • DJW13DJW13 Posts: 4,274
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    Jerrica09 wrote: »
    I know this is simplistic, but could it be based on the actress's real name, Amanda (G R) Abbington?

    You could be right - however, she was born Amanda Jane Smith (I don't know where the Abbington came from, unless it is just her stage name?). Her daughter's name with Martin Freeman is Grace...
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