Nearly half of new jobs are people classifying themselves self employed

HildaonplutoHildaonpluto Posts: 37,697
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Nearly half of the new 1.2 million jobs since the coalition camw to power are peoplw recassifying themselves as selfemployed-for the most part not entrepeurs but insecure employment below £10,000

Sounds like a move to low pay to me.


http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/apr/14/job-market-instability-self-employed-tuc
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Comments

  • AnnsyreAnnsyre Posts: 109,504
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    http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/apr/14/job-market-instability-self-employed-
    Nearly half of the new 1.2 million jobs since the coalition camw to power are peoplw recassifying themselves as selfemployed-for the most part not entrepeurs but insecure employment below £10,000

    Sounds like a move to low pay to me.

    Good, people must be starting up businesses.
  • HildaonplutoHildaonpluto Posts: 37,697
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    Annsyre wrote: »
    Good, people must be starting up businesses.

    You clearly havent read the article!Self employed ONE employer "businesses"
  • Max LoveMax Love Posts: 358
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    That's good for the figures but not actually helping the economy with tax contributions or money to spend in shops
  • AnnsyreAnnsyre Posts: 109,504
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    You clearly havent read the article!Self employed ONE employer "businesses"

    Great oaks from small acorns grow.
  • HildaonplutoHildaonpluto Posts: 37,697
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    Max Love wrote: »
    That's good for the figures but not actually helping the economy with tax contributions or money to spend in shops

    Sadly true and may signal a move to an expanding low wage economy.
  • HildaonplutoHildaonpluto Posts: 37,697
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    Annsyre wrote: »
    Great oaks from small acorns grow.
    You either have nothing to say or you havent read the article as theres few signs of oaks.
    Platitudes are meaningless although very tory.
  • paulschapmanpaulschapman Posts: 35,536
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    You clearly havent read the article!Self employed

    Self-employment has been growing for over a decade. Nor have you said where the numbers who are not getting below £10,0000.

    Nor does it make a difference if they are one man or many - you cannot look at a one man company and say that is what it always will be either. In law it makes no difference. A self-employed person is said to be working under a contract for service (a contract of service is employment). Further in law the self-employed person is classified as a 'worker' and so should still get the NMW.

    As for the precarious nature of unemployment - that goes with the territory. Did it for 15 years
  • HildaonplutoHildaonpluto Posts: 37,697
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    Annsyre wrote: »
    Great oaks from small acorns grow.
    You clearly havent read the article!Self employed

    Self-employment has been growing for over a decade. Nor have you said where the numbers who are not getting below £10,0000.

    Nor does it make a difference if they are one man or many - you cannot look at a one man company and say that is what it always will be either. In law it makes no difference. A self-employed person is said to be working under a contract for service (a contract of service is employment). Further in law the self-employed person is classified as a 'worker' and so should still get the NMW.

    As for the precarious nature of unemployment - that goes with the territory. Did it for 15 years
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/15/help-to-work-punishing-jobless

    Perhaps this article will help .Average for a self employed female merely £10,000

    Your point on the law is adjacent to the argument and of no relevance to the statistics.
  • EnnerjeeEnnerjee Posts: 5,131
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    Nearly half of the new 1.2 million jobs since the coalition camw to power are peoplw recassifying themselves as selfemployed-for the most part not entrepeurs but insecure employment below £10,000

    Sounds like a move to low pay to me.


    http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/apr/14/job-market-instability-self-employed-tuc

    Of course it's moving towards a low wage economy in line with the aims of the EU and freedom of movement.

    With the government's war on self-employed people paying reduced tax becoming self-employed is not necessarily as attractive as it once was.

    The EU and our future governments will not be satisfied until we reach a state of high tax, low wage, high population, an oversupply of workers (both skilled and unskilled) in order to drive wages down further and control the majority of the population.

    I believe the economy is rapidly moving towards a modern version of a 19th century economy. Maybe we have a couple of world wars to look forward to that will create a new world order with China pulling the strings.

    Perhaps I'm being too cynical, but increasingly higher house prices, increasingly lower wages and the consequence of an increasing gap between rich and poor I find it difficult to be optimistic.
  • EnnerjeeEnnerjee Posts: 5,131
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    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/15/help-to-work-punishing-jobless

    Perhaps this article will help .Average for a self employed female merely £10,000

    Your point on the law is adjacent to the argument and of no relevance to the statistics.

    That average would be based on what they declare.
  • edExedEx Posts: 13,460
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    Couldn't a large part of these "self-employed" people be tradesmen on building sites? It's pretty standard for that industry.
  • paulschapmanpaulschapman Posts: 35,536
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    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/15/help-to-work-punishing-jobless
    Perhaps this article will help .Average for a self employed female merely £10,000

    Just female - someone should tell all the female self-employed people I know - but of those how many are in clerical work, or cleaning - both heavy users of self-employed, but low pay. Of those how many are say students supplementing income, how many are mothers wanting small amount of work to fit around children?

    Simply put - how do you know these people did not choose self-employment rather than were 'forced'?
    Your point on the law is adjacent to the argument and of no relevance to the statistics.

    But it is not the NMW refers to 'workers' not 'employees' and as such £10K is below that level - they are entitled to at least the NMW both morally and legally. Further just because someone is classed as self-employed (even if they say so themselves) they may not be in law, and therefore are entitled to all the rights of any other full-time person.
  • gummy mummygummy mummy Posts: 26,600
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    wazzyboy wrote: »

    So basically it's all about the unemployment figures looking good, a bit like the creation of jobs in the public sector by Labour was.

    Both can still rely on benefits to top up wages.
  • dosanjh1dosanjh1 Posts: 8,727
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    edEx wrote: »
    Couldn't a large part of these "self-employed" people be tradesmen on building sites? It's pretty standard for that industry.

    I bet I wouldn't be far wrong if I suggest this organisation are somewhat responsible for encouraging self employment:

    http://www.maximusuk.co.uk/

    Edit

    Sorry can't forget these guys

    http://www.seetec.co.uk/

    or

    http://www.ingeus.co.uk/

    I've met a lot of unemployed people who have had dealings with these lot and the feeling is the only way to make the unemployable employed is if their self employed. That way you get 'em of the books you see.
  • HildaonplutoHildaonpluto Posts: 37,697
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    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/15/help-to-work-punishing-jobless



    Just female - someone should tell all the female self-employed people I know - but of those how many are in clerical work, or cleaning - both heavy users of self-employed, but low pay. Of those how many are say students supplementing income, how many are mothers wanting small amount of work to fit around children?

    Simply put - how do you know these people did not choose self-employment rather than were 'forced'? I havent suggested all our forced Im suggesting this method is an increasingly used tool of POLITICAL MANIPULATION



    But it is not the NMW refers to 'workers' not 'employees' and as such £10K is below that level - they are entitled to at least the NMW both morally and legally. Further just because someone is classed as self-employed (even if they say so themselves) they may not be in law, and therefore are entitled to all the rights of any other full-time person.
    dosanjh1 wrote: »
    I bet I wouldn't be far wrong if I suggest this organisation are somewhat responsible for encouraging self employment:

    http://www.maximusuk.co.uk/

    Edit

    Sorry can't forget these guys

    http://www.seetec.co.uk/

    or

    http://www.ingeus.co.uk/

    I've met a lot of unemployed people who have had dealings with these lot and the feeling is the only way to make the unemployable employed is if their self employed. That way you get 'em of the books you see.

    Precisely unfortanuately
  • dosanjh1dosanjh1 Posts: 8,727
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    Precisely unfortanuately

    This article from a year ago has some anecdotal evidence of what seems to be going on.
  • LostFoolLostFool Posts: 90,648
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    edEx wrote: »
    Couldn't a large part of these "self-employed" people be tradesmen on building sites? It's pretty standard for that industry.

    Possibly. But at least that would be an indication of an improvement in the construction industry. It's also very common in IT, media and entertainment.

    If anyone is setting up their own businesses then the very best of British to them. I tried it during a period of redundancy about 15 years ago but it wasn't for me. I much preferred a job with a fixed income.
  • EnnerjeeEnnerjee Posts: 5,131
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    Annsyre wrote: »
    Great oaks from small acorns grow.

    True, but 80% of those acorns rot.
  • LostFoolLostFool Posts: 90,648
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    Ennerjee wrote: »
    True, but 80% of those acorns rot.

    Natural selection at work.
  • HildaonplutoHildaonpluto Posts: 37,697
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    LostFool wrote: »
    Natural selection at work.

    Capitalism at work-historically speaking a way of life that humanity hasnt "adopted" for very long after years of living in more cooperative societies
  • smudges dadsmudges dad Posts: 36,989
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    Annsyre wrote: »
    Great oaks from small acorns grow.

    True, but an oak tree produces many thousands of acorns each year, and hardly any of them germinate, let alone grow into trees.
  • ShaunIOWShaunIOW Posts: 11,320
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    Weren't unemployed people encouraged to go self-employed to get them off the job seekers register but not actually save any benefits payments as they now get them as working tax credits instead?
  • AxtolAxtol Posts: 8,480
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    Could someone quickly tell me how this works as I have heard employers hire you but then they class you as self employed so they can pay you less but really have no idea how this is legal or possible?
  • Chester666666Chester666666 Posts: 9,020
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    ShaunIOW wrote: »
    Weren't unemployed people encouraged to go self-employed to get them off the job seekers register but not actually save any benefits payments as they now get them as working tax credits instead?

    Exactly
    The WP encourages people into self-employment as a quick fix
    Often the calculations about working involves benefits still being paid when there's low hours and stuff
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