If Scotland ties its economy to the pound and the Bank of England, then we own you. You can call yourself independent as much as you want, but in reality, you belong to England. Salmond will probably try to save face and have it renamed the Bank of the Isles or something similar.
As an English observer, I've always been impressed by the patriotism the Scots show towards their country. They always appeared to be proud to be Scottish first, and British second. That's fine. I like that. As an English person, I'm the same. But Scotland always demonstrated quite brilliantly how they can preserve their sense of identity whilst benefitting from being part of a prosperous Union. I think it is incredibly sad, terribly sad infact, that there is now a chance they want to give up the benefits of being part of a Union they prosper from to try and make it on their own. The Scots have their identity, their own parliament, their own language and culture, whilst at the same time they have support from the UK Government in general and a helping hand with regards to money if they should need it. Why on earth would they want to give that all up?
In my experience, most Scots don't have a chip on their shoulder, but they do occasionally have attitudes towards the English that have been instilled upon by past generations. It's historical. Nothing more. But even so, the UK is a fantastically diverse country. Each of the four countries within it are amazing. I mean that sincerely. But what does sometimes grate on me is the way some Scots think Westminster is like the Gestapo. The fact because the Tories are currently in power (with the LibDems admittedly) that they are the only ones who suffer. Truth is, voting for Independence just because the Tories exist is childish - and dangerous. English people who vote Labour are equally as stuck with the current westminster administration as much as anyone else in the UK. But, there are laws passed in England only that are voted on by Scottish MP's (admittedly not the SNP) which is unfair to the English. Our system in the UK isn't perfect. Far from it. But the Scots do need to stop thinking that Westminster is the curse of evil. It really isn't. It's funny that if Labour had a majority, the Scots go quiet about Westminster anyway.
I agree with a lot of what you say - often do.
I've followed a lot of the threads and links on DS and TV debates etc. Each time I delve behind the presented facts Scotland, to me, gets a fair deal (near as dammit), even a better deal when it comes to an individual's daily life. Right now I'm convinced we are economically better together for Scottish jobs, the currency, borrowing power, oil tax receipts instability, economies of scale, market diversification etc etc I believe we will both suffer if we split now - Scotland proportionally more.
So why ?
I think it's impossible to really understand unless you are one of the few, not the many.
For me, an anglo-scottish mongrel, my heart wants us to stay together. But when I hear the Scottish public's queries and concerns I ask myself so if there weren't such strong economic handcuffs and uncertainties would they prefer to be independent ? My instinct is that a clear majority would say yes, some would be indifferent (politicians are politicians) but only a few would have any real passion to stay.
The more I read about the history of our union and hear from the Scottish voices, the more I think that the union has been one of political convenience - politically we are only fair weather friends. I think independence is inevitable but has to be done through steady devolution and untangling of our economies, probably over decades.
So, on balance, my ideal would be a No now, but Yes later - eventually devo max but with an end date.
I don't envy the Scots on the things they have to weigh up, the politicians have let them down.
This is the thing that really annoys me. The YES supporters seem to think they can have it all and sod the rest. The things they have currently is because they are part of the UK. The Sterling is the UK's. Why can't they see that if they CHOOSE (no-one is forcing them) to leave the UK then anything they have that is due to the UK no longer belongs to them! If the UK do not want to go into currency union with them they have to accept that. It isn't spite. It isn't petty. It's the UK putting the interests of its 50m citizens above the 9m Scottish ones who decided to stand on their own two feet. Vote yes, but for God's sake I wish they'd bloody well wake up and smell the coffee.
Scotland gets more per head, but also contributes more per head.
Scotland has balanced its books every year since we have had our Parlaiment, we are more than capable of ensuring this continues--we arent going to splurge on a big massive bender
I agree that having a currency union isnt ideal, but for all intents and purposes we already have a currency union, where interest rates that are right for England are also the interest rates for Scotland.
currency union is the price we pay for ensuring a strong economy for both countries, the positives outweigh the negatives.
we cant set our own interest rates right now, so currency union wont change that.
Yes but at the moment you have MP's in parliament that have a say on UK economic policy.
Under Alec Salmond's plans Scotland will have no say on UK economic policy which will directly effect Scotland's economy.
Yes but at the moment you have MP's in parliament that have a say on UK economic policy.
Under Alec Salmond's plans Scotland will have no say on UK economic policy which will directly effect Scotland's economy.
In fact 2 of the last 3 Chancellors have been Scottish and ran UK economic policy (Norman Lamont was Scottish too but let's forget about that). From that to having no control over your currency. Call that progress?
we voted 1 tory MP yet have a tory PM,,,how influential are our MPs on economic policy?
We (in this area) voting for Labour, but we have a Tory PM. Stop with the bloody Victim Complex for god's sake. Scotland aren't the only ones in this situation...
In fact 2 of the last 3 Chancellors have been Scottish and ran UK economic policy (Norman Lamont was Scottish too but let's forget about that). From that to having no control over your currency. Call that progress?
i'm sorry did those Scottish Chancellors have separate economic policies for Scotland than England?
We (in this area) voting for Labour, but we have a Tory PM. Stop with the bloody Victim Complex for god's sake. Scotland aren't the only ones in this situation...
I sincerley hope there is a democratic revolution throughout the UK, PR, more local parliaments and no House of bloody Lords
Independence is our best chance of it happening though, maybe we can inspire you
so -- Mark Carney hasn't ruled out currency union, just restated position of the better together partys (labour/tory/libdem) that for political reasons they don't want one
If Scotland ties its economy to the pound and the Bank of England, then we own you. You can call yourself independent as much as you want, but in reality, you belong to England. Salmond will probably try to save face and have it renamed the Bank of the Isles or something similar.
If any of that were true the currency union is a 100% fact.
i'm sorry did those Scottish Chancellors have separate economic policies for Scotland than England?
No, that's because they were running government policy for the whole UK but at least they would have some understanding on the impact of their decisions on their constituents in Scotland. Under separate states, an English Chancellor wouldn't care what effect their policies had on the economy of Scotland.
We (in this area) voting for Labour, but we have a Tory PM. Stop with the bloody Victim Complex for god's sake. Scotland aren't the only ones in this situation...
We've got a minority SNP government in Holyrood, despite most people (who voted) voting for other parties.
Apparently, not liking the SNP is a rubbish reason to vote no, but not liking the Tories makes it your moral duty to vote yes.:p
total fuel duty is circa 27 bn a year, so clearly the report is only referring to the fuel duty paid by the industry and its subsidiaries
Therein lies your problem, or Salmonds problem. The oil isn't worth anywhere near as much as you seem to think given the only revenues Scotland would get would be from activities taxable in Scotland. So charging for exploration or extraction, or taxing service companies based in Scotland. Basic licence and extraction revenues are worth probably <£10bn a year and if the costs of extraction from the North Sea are too high, companies will stop production/exploration and go elsewhere.
Corporation tax may not help given the big companies aren't registered in Scotland anyway, or could re-incorporate if they prefer the economic climate elsewhere. Salmond may dream of setting low tax rates to attract business but that often only attracts nameplates, not jobs or real revenues. Plus if he makes his mind up about EU membership, Scotland would have to abide by EU tax harmonisation rules anyway.
Scotland would also end up exporting crude and importing refined fuels, which won't help it's trade figures. Being the 14th highest GDP is only possible with a heavy dose of optimism and a large helping of ex-Enron accountants.
so -- Mark Carney hasn't ruled out currency union, just restated position of the better together partys (labour/tory/libdem) that for political reasons they don't want one
It's more economic reasons. SNP hasn't really proposed much in the way of a viable economic or development plan for Scotland, and for the first decade or more Scotland is going to face some massive costs in setting up infrastructure and services currently supplied to it as being part of the UK.
So not unsuprisingly, the UK is rather unlikely to agree to underwrite this spending spree.
I'm also in favour of our own currency, but not being an economist. I'd go with what suits both countries
Why would you want a currency that will likely be worth less than the British pound? For any new currency there won't be a 1=1 or one Scottish pound=one British Pound, it will be less than the British Pound, not saying there won't be an increase in value in the future though. Would you want 2 Scottish Pounds=1 British Pound?
We (in this area) voting for Labour, but we have a Tory PM. Stop with the bloody Victim Complex for god's sake. Scotland aren't the only ones in this situation...
And loads of people had Tory MP's yet a Labour government under the previous administration - should we never have a Tory government just because Scotland doesn't want one
Comments
with the 14th highest GDP in the world?
I agree with a lot of what you say - often do.
I've followed a lot of the threads and links on DS and TV debates etc. Each time I delve behind the presented facts Scotland, to me, gets a fair deal (near as dammit), even a better deal when it comes to an individual's daily life. Right now I'm convinced we are economically better together for Scottish jobs, the currency, borrowing power, oil tax receipts instability, economies of scale, market diversification etc etc I believe we will both suffer if we split now - Scotland proportionally more.
So why ?
I think it's impossible to really understand unless you are one of the few, not the many.
For me, an anglo-scottish mongrel, my heart wants us to stay together. But when I hear the Scottish public's queries and concerns I ask myself so if there weren't such strong economic handcuffs and uncertainties would they prefer to be independent ? My instinct is that a clear majority would say yes, some would be indifferent (politicians are politicians) but only a few would have any real passion to stay.
The more I read about the history of our union and hear from the Scottish voices, the more I think that the union has been one of political convenience - politically we are only fair weather friends. I think independence is inevitable but has to be done through steady devolution and untangling of our economies, probably over decades.
So, on balance, my ideal would be a No now, but Yes later - eventually devo max but with an end date.
I don't envy the Scots on the things they have to weigh up, the politicians have let them down.
This this this
Yes but at the moment you have MP's in parliament that have a say on UK economic policy.
Under Alec Salmond's plans Scotland will have no say on UK economic policy which will directly effect Scotland's economy.
we voted 1 tory MP yet have a tory PM,,,how influential are our MPs on economic policy?
In fact 2 of the last 3 Chancellors have been Scottish and ran UK economic policy (Norman Lamont was Scottish too but let's forget about that). From that to having no control over your currency. Call that progress?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29133217
It's already the second time they made a statement against currency union.
i'm sorry did those Scottish Chancellors have separate economic policies for Scotland than England?
That is at the moment. Inevitably there will be another Labour government at some point.
Anyway Danny Alexander is in the government and has some influence on government policy.
Also there are a lot of Scottish MP's in Labour and they have a lot of influence on Labour policy.
I sincerley hope there is a democratic revolution throughout the UK, PR, more local parliaments and no House of bloody Lords
Independence is our best chance of it happening though, maybe we can inspire you
If any of that were true the currency union is a 100% fact.
Our point is in a currency union neither will a (so called) independent Scotland have separate economic policies for England and Scotland.
will an independent Scotland in a currency union be more or less soveriegn than it is right now?
I'm also in favour of our own currency, but not being an economist. I'd go with what suits both countries
No, that's because they were running government policy for the whole UK but at least they would have some understanding on the impact of their decisions on their constituents in Scotland. Under separate states, an English Chancellor wouldn't care what effect their policies had on the economy of Scotland.
We've got a minority SNP government in Holyrood, despite most people (who voted) voting for other parties.
Apparently, not liking the SNP is a rubbish reason to vote no, but not liking the Tories makes it your moral duty to vote yes.:p
Therein lies your problem, or Salmonds problem. The oil isn't worth anywhere near as much as you seem to think given the only revenues Scotland would get would be from activities taxable in Scotland. So charging for exploration or extraction, or taxing service companies based in Scotland. Basic licence and extraction revenues are worth probably <£10bn a year and if the costs of extraction from the North Sea are too high, companies will stop production/exploration and go elsewhere.
Corporation tax may not help given the big companies aren't registered in Scotland anyway, or could re-incorporate if they prefer the economic climate elsewhere. Salmond may dream of setting low tax rates to attract business but that often only attracts nameplates, not jobs or real revenues. Plus if he makes his mind up about EU membership, Scotland would have to abide by EU tax harmonisation rules anyway.
Scotland would also end up exporting crude and importing refined fuels, which won't help it's trade figures. Being the 14th highest GDP is only possible with a heavy dose of optimism and a large helping of ex-Enron accountants.
It's more economic reasons. SNP hasn't really proposed much in the way of a viable economic or development plan for Scotland, and for the first decade or more Scotland is going to face some massive costs in setting up infrastructure and services currently supplied to it as being part of the UK.
So not unsuprisingly, the UK is rather unlikely to agree to underwrite this spending spree.
Why would you want a currency that will likely be worth less than the British pound? For any new currency there won't be a 1=1 or one Scottish pound=one British Pound, it will be less than the British Pound, not saying there won't be an increase in value in the future though. Would you want 2 Scottish Pounds=1 British Pound?
And loads of people had Tory MP's yet a Labour government under the previous administration - should we never have a Tory government just because Scotland doesn't want one