Horrific dog attack (in Lincoln)

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  • Keiō LineKeiō Line Posts: 12,979
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    macsmurray wrote: »
    Is it fair to muzzle a well trained dog that has never and will never bite? be.
    Is it fair on the individual animal? No it is not.

    However I don't think the law can adequately differentiate between dogs that pose a risk and dogs that don't.
  • bart4858bart4858 Posts: 11,413
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    Random42 wrote: »
    Dogs and children do need to learn to interact with each other.

    No they don't. They have to learn that certain dogs can rip their faces off if they were so minded, and so to always take the utmost precautions. It shouldn't be necessary, but while the public continues its love affair with these pets, they need to be regarded as the most dangerous animals we have in the UK.
  • macsmurraymacsmurray Posts: 2,134
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    edEx wrote: »
    What is this, imaginary suicide bomber kamikaze children now? :D

    Apparently so. Although I have to say that my dog is possibly unique (I'm biased). I would, without hesitation, trust him with my life. There are not many people I would say that of.
  • macsmurraymacsmurray Posts: 2,134
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    Keiō Line wrote: »
    Is it fair on the individual animal? No it is not.

    However I don't think the law can adequately differentiate between dogs that pose a risk and dogs that don't.
    Innocent until proven guilty? No! Just muzzle them all!!!
  • flower 2flower 2 Posts: 13,585
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    Random42 wrote: »
    This could turn into a somewhat circular argument. I could just as easily say the person responsible should have more control over the child. I'm not in a position to chastise a strangers child for hanging off my dog, I have to smile and politely reassure them my dog doesn't bite and she's a softie.

    The outrage is a bit disproportionate when my dog is innocently running around having her freedom, which she is entitled to.

    Incidentally my dog is always with me. Her recall is perfect. Something I'm very proud of.

    As had been already said, we all share these spaces together. And are entitled to do so. If you still feel that's good enough then, again as has been said, there's plenty of places that don't allow dogs.

    Yes I agree, usually stately homes or fenced in areas......shame really that I am not as comfortable letting my children off the lead as dog owners are.

    And, yes, I do like dogs.
  • Keiō LineKeiō Line Posts: 12,979
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    macsmurray wrote: »
    Innocent until proven guilty? No! Just muzzle them all!!!
    I would not really apply the principle of "innocent until proven guilty in a court of law" to animals, however it's a fair summary of my position.

    Remember all i am asking is for dogs to be muzzled, its not a huge thing to ask. Just pop the muzzle on when you go out and take it off when you get back in.

    .
  • edExedEx Posts: 13,460
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    flower 2 wrote: »
    No just children.
    In our family the kids don't make a habit of running into random adults. They run around a lot of course, but not into complete strangers.

    If your grandson does this repeatedly you might want to change his diet.
    Keiō Line wrote: »
    Remember all i am asking is for dogs to be muzzled, its not a huge thing to ask. Just pop the muzzle on when you go out and take it off when you get back in..
    Once again, completely ignoring the point that all these recent dog attacks are happening in people's homes....

    It's up to owner's discretion. The owner knows the dog better than anyone. I see no need to muzzle my dog.
  • macsmurraymacsmurray Posts: 2,134
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    Keiō Line wrote: »
    I would not really apply the principle of "innocent until proven guilty in a court of law" to animals, however it's a fair summary of my position.

    Remember all i am asking is for dogs to be muzzled, its not a huge thing to ask. Just pop the muzzle on when you go out and take it off when you get back in.

    .
    I would apply the principle, because they are the responsibility of the owner, the onus should be on the owner to train the animal properly.

    It may be a cliche, but there's no such thing as a bad dog, just a bad owner.
  • Random42Random42 Posts: 2,290
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    bart4858 wrote: »
    No they don't. They have to learn that certain dogs can rip their faces off if they were so minded, and so to always take the utmost precautions. It shouldn't be necessary, but while the public continues its love affair with these pets, they need to be regarded as the most dangerous animals we have in the UK.

    This kind of comment genuinely does exasperate me. For the sake of trying to get some sense out of your comment I'll do my best to respond without rancor.

    Yes, kids and dogs do need to learn to integrate. Kids and dogs alike have to learn the boundaries and how to behave around each other. Segregation of the two is ridiculous and would only make for problems.

    Yes, the public have got a love affair with pets. This is UK, that's what we do. Like it or not, that's a fact.
  • LyceumLyceum Posts: 3,399
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    Keiō Line wrote: »
    Part of the reason why they should be muzzled. As much as well tell children not to do things they sometimes go against out instructions, Its because they are a child. If dogs are so temperamental they they are likely to attack a child just because they have their ear pulled, I would say that is a reason to have dogs muzzled.

    I appreciate it seems unfair to dogs, but I think the safety of children comes before the rights of dog owners to have such dangerous animals in public.

    So if every time you were out some unsupervised brats came over and pulled your ears, ragged your hair about etc. not just once. But several times every single time you left the house you'd be okay with that all the time and not get annoyed?

    I doubt it. But you assume all dogs should be.

    Fact is my dog puts up with this daily and has never done anything but wag his tail and try to lick the kids hand.

    My dog has a better temperament than every single person I know. Because I can guarantee if a person had to put up with that they'd snap after a few days.

    But dog owners are supposed to go 'oh well. I'll muzzle my dog because some parents can't control their brats'. Sorry. No chance.

    I trust my dog. But would never leave any dog unsupervised with a child. Why? Because kids have zero idea how to treat animals. And should one push my dog to the point he gets so fed up he bites the kid. I have to have my dog put down. I'd prefer that didn't happen.

    My cousin has a 3 year old and a dog. The kid treats the dog like a tag doll. Regularly shoving things up its nose, hitting it and pulling at it. If the dog ever snaps the dog will be blamed. When the thing has faced years of mistreatment because the parent of this child is an idiot and thinks its cute when the kid tries to colour the dogs eye ball in with a felt tip pen (yes I've actually seen the child attempt this) and she won't hear any different.

    It's idiot owners like that who need their dogs taken away before the dog finally has enough and snaps.
  • flower 2flower 2 Posts: 13,585
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    edEx wrote: »
    In our family the kids don't make a habit of running into random adults. They run around a lot of course, but not into complete strangers.

    If your grandson does this repeatedly you might want to change his diet.

    You are being silly now, either that or I didn't make myself clear.

    I meant that, if the owners dog would 'Intervene' if they were being mugged, how would they react if 'any' child accidently ran with exuberance into them (as a one off).
  • Random42Random42 Posts: 2,290
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    flower 2 wrote: »
    Yes I agree, usually stately homes or fenced in areas......shame really that I am not as comfortable letting my children off the lead as dog owners are.

    And, yes, I do like dogs.

    I'm not accusing you of not liking dogs.

    I would however disagree with your comment about it only being limited to stately homes and such like.

    Just as an off the top of my head example, the beach has strict rules about banning dogs during the Summer months when it's obviously at it's most busy. I used to live in Folkestone by the sea and I happily adhered to that rule, seeing the common sense in it. Now, whilst you may not live by or near the sea, I'm just making one of many examples.

    The places are there if you just take the time to look.
  • Mel94Mel94 Posts: 6,568
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    macsmurray wrote: »
    I agree with you. Education is a start. Unfortunately there are ***** in everyday life, when it comes to maltreatment and poor training and socialising of dogs then the owners should be heavily punished if and when the dog attacks.

    I do think it should be mandatory for potential buyers of certain breeds of dogs to show a completion certificate for a training course before they can take the dog with them. At least then, they have some knowledge of how to properly train a dog and if a situation goes a bit wonky then the owner would have the knowledge about how to get the dog back under safe control. I'd leave it up to the officials to decide what breeds though since I don't claim to be an expert on all the different breeds and their genetic characteristics. :p It's a horrible shame that some people don't care enough to learn how to handle their dogs properly, especially when it ends up with someone being hurt as a result. :(
    Keiō Line wrote: »
    I agree, you cant trust a child not to do this. Which is why dogs must be muzzled.

    To be fair though, I personally wouldn't leave a young child to do whatever they want with a dog on their own. I don't think it's very wise to do so because as you said, they can both be unpredictable. Of course they need to interact with each other but if the child is too young to realise that they shouldn't do stuff that may antagonize a dog and that they can be dangerous in some cases, then they should be supervised together. That's my view anyway.
  • macsmurraymacsmurray Posts: 2,134
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    Lyceum wrote: »
    So if every time you were out some unsupervised brats came over and pulled your ears, ragged your hair about etc. not just once. But several times every single time you left the house you'd be okay with that all the time and not get annoyed?

    I doubt it. But you assume all dogs should be.

    Fact is my dog puts up with this daily and has never done anything but wag his tail and try to lick the kids hand.

    My dog has a better temperament than every single person I know. Because I can guarantee if a person had to put up with that they'd snap after a few days.

    But dog owners are supposed to go 'oh well. I'll muzzle my dog because some parents can't control their brats'. Sorry. No chance.

    I trust my dog. But would never leave any dog unsupervised with a child. Why? Because kids have zero idea how to treat animals. And should one push my dog to the point he gets so fed up he bites the kid. I have to have my dog put down. I'd prefer that didn't happen.

    My cousin has a 3 year old and a dog. The kid treats the dog like a tag doll. Regularly shoving things up its nose, hitting it and pulling at it. If the dog ever snaps the dog will be blamed. When the thing has faced years of mistreatment because the parent of this child is an idiot and thinks its cute when the kid tries to colour the dogs eye ball in with a felt tip pen (yes I've actually seen the child attempt this) and she won't hear any different.

    It's idiot owners like that who need their dogs taken away before the dog finally has enough and snaps.

    It's those cases that the bloody owners need to be muzzled, have their dogs taken away and never be allowed to keep pets again.
  • LyceumLyceum Posts: 3,399
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    bart4858 wrote: »
    No they don't. They have to learn that certain dogs can rip their faces off if they were so minded, and so to always take the utmost precautions. It shouldn't be necessary, but while the public continues its love affair with these pets, they need to be regarded as the most dangerous animals we have in the UK.

    In that case all dogs need to be made aware that certain people can kick the living crap out of them and mistreat them to death.

    Humans are the most dangerous animals we have in the UK. By a long long way.
  • macsmurraymacsmurray Posts: 2,134
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    Lyceum wrote: »
    In that case all dogs need to be made aware that certain people can kick the living crap out of them and mistreat them to death.

    Humans are the most dangerous animals we have in the UK. By a long long way.

    Quite. Cruelty by people far surpasses what I've ever seen from any other species.
  • LyceumLyceum Posts: 3,399
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    macsmurray wrote: »
    It's those cases that the bloody owners need to be muzzled, have their dogs taken away and never be allowed to keep pets again.

    I agree. But sadly it doesn't happy that way does it. The dog get to a point where it's had enough and bites someone. Then is treated as a devil dog and the owner an angel.
  • macsmurraymacsmurray Posts: 2,134
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    Lyceum wrote: »
    I agree. But sadly it doesn't happy that way does it. The dog get to a point where it's had enough and bites someone. Then is treated as a devil dog and the owner an angel.

    It's never the kids fault. God knows I've seen some evil little sods in my time.
  • flower 2flower 2 Posts: 13,585
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    Random42 wrote: »
    I'm not accusing you of not liking dogs.

    I would however disagree with your comment about it only being limited to stately homes and such like.

    Just as an off the top of my head example, the beach has strict rules about banning dogs during the Summer months when it's obviously at it's most busy. I used to live in Folkestone by the sea and I happily adhered to that rule, seeing the common sense in it. Now, whilst you may not live by or near the sea, I'm just making one of many examples.

    The places are there if you just take the time to look.

    I understand, but, why should I have to look harder than dog owners?
  • Random42Random42 Posts: 2,290
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    Keiō Line wrote: »
    Part of the reason why they should be muzzled. As much as well tell children not to do things they sometimes go against out instructions, Its because they are a child. If dogs are so temperamental they they are likely to attack a child just because they have their ear pulled, I would say that is a reason to have dogs muzzled.

    I appreciate it seems unfair to dogs, but I think the safety of children comes before the rights of dog owners to have such dangerous animals in public.

    You're going on the very misguided premiss that all dogs are dangerous animals. I have to say I find your view of dogs a tad on the slanted side to say the least :p
  • edExedEx Posts: 13,460
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    flower 2 wrote: »
    You are being silly now, either that or I didn't make myself clear.

    I meant that, if the owners dog would 'Intervene' if they were being mugged, how would they react if 'any' child accidently ran with exuberance into them (as a one off).
    Well socialised dogs judge their owner's reaction in such circumstances. It's all about how the owner has brought the dog up.
  • macsmurraymacsmurray Posts: 2,134
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    flower 2 wrote: »
    I understand, but, why should I have to look harder than dog owners?

    You don't, it's not a case of looking harder, it's just a case of looking. Why is the world full of bloomin drama queens?
  • Random42Random42 Posts: 2,290
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    flower 2 wrote: »
    I understand, but, why should I have to look harder than dog owners?

    You don't have to look harder. The places are out there in their masses. It's far difficult to find dog friendly places to be honest.
  • macsmurraymacsmurray Posts: 2,134
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    edEx wrote: »
    Well socialised dogs judge their owner's reaction in such circumstances. It's all about how the owner has brought the dog up.

    Exactly!! Thank you.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 36,630
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    edEx wrote: »
    What is this, imaginary suicide bomber kamikaze children now? :D

    Do you ever get tired of making up worse case scenarios and extrapolating them out to extremes just to try and prove a point?

    You should read some of their other threads. :D
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