I think it'll be more like 1.6m sadly. Could even be lower than that. Enjoyed Ep 2 don't get me wrong but there's usually a dropoff and see no reason why this one would be different, for all Five has got behind it massively this past week to try and maximise retention.
Important to play the long game with Gotham though I think. I'm not sure it's necessarily true with this one that if viewers leave, they won't come back. For one it's in a very prominent timeslot so UK viewers can't just forget about it and also I think this is a show that will potentially get better and be helped along by word of mouth. Also still has many cards up its sleeve for later in the run such as new characters to be introduced, the Joker for example.
So its very different when Channel 5 drama underperforms compared to Channel 4. "The Mill" criticism fairly unjust when you compare with "Gotham"
So its very different when Channel 5 drama underperforms compared to Channel 4. "The Mill" criticism fairly unjust when you compare with "Gotham"
The Mill lost viewers every single week for about 8 consecutive weeks (albeit with a gap between series in the middle).
If Gotham loses viewers every week for the next 8 weeks I'm not going to sit here and defend it.
If I do, you'll be within your rights to accuse me of what you're trying to accuse me of. But not before then.
There's a difference between rooting for a programme (as is the case with me and Gotham) and allowing that to cloud your judgement of its performance. Despite me wanting it to work if it doesn't I'll be the first to admit it and anyone who has followed my posts over the years will know already that I do this.
I think it'll be more like 1.6m sadly. Could even be lower than that. Enjoyed Ep 2 don't get me wrong but there's usually a dropoff and see no reason why this one would be different, for all Five has got behind it massively this past week to try and maximise retention.
Important to play the long game with Gotham though I think. I'm not sure it's necessarily true with this one that if viewers leave, they won't come back. For one it's in a very prominent timeslot so UK viewers can't just forget about it and also I think this is a show that will potentially get better and be helped along by word of mouth. Also still has many cards up its sleeve for later in the run such as new characters to be introduced, the Joker for example.
Agents of SHIELD will potentially provide a good test case for how likely Gotham is to win back audiences (assuming it'll need to). If the US numbers are anything to go by those aren't going to be pretty numbers for Channel 4 and I suspect they'll demonstrate that comic book fans can be rather unforgiving. When you get these kind of shows right the potential upside is amazing (as AMC and The CW can atest) but when you get them wrong its very hard to win the audience back - just ask NBC about Heroes.
Yorkie I'm wondering how biased your posts are towards "Gotham" though just because you happen to enjoy it. Are you getting its ratings out of perspective, when you said that 2 million was not good enough ratings on a minor channel. Or are you seeing the launch of "Gotham" quite differently from Channel 4 drama. I don't follow how you can apply two sets of opinions on drama to the same rating of 2 million.
Well we are all biased to some extent towards stuff we like and I probably have been. Under 2m may not be good enough for Gotham ( or for C5 ) but I watch all sorts of low rated stuff and will seek it out wherever it is. Not sure I have commented too much on C4 because honestly I am not watching that much on there.
johnnymc, will there be a third series of The Mill do you know? Because it's been awfully quiet on that front. Maybe C4 share my view that the viewers it lost week after week was simply unacceptable and for an expensive homegrown drama it was underperforming. It would be rather difficult to look at its trajectory and conclude otherwise, even if I was more invested in the programme personally or C4's output generally.
Earlier I said that Downton was down week-on-week excluding +1; it wasn't, it was up on both measures. I was looking at last year's DS report. Sorry for any confusion.
The Mill lost viewers every single week for about 8 consecutive weeks (albeit with a gap between series in the middle).
If Gotham loses viewers every week for the next 8 weeks I'm not going to sit here and defend it.
If I do, you'll be within your rights to accuse me of what you're trying to accuse me of. But not before then.
There's a difference between rooting for a programme (as is the case with me and Gotham) and allowing that to cloud your judgement of its performance. Despite me wanting it to work if it doesn't I'll be the first to admit it and anyone who has followed my posts over the years will know already that I do this.
Well maybe if it does fall under 2 million you will be less likely to criticise any quality production like "Gotham" regardless of its figures or channel they happen to be on and appreciate their quality over their diminishing audience numbers.
Well maybe if it does fall under 2 million you will be less likely to criticise any quality production like "Gotham" regardless of its figures or channel they happen to be on and appreciate their quality over their diminishing audience numbers.
That's not really the point of this thread though is it.
Interesting that BBC2 is doing so much better year-on-year. That slipped under the radar a little in all the talk of X Factor, Strictly and Downton.
Simon Reeve's programmes do tend to be popular. 1.0m/4% for the Ottomans programme last year was definitely lower than one might have expected in that slot however.
Well maybe if it does fall under 2 million you will be less likely to criticise any quality production like "Gotham" regardless of its figures or channel they happen to be on and appreciate their quality over their diminishing audience numbers.
Nice thought but it doesn't really work like that in here.
Many shows I've enjoyed over the years have crashed and burned or just not caught on full stop. It's pointless pretending something isn't a failure just because it's something you personally enjoy.
The jury's still out on Gotham but in the case of The Mill there must have been plenty that didn't enjoy it for them to have abandoned it at the rate they did. Quality production or not, the viewers delivered their verdict and I think you have to accept that.
Nice thought but it doesn't really work like that in here.
Many shows I've enjoyed over the years have crashed and burned or just not caught on full stop. It's pointless pretending something isn't a failure just because it's something you personally enjoy.
The jury's still out on Gotham but in the case of The Mill there must have been plenty that didn't enjoy it for them to have abandoned it at the rate they did. Quality production or not, the viewers delivered their verdict and I think you have to accept that.
I never watched "The Mill", it seemed very dark bleak difficult drama and that's why it lost its viewers across the series obviously beacause they couldn't be bothered with either., but I still think that just because I don't like something doesnt mean its not right to support Channel 4 in creating new drama, using our actors and create work over here, rather than cheap reality shows, perhaps they may work with the writer again or he may create something fantastic for them, but at least the channel was attempting to be creative. I didn't watch it couldn't care less if it never comes back again as it was a lot of old dark ye olde stuff in blazing hot summer but I commend the channel for trying something different and do not take delight in seeing its drama fail because it would only mean executives creating more mindless television replacing it, just as if "gotham" doesn't hit the ratings spot.
this is what you said on "the Mill" yorkie, "since when is 2m big ratings for a drama even on a minor channel?" whereas I think we would both agree that was a good launch figure, and indeed for "Gotham" too, I dunno if you change your mind to suit the occasion or please other posters on here rather than stand by your own opinions, but I don't understand how you compared the launch of "gotham" to "the mill", I enjoyed the first episode of "Gotham" personally!
With the official BARB figures we have so far, they've aired in the same week four times.
- The first was the Strictly preview show in the Sunday clash when it beat X Factor 's fourth audition show excluding +1 (9.2m v 8.5m) and only lost to it by 70k with +1 (9.16m v 9.23m). There was no Strictly Saturday show, and with a free run, X Factor won the week with its Saturday edition (9.6m / 10.1m).
- The second week they competed, Strictly's launch proper won the Friday clash beyond question (8.2m v 7.5m inc +1). It also won the Saturday beyond question (9.4m v 9.0m inc +1). There was no Sunday Strictly, and X Factor won the week with its Sunday show, with 9.6m / 10.1m.
- The third week, Strictly won Saturday (9.9m v 8.2m / 8.6m) and X Factor won Sunday (9.6m / 10.0m v 9.4m). It thereby won the week by a margin of 48k, needing +1 to do it (it lost by 351k without +1).
- And as we have seen, in the latest week for which we have official figures, Saturday Strictly beat Saturday and Sunday X Factor even including +1, and I suspect it will in the next lot of figures too, going by the overnights, although it will be fairly close last night (maybe 0.2-0.3m in it).
To avoid arguments, when Strictly beats X Factor including +1 in a week it's a definite victory. It did that for the week ending October 12th. Even though X Factor lost Saturdays its supporters could still claim Sunday was top overall including +1.
They can't with this latest set of BARB figures. If X Factor posts a similar timeshift for the results show on October 19th as it did on October 12th, Strictly should be top overall again.
On the subject of US shows and before I forget since I didn't do my full roundup today: excellent retention for Sky1's new import Forever. Basically flat on the pilot episode, down a mere 1.5% week-on-week to average 933,000 inc. +1. Something of a surprise that as in America it dropped 20% and for its most recent outing averaged only 1.1 in the demo.
this is what you said on "the Mill" yorkie, "since when is 2m big ratings for a drama even on a minor channel?" whereas I think we would both agree that was a good launch figure, and indeed for "Gotham" too, I dunno if you change your mind to suit the occasion or please other posters on here rather than stand by your own opinions, but I don't understand how you compared the launch of "gotham" to "the mill", I enjoyed the first episode of "Gotham" personally!
Well I have no idea in what context I said that about The Mill. The only comment I remember making about Gotham was that I enjoyed it but I thought it would be down this week. Not sure how that is comparing the 2.
Well I have no idea in what context I said that about The Mill. The only comment I remember making about Gotham was that I enjoyed it but I thought it would be down this week. Not sure how that is comparing the 2.
I found it odd that you were so quick to jump on Channel 4 ratings in the summer and condemn "The Mill" but this time around with another drama product thats expensive and important to the channel and then launches with an identical 2 million figure your analysis is completely different and you left Channel 5's drama alone. It seems then that when you analyse the figures it depends on whether you personally enjoy something rather than the quality of the programme. Which I guess is biased towards certain channels and programmes rather than being objective.
On the subject of US shows and before I forget since I didn't do my full roundup today: excellent retention for Sky1's new import Forever. Basically flat on the pilot episode, down a mere 1.5% week-on-week to average 933,000 inc. +1. Something of a surprise that as in America it dropped 20% and for its most recent outing averaged only 1.1 in the demo.
From what I remember (although I admit I haven't checked the re-issued numbers for any Forever adjustments) the second episode of Forever was up on the first in the US. At least in the demo. The drop in total audience is likely down to the first episode getting a massive old viewer boost from Dancing with the Stars that it didn't have for episode two. The collapse in the US didn't come until episode three and four. It is however holding up nicely for Sky. Just a shame they probably won't have any more episodes after the first 13.
Channel 5's weekly reach is still well behind Channel 4's. It's a lot harder for it to get 2.05m. Plus, as mentioned, we haven't seen if Gotham can hold on to more of its launch level than The Mill managed.
I found it odd that you were so quick to jump on Channel 4 ratings in the summer and condemn "The Mill" but this time around with another drama product thats expensive and important to the channel and then launches with an identical 2 million figure your analysis is completely different and you left Channel 5's drama alone. It seems then that when you analyse the figures it depends on whether you personally enjoy something rather than the quality of the programme. Which I guess is biased towards certain channels and programmes rather than being objective.
So your complaint is I did have a go at The Mill ratings which seem to have annoyed you, but didnt comment on Gotham?
Well I hope BBC2 give The Kitchen another go, I really enjoyed it.
Despite being a rip-off of Gogglebox (which I note nobody has picked up on of criticised)
Having actually watched it this evening I'm not sure its fair to describe it as a rip-off of Gogglebox. They're certainly trading on similar ideas and I think its probably fair to say that the BBC probably wouldn't have commissioned this if Gogglebox hadn't been a success for Channel 4 but I'm not sure rip-off is a fair description. As I said earlier I'd also argue that The Kitchen is a much better show and format idea than Gogglebox - a show I've never managed to make it through an entire episode of.
Channel 5's weekly reach is still well behind Channel 4's. It's a lot harder for it to get 2m. Plus, as mentioned, we haven't seen if Gotham can hold on to more of its launch level.
But then we keep hearing how its never compared on a level playing field with the other channels and it's taking over Channel 4 shares and its doing this that and the next, so again its all spin whenever suitable rather than being the rare clear objective facts of some posts and analysis that actually can give me a bit of insight into what the figures really are about and what they mean.
But then we keep hearing how its never compared on a level playing field with the other channels and it's taking over Channel 4 shares and its doing this that and the next, so again its all spin whenever suitable rather than being the rare clear objective facts of some posts and analysis that actually can give me a bit of insight into what the figures really are about and what they mean.
No, it's running Channel 4 close more often, but it's still notable when it's ahead. This may change with Viacom infusions of cash and ideas.
No, it's running Channel 4 close more often, but it's still notable when it's ahead. This may change with Viacom infusions of cash and ideas.
See I didn't realise that, I thought it was just on a level with Channel 4 cos the way it gets bigged up or victimised on here has totally put me off the facts about what's happening with it as a channel really when its probably quite unfair to compare it like for like with Channel 4. This is what I mean about informative unbiased reporting!!!
Comments
So its very different when Channel 5 drama underperforms compared to Channel 4. "The Mill" criticism fairly unjust when you compare with "Gotham"
If Gotham loses viewers every week for the next 8 weeks I'm not going to sit here and defend it.
If I do, you'll be within your rights to accuse me of what you're trying to accuse me of. But not before then.
There's a difference between rooting for a programme (as is the case with me and Gotham) and allowing that to cloud your judgement of its performance. Despite me wanting it to work if it doesn't I'll be the first to admit it and anyone who has followed my posts over the years will know already that I do this.
Well we are all biased to some extent towards stuff we like and I probably have been. Under 2m may not be good enough for Gotham ( or for C5 ) but I watch all sorts of low rated stuff and will seek it out wherever it is. Not sure I have commented too much on C4 because honestly I am not watching that much on there.
Well maybe if it does fall under 2 million you will be less likely to criticise any quality production like "Gotham" regardless of its figures or channel they happen to be on and appreciate their quality over their diminishing audience numbers.
Simon Reeve's programmes do tend to be popular. 1.0m/4% for the Ottomans programme last year was definitely lower than one might have expected in that slot however.
Many shows I've enjoyed over the years have crashed and burned or just not caught on full stop. It's pointless pretending something isn't a failure just because it's something you personally enjoy.
The jury's still out on Gotham but in the case of The Mill there must have been plenty that didn't enjoy it for them to have abandoned it at the rate they did. Quality production or not, the viewers delivered their verdict and I think you have to accept that.
I never watched "The Mill", it seemed very dark bleak difficult drama and that's why it lost its viewers across the series obviously beacause they couldn't be bothered with either., but I still think that just because I don't like something doesnt mean its not right to support Channel 4 in creating new drama, using our actors and create work over here, rather than cheap reality shows, perhaps they may work with the writer again or he may create something fantastic for them, but at least the channel was attempting to be creative. I didn't watch it couldn't care less if it never comes back again as it was a lot of old dark ye olde stuff in blazing hot summer but I commend the channel for trying something different and do not take delight in seeing its drama fail because it would only mean executives creating more mindless television replacing it, just as if "gotham" doesn't hit the ratings spot.
this is what you said on "the Mill" yorkie, "since when is 2m big ratings for a drama even on a minor channel?" whereas I think we would both agree that was a good launch figure, and indeed for "Gotham" too, I dunno if you change your mind to suit the occasion or please other posters on here rather than stand by your own opinions, but I don't understand how you compared the launch of "gotham" to "the mill", I enjoyed the first episode of "Gotham" personally!
To avoid arguments, when Strictly beats X Factor including +1 in a week it's a definite victory. It did that for the week ending October 12th. Even though X Factor lost Saturdays its supporters could still claim Sunday was top overall including +1.
They can't with this latest set of BARB figures. If X Factor posts a similar timeshift for the results show on October 19th as it did on October 12th, Strictly should be top overall again.
Well I have no idea in what context I said that about The Mill. The only comment I remember making about Gotham was that I enjoyed it but I thought it would be down this week. Not sure how that is comparing the 2.
I found it odd that you were so quick to jump on Channel 4 ratings in the summer and condemn "The Mill" but this time around with another drama product thats expensive and important to the channel and then launches with an identical 2 million figure your analysis is completely different and you left Channel 5's drama alone. It seems then that when you analyse the figures it depends on whether you personally enjoy something rather than the quality of the programme. Which I guess is biased towards certain channels and programmes rather than being objective.
Despite being a rip-off of Gogglebox (which I note nobody has picked up on of criticised)
So your complaint is I did have a go at The Mill ratings which seem to have annoyed you, but didnt comment on Gotham?
Well I never said I was perfect.
BBC dont rip off programs - they tastefully reimagine them.
But then we keep hearing how its never compared on a level playing field with the other channels and it's taking over Channel 4 shares and its doing this that and the next, so again its all spin whenever suitable rather than being the rare clear objective facts of some posts and analysis that actually can give me a bit of insight into what the figures really are about and what they mean.
No, it's running Channel 4 close more often, but it's still notable when it's ahead. This may change with Viacom infusions of cash and ideas.
See I didn't realise that, I thought it was just on a level with Channel 4 cos the way it gets bigged up or victimised on here has totally put me off the facts about what's happening with it as a channel really when its probably quite unfair to compare it like for like with Channel 4. This is what I mean about informative unbiased reporting!!!
Soap Officials:
Coronation Street:
Mon: 8.64m [+1.01m] / 8.33m [+870k]
Wed: 8.07m [+1.11m]
Fri: 8.08m [+1.09m] / 7.63m [+1.05m]
Avg.: 8.15m, +1.03m.
EastEnders:
Mon: 7.76m [+720k]
Tue: 6.75m [+950k]
Thu: 6.92m [+570k]
Fri: 7.09m [+620k]
Avg.: 7.13m, +715k.
Source: Barb
Figures inc.HD and exc.+1.