Well, Hitler make all his electoral promises true he made when he was in power(except of the one- winning a war), while in Russia, whole population was scarred, and living standards were incredibly low while they loved Stalin, indeed.
Nowadays, people blame Yeltsin and Gorbachev for the fall of the great power, while people, who have never lived during Stalin, consider him as an "effective manager, whose assistants were to blame for all mistakes"
But don't say that the most of people were killed, only people "who know too much", creative people, writers, poets all people who doesn't fit into stalinist ideology, and some innocent ones too.
Most of people were scared. Just scared and nothing else really
But don't say that the most of people were killed, only people "who know too much", creative people, writers, poets all people who doesn't fit into stalinist ideology, and some innocent ones too.
Most of people were scared. Just scared and nothing else really
Perhaps that's a problem of past glories for any ex-empire, 'the good old days'. The Soviet Union has lost a lot of client states over the years, some even joining NATO. If the Soviet Union had got people to WANT to stay part of it instead of threats of having too, things might be different. Gorbachev was OK-ish in our eyes. Yeltsin liked booze. Putin is suspicious.
Perhaps that's a problem of past glories for any ex-empire, 'the good old days'. The Soviet Union has lost a lot of client states over the years, some even joining NATO. If the Soviet Union had got people to WANT to stay part of it instead of threats of having too, things might be different. Gorbachev was OK-ish in our eyes. Yeltsin liked booze. Putin is suspicious.
Well, locals tend to blame leaders for great tragedies.
USSR could have collapsed even later, actually, as that system is too huge and unsustainable.
Gorbachev just boosted the natural process.
Don't forget that most of Russians lived in so-called communalkas, where lots of families shared one toilet, one room, one kitchen, etc
so, it was really easy to report each other to the KGB
On the other hand, i've been always been interested in the personality of Stalin which was incredibly unique.
On one hand, he was a murderer(however, Peter the Great was even more brutal than Stalin really, as Peter killed more people by his own hands, than Stalin) , on the other hand he was a very charming person and could actually charm people by good manners, nice sense of humour, these positive points of georgian character.
I play a World War 2 based PC game made by a Russian company and the GLORIOUS RUSSIA mentality is still very evident, as is anti German sentiment and the developers clearly cannot distinguish between "German" and "Nazi"
This is reflected by the massive Russian player base too.
anyway, today I went to Victory Park to take some shots around. Especially I like monuments which reflect every aspect of the war(Allies, Holocaust, Victory, in general)
In addition, Mosque, Synagogue, Orthodox Church in one place symbolises multicultural nature of victory http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1438979&page=25
Our American cousins are usually quick to tell us that "if it wasn't for us you would all be speaking German" to which I always reply,
"actually if it wasn't for the Russian people who died in their MILLIONS to buy us time, as well as the bravery of the RAF pilots who defeated the Nazi Luftwaffe BEFORE the USA was even in the war, we would all be speaking German"
from all the nations involved in WW2 the Russians suffered by far the greatest losses.
COUNTRY CASUALTIES
Soviet Union 23,954,000
China 15,000,000
Germany 7,728,000
Poland 5,720,000
Japan 2,700,000
India 2,087,000
Yugoslavia 1,027,000
Rumania 833,000
Hungary 580,000
France 567,600
Greece 560,000
Italy 456,000 Great Britain 449,800
United States 418,500
Czechoslovakia 345,000
Netherlands 301,000
Austria 123,700
Finland 97,000
Belgium 86,100
Canada 45,300
Australia 40,500
Bulgaria 25,000
New Zealand 11,900
South Africa 11,900
Norway 9,500
Spain 4,500
Denmark 3,200
TOTAL: 63,185,500
when compared to the COMBINED casualties of the UK and the USA it's not hard to understand why the Russian people remember the war in the way they do.
I am in no WAY 'belittling' the horrors the suffering or the sacrifices made by all nations involved in the conflict, but what the Russian people endured far exceeds anything other nations experienced,
Thank you from the bottom of my heart for this post. There are too few people who understand that fact.
Once again, my first post shows extremely ignorant opinion of some nationalists and cultists on the war, and WWII, as such.
Russian Victory Cult=ignorant, absolutely biassed, mostly nationalist(not patriotic, of course) and non-objective system of values, which is widely wide-spread among many yobs, narrow-minded people naive people who believe in biassed ideologies, around the country.
My mistake was that I forgot to mention it, actually.
Your mistake, young man is that you don't understand a lot of things which happened in the past. As I said before, you are a young boy and don't appreciate the history of your nation and its people. I do admire your (albeit limited) command of the English language. It is far better than my Russian, I am ashamed to admit.
Please think before you post some of your comments in future. You insult yourself and your fellow men and women; especially those who are older than you.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart for this post. There are too few people who understand that fact.
Your mistake, young man is that you don't understand a lot of things which happened in the past. As I said before, you are a young boy and don't appreciate the history of your nation and its people. I do admire your (albeit limited) command of the English language. It is far better than my Russian, I am ashamed to admit.
Please think before you post some of your comments in future. You insult yourself and your fellow men and women; especially those who are older than you.
No, I appreciate and love history, and has always loved it since I was a very little boy, and know it quite well, as well as i'm about to get a historical degree quite soon.
Tell me, please, what exactly was so insulting in my posts?
You still haven't told me yet. And which posts?
. And I know that at the age of consumerism, market economy, relatively high level of life compared to the past, lack of patriotism, people, especially young ones, just don't understand how tragic it was. It was a great tragedy.
but you know what, I just showed how narrow-minded views could be.
I just don't want this nationalist and ignorant cult to be spread.
You know, it's hard, even for adult person, to explain the importance of WWII, its legacy.
History is very controversial, the most important thing that should be done, to educate people, to provide people with diversity of facts, just to make them think about it.
I WANT to know more, i RECOGNIZE that i don't know much about the war, I want to be EDUCATED.
People should learn new things for the rest of his life.
Our American cousins are usually quick to tell us that "if it wasn't for us you would all be speaking German" to which I always reply,
"actually if it wasn't for the Russian people who died in their MILLIONS to buy us time, as well as the bravery of the RAF pilots who defeated the Nazi Luftwaffe BEFORE the USA was even in the war, we would all be speaking German"
The number of Russians dying speaks of a fighting force that was incompetent and out of its element against Nazi forces. Any victories of significance that the Soviets had against the Nazis were down to Nazi failures, not Soviet successes. The number of deaths on one side does't equal military competence or success, more often than not it is quite the opposite.
Hitter changing Air Force goals and tactics in the bombardment of the UK doesn't equal the Nazi Air Force being "defeated." That's a ridiculous stretch, especially if you somehow think the UK would have been able to defeat the rest of Germany on the continent or prevent an ultimate invasion of the UK.
Your kind of response is typical British or European anti-American WWII revisionism. Even putting aside military participation during the war, the UK and the Soviet Union received the bulk of American aid worth approximately $640,000,000,000 that America poured into Europe. The fact is, without that aid and without America's military participation in both the European and Pacific theaters the UK and the Soviet Union would have lost to the Nazis. It is ignorant, denial and delusional to think otherwise.
I don't want to see people wearing St.George Ribbons, while not knowing any facts about the war.
I don't want to see people shouting "Thanks to vets for the victory" while he, in fact, just use the Victory Day as the reason to booze with his friends.
I want people to be open-minded, to be free from any ideology
Most people should REALLY show their honour and celebrate this holiday, not to act like chavs and yobs,
No, I appreciate and love history, and has always loved it since I was a very little boy, and know it quite well, as well as i'm about to get a historical degree quite soon.
It was confusing at first, but it's become clear to me you do have a good understanding.
Anastasia333 is being too hard on you, perhaps judging you by the OP alone, instead of by your subsequent explanations.
I like your threads levaniX, and find your perspectives from Russia interesting.
It was confusing at first, but it's become clear to me you do have a good understanding.
Anastasia333 is being too hard on you, perhaps judging you by the OP alone, instead of by your subsequent explanations.
I like your threads levaniX, and find your perspectives from Russia interesting.
Thank you, that's a relief, I felt like someone just got me wrong really.
Didn't understand what I wanted to express. (once again, can't sort out my thoughts properly)
Well, also don't forget about extremely strict discipline, when all "traitors" were about to be killed and even their wives and family, and particularly Order No.227
I recently read up about Order 227 after discovering a great song about it, by an Israeli band. Their singer is called Alexei, so I guess he's probably of Russian descent. I also assume there's a pretty good reason why his family didn't stay in Russia. Desert - Lament For Soldier's Glory (Order 227)
The number of Russians dying speaks of a fighting force that was incompetent and out of its element against Nazi forces. Any victories of significance that the Soviets had against the Nazis were down to Nazi failures, not Soviet successes. The number of deaths on one side does't equal military competence or success, more often than not it is quite the opposite.
Whilst I would support the notion that alot of losses on the Soviet sides were either self inflicted or down to the way the USSR fought - I wouldn't ascribe to the fact that the Axis Forces in the USSR failed to win. They had a very hard task to do, but they were also out thought and out fought in many places.
Hitter changing Air Force goals and tactics in the bombardment of the UK doesn't equal the Nazi Air Force being "defeated." That's a ridiculous stretch,
Well asides from it was largely Kesselring which advocated an all out attack on London and all Hitler did was relax the ban on attacking London - the Luftwaffe was defeated in the Battle of Britian.
The RAF inflicted staggering losses on the Luftwaffe. At the end of the Battle of Britain, Fighter Command was stronger than it ever had been and the Luftwaffe had lost 1800 aircraft. Fighter Command inflicted a kill ratio of 1.8:1. To quote Stephen Bungay - "The Luftwaffe never came close". The luftwaffe's fighter strength declined by 30% and it's bomber strength by 25%.
To quote Bungay again, the RAF dealt the Luftwaffe a body blow from which, as Osterkamp ruefully observed, it never recovered, and it heralded a feckless decline. Despite it's impressive victories in Russia in 1941, was never to be as strong relative to its enemies as it was in July 1940.
It's often said that everybody makes mistakes and whoever makes the least wins. You can claim that the Wehrmacht was never really defeated, it just failed to win. Just like France failed to stop the Germans in the Battle of France. At the end of the day, it's all the same.
especially if you somehow think the UK would have been able to defeat the rest of Germany on the continent or prevent an ultimate invasion of the UK.
I don't think anybody thinks that the UK alone could have beaten back Germany on the continent, let alone has stated that. However could Germany have successfully invaded Britain? Well I know it's part of an ongoing discussion on this forum, but lets say it's doubtful that a German invasion could have ever succeeded. Even allowing for Germany ignoring the USSR for a prolonged period.
Your kind of response is typical British or European anti-American WWII revisionism. Even putting aside military participation during the war, the UK and the Soviet Union received the bulk of American aid worth approximately $640,000,000,000 that America poured into Europe. The fact is, without that aid and without America's military participation in both the European and Pacific theaters the UK and the Soviet Union would have lost to the Nazis. It is ignorant, denial and delusional to think otherwise.
Lend Lease and other support shouldn't be understated but it's also ignorant and delusional to forget that Germany had huge distances to surmount in the USSR and by reaching Moscow its logistical train was already at its limit. Whilst I don't think that the USSR could defeat Germany without the US, I don't think Germany could realistically defeat the USSR.
On the other hand, i've been always been interested in the personality of Stalin which was incredibly unique.
On one hand, he was a murderer(however, Peter the Great was even more brutal than Stalin really, as Peter killed more people by his own hands, than Stalin) , on the other hand he was a very charming person and could actually charm people by good manners, nice sense of humour, these positive points of georgian character.
To be fair to Stalin, he didn't murder me personally.
I just want to show you that the victory in WWII in Russia is not just a great event, but a cult
It's not surprising. There were more casualties in single cataclysmic battles on the Eastern front, than the combined British and American casualties of the entire West European campaign. Even after D-day, 90 percent of Germany's forces were fighting in the East. The Western front was a side show. The Soviet Union basically won the European war, and D-day was essentially the final nail in a coffin that was already being laid to rest.
Comments
Nowadays, people blame Yeltsin and Gorbachev for the fall of the great power, while people, who have never lived during Stalin, consider him as an "effective manager, whose assistants were to blame for all mistakes"
Most of people were scared. Just scared and nothing else really
Perhaps that's a problem of past glories for any ex-empire, 'the good old days'. The Soviet Union has lost a lot of client states over the years, some even joining NATO. If the Soviet Union had got people to WANT to stay part of it instead of threats of having too, things might be different. Gorbachev was OK-ish in our eyes. Yeltsin liked booze. Putin is suspicious.
Well, locals tend to blame leaders for great tragedies.
USSR could have collapsed even later, actually, as that system is too huge and unsustainable.
Gorbachev just boosted the natural process.
so, it was really easy to report each other to the KGB
On the other hand, i've been always been interested in the personality of Stalin which was incredibly unique.
On one hand, he was a murderer(however, Peter the Great was even more brutal than Stalin really, as Peter killed more people by his own hands, than Stalin) , on the other hand he was a very charming person and could actually charm people by good manners, nice sense of humour, these positive points of georgian character.
This is reflected by the massive Russian player base too.
In addition, Mosque, Synagogue, Orthodox Church in one place symbolises multicultural nature of victory
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1438979&page=25
Thank you from the bottom of my heart for this post. There are too few people who understand that fact.
Your mistake, young man is that you don't understand a lot of things which happened in the past. As I said before, you are a young boy and don't appreciate the history of your nation and its people. I do admire your (albeit limited) command of the English language. It is far better than my Russian, I am ashamed to admit.
Please think before you post some of your comments in future. You insult yourself and your fellow men and women; especially those who are older than you.
No, I appreciate and love history, and has always loved it since I was a very little boy, and know it quite well, as well as i'm about to get a historical degree quite soon.
Tell me, please, what exactly was so insulting in my posts?
You still haven't told me yet. And which posts?
but you know what, I just showed how narrow-minded views could be.
I just don't want this nationalist and ignorant cult to be spread.
You know, it's hard, even for adult person, to explain the importance of WWII, its legacy.
History is very controversial, the most important thing that should be done, to educate people, to provide people with diversity of facts, just to make them think about it.
I WANT to know more, i RECOGNIZE that i don't know much about the war, I want to be EDUCATED.
People should learn new things for the rest of his life.
The number of Russians dying speaks of a fighting force that was incompetent and out of its element against Nazi forces. Any victories of significance that the Soviets had against the Nazis were down to Nazi failures, not Soviet successes. The number of deaths on one side does't equal military competence or success, more often than not it is quite the opposite.
Hitter changing Air Force goals and tactics in the bombardment of the UK doesn't equal the Nazi Air Force being "defeated." That's a ridiculous stretch, especially if you somehow think the UK would have been able to defeat the rest of Germany on the continent or prevent an ultimate invasion of the UK.
Your kind of response is typical British or European anti-American WWII revisionism. Even putting aside military participation during the war, the UK and the Soviet Union received the bulk of American aid worth approximately $640,000,000,000 that America poured into Europe. The fact is, without that aid and without America's military participation in both the European and Pacific theaters the UK and the Soviet Union would have lost to the Nazis. It is ignorant, denial and delusional to think otherwise.
I don't want to see people shouting "Thanks to vets for the victory" while he, in fact, just use the Victory Day as the reason to booze with his friends.
I want people to be open-minded, to be free from any ideology
Most people should REALLY show their honour and celebrate this holiday, not to act like chavs and yobs,
It was confusing at first, but it's become clear to me you do have a good understanding.
Anastasia333 is being too hard on you, perhaps judging you by the OP alone, instead of by your subsequent explanations.
I like your threads levaniX, and find your perspectives from Russia interesting.
Thank you, that's a relief, I felt like someone just got me wrong really.
Didn't understand what I wanted to express. (once again, can't sort out my thoughts properly)
I recently read up about Order 227 after discovering a great song about it, by an Israeli band. Their singer is called Alexei, so I guess he's probably of Russian descent. I also assume there's a pretty good reason why his family didn't stay in Russia. Desert - Lament For Soldier's Glory (Order 227)
Whilst I would support the notion that alot of losses on the Soviet sides were either self inflicted or down to the way the USSR fought - I wouldn't ascribe to the fact that the Axis Forces in the USSR failed to win. They had a very hard task to do, but they were also out thought and out fought in many places.
Well asides from it was largely Kesselring which advocated an all out attack on London and all Hitler did was relax the ban on attacking London - the Luftwaffe was defeated in the Battle of Britian.
The RAF inflicted staggering losses on the Luftwaffe. At the end of the Battle of Britain, Fighter Command was stronger than it ever had been and the Luftwaffe had lost 1800 aircraft. Fighter Command inflicted a kill ratio of 1.8:1. To quote Stephen Bungay - "The Luftwaffe never came close". The luftwaffe's fighter strength declined by 30% and it's bomber strength by 25%.
To quote Bungay again, the RAF dealt the Luftwaffe a body blow from which, as Osterkamp ruefully observed, it never recovered, and it heralded a feckless decline. Despite it's impressive victories in Russia in 1941, was never to be as strong relative to its enemies as it was in July 1940.
It's often said that everybody makes mistakes and whoever makes the least wins. You can claim that the Wehrmacht was never really defeated, it just failed to win. Just like France failed to stop the Germans in the Battle of France. At the end of the day, it's all the same.
I don't think anybody thinks that the UK alone could have beaten back Germany on the continent, let alone has stated that. However could Germany have successfully invaded Britain? Well I know it's part of an ongoing discussion on this forum, but lets say it's doubtful that a German invasion could have ever succeeded. Even allowing for Germany ignoring the USSR for a prolonged period.
Lend Lease and other support shouldn't be understated but it's also ignorant and delusional to forget that Germany had huge distances to surmount in the USSR and by reaching Moscow its logistical train was already at its limit. Whilst I don't think that the USSR could defeat Germany without the US, I don't think Germany could realistically defeat the USSR.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbHSmv1POIU&list=FL3s32Cuymx5ru6aJ-KtZtWw&index=1995
MAY BE OFFENSIVE TO STALINISTS
To be fair to Stalin, he didn't murder me personally.
the only paranoid was stalin
It's not surprising. There were more casualties in single cataclysmic battles on the Eastern front, than the combined British and American casualties of the entire West European campaign. Even after D-day, 90 percent of Germany's forces were fighting in the East. The Western front was a side show. The Soviet Union basically won the European war, and D-day was essentially the final nail in a coffin that was already being laid to rest.