Richard lll : The King in the Carpark C4 Monday

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  • johartukjohartuk Posts: 11,320
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    I think originally C4 had the idea of making a mockumentary out of this

    they had a slightly nutty woman looking for a lost king

    a presenter that IMO could not be taken seriously

    I honestly think that C4 would have given us a nice gory story about the evil prince with excerpts of the dig not finding anything

    but, they did find something and when it looked like the nutty woman was right C4 didnt know how to treat the story

    I really think C4 started out with the agenda of making a documentary about a load of conspiracy theorists/fantasists (a bit like UFO believers) but got caught when the findings of these people were real

    what could have been a good story (a group of peoples belief that a missing king could be found) was just turned into a bit of a damp squib

    the reconstruction of the face even fell flat after the way C4 built up to it even though the reconstruction was done by IMO the best possible expert
    Caroline Wilkinson has reconstructed faces for Meet the Ancestors, History Cold Case and even Crime Watch as well as the faces of Bach and St Nicolas
    I got to the point where I wanted to see the reconstruction but without the presenter or Phillippa there as her reactions were very distracting and I could not take the presenter seriously

    Exactly. They thought it was going to be a documentary about an eccentric woman looking for a lost King and nothing was going to come of it. Hence the editing ("Let's show Philippa's more 'over emotional' moments and portray her as being a few sandwiches short of a picnic!") and style of the documentary. Unfortunately for them, the King was found, so the "let's all laugh at the mad woman who led us on a wild goose chase!" tone of the piece felt all wrong.
  • BathshebaBathsheba Posts: 6,654
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    milotic12 wrote: »
    Am I the only one who wants them to dig up all the old Kings and Queens and have them do a photo fit of them all! Would love to see how some famous historic beauty's really looked like Anne Boleyn etc.

    I would like to see this too. Anne Boleyn is under the chapel of St Peter ad Vincula in the Tower of London.
  • curmycurmy Posts: 4,723
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    This is a short piece from Wikipedia about who else is buried in St Peter Ad Vincula ,

    What I don't understand is why more aristocratic families havn't had their relatives bodies removed from that sad thittle chapel.
    The Chapel is perhaps best known as the burial place of some of the most famous Tower prisoners, including three queens: Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard, the second and fifth wives of Henry VIII, respectively, and Lady Jane Grey, who reigned for nine days in 1553. George Boleyn, brother of Anne, was also buried here after his execution in 1536, as were Edmund Dudley and Sir Richard Empson, tax collectors for Henry VII, and Guildford Dudley, husband to Lady Jane Grey, in February 1554, after being executed on Tower Green. Thomas More and John Fisher, who incurred the wrath of Henry VIII, were subsequently executed, and later canonised as martyrs by the Roman Catholic Church, are also buried here; Philip Howard, a third saint who suffered under the Tudors, was also buried here for a time before his body was relocated to Arundel.[1] In addition, Henry VIII's minister, Thomas Cromwell, executed in 1540, was buried here.[3]
  • curmycurmy Posts: 4,723
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    This is a short piece from Wikipedia about who else is buried in St Peter Ad Vincula ,

    What I don't understand is why more aristocratic families havn't had their relatives bodies removed from that sad little chapel.[/QUOTE]
    The Chapel is perhaps best known as the burial place of some of the most famous Tower prisoners, including three queens: Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard, the second and fifth wives of Henry VIII, respectively, and Lady Jane Grey, who reigned for nine days in 1553. George Boleyn, brother of Anne, was also buried here after his execution in 1536, as were Edmund Dudley and Sir Richard Empson, tax collectors for Henry VII, and Guildford Dudley, husband to Lady Jane Grey, in February 1554, after being executed on Tower Green. Thomas More and John Fisher, who incurred the wrath of Henry VIII, were subsequently executed, and later canonised as martyrs by the Roman Catholic Church, are also buried here; Philip Howard, a third saint who suffered under the Tudors, was also buried here for a time before his body was relocated to Arundel.[1] In addition, Henry VIII's minister, Thomas Cromwell, executed in 1540, was buried here.[3]
  • starrystarry Posts: 12,434
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    I thought we enjoyed having less of a pompous tone to documentaries (unlike in America were they have these stern voice overs)? We don't have to be talked to like we are schoolchildren. So when we don't get that we should be happy I think.
  • JulessJuless Posts: 147
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    I was so disappointed with this program.

    When you think how fascinating Time Team could make a dig where they only found a couple of pieces of pot. Here they had the most amazing find to reveal, but it all got lost under the jokey style of the presenter and the emotional woman.

    Hopefully someone will make a more considered documentary with a decent presenter which puts the find into historical context.
  • FluxCapacitorFluxCapacitor Posts: 1,231
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    johartuk wrote: »
    Exactly. They thought it was going to be a documentary about an eccentric woman looking for a lost King and nothing was going to come of it. Hence the editing ("Let's show Philippa's more 'over emotional' moments and portray her as being a few sandwiches short of a picnic!") and style of the documentary. Unfortunately for them, the King was found, so the "let's all laugh at the mad woman who led us on a wild goose chase!" tone of the piece felt all wrong.

    I wouldn't say "unfortunately for them"... yes, they will have made a conscious decision to portray Philippa in that way, but most of the editing will have been done AFTER the production team discovered it actually was the King's body, so they will have been fully aware of the outcome throughout the edit process.

    I think it was a clever choice to be honest - it's a much better story if the eccentric woman who everyone laughed at actually turns out to be right against all the odds!
  • Irma BuntIrma Bunt Posts: 1,847
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    MrGiles2 wrote: »
    Thomas More refused to take of oath of supremacy which entailed King Henry VIII to proclaim himself Head of the Church of England.

    He was beheaded on Tower Hill and his remains lie within the walls of the little chapel of St. Peter ad Vincula which stands just off Tower Green within the Tower. I visited that little chapel a few years ago and it was a moving experience. There are other remains of a number of men and at least five women who were executed for treason and still lie there to this day.

    He was a tiresome man. And, unlike the benign figure presented to us in A Man For All Seasons, a nasty piece of work, too. When "heretics" were being tortured, he liked to get his hands dirty. He also put his family through Hell because of his principles. Watching A Man For All Seasons, I don't feel sympathy or admiration for him, just irritation. Just sign the bloody piece of paper and keep your mouth shut.

    As for the Princes in the Tower, one can't help feeling that if Richard III is to be given a proper funeral, it's more than he afforded them...
  • barbelerbarbeler Posts: 23,827
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    starry wrote: »
    Funny looking at the start of this thread with people saying the program would be crap. It was actually great, by everyone involved. You don't need expensive license fee money to make a good documentary.
    I would have thought that if anything justified the BBC licence fee, then this was it.

    How crap were those archaeologists? They didn't find a single post hole.
  • curmycurmy Posts: 4,723
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    As for the Princes in the Tower, one can't help feeling that if Richard III is to be given a proper funeral, it's more than he afforded them...

    Let's hope one day the Specialists are able to take DNA samples from the urn supposedly containing the little Princes' ashes .
  • CadivaCadiva Posts: 18,409
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    Irma Bunt wrote: »
    As for the Princes in the Tower, one can't help feeling that if Richard III is to be given a proper funeral, it's more than he afforded them...

    IF he had anything at all to do with their deaths, which is still not (and unlikely to ever) be proved conclusively one way or the other.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 961
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    barbeler wrote: »
    I would have thought that if anything justified the BBC licence fee, then this was it.

    How crap were those archaeologists? They didn't find a single post hole.

    Tony and the time team should of done it. They can find holes within holes and all in 3 days.

    Oh and sorry havent read a lot of replies but i just sat jaw agape at the woman sticking Richards flag over his box of bones and then chucking it in the car. Couldnt make it up:D
  • Saltydog1955Saltydog1955 Posts: 4,134
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    barbeler wrote: »
    I would have thought that if anything justified the BBC licence fee, then this was it.

    How crap were those archaeologists? They didn't find a single post hole.

    This was Channel 4, not the BBC, so the licence fee doesn't come into it.
  • gomezzgomezz Posts: 44,507
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    Not quite true.
  • Saltydog1955Saltydog1955 Posts: 4,134
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    gomezz wrote: »
    Not quite true.

    How so?

    Please explain. :confused:
  • annelieseanneliese Posts: 755
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    Should have let Phillipa have a few minutes alone with that head, would be nothing left
  • Richard1960Richard1960 Posts: 20,336
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    anneliese wrote: »
    Should have let Phillipa have a few minutes alone with that head, would be nothing left

    :D:D LOL.
  • DuncanEmeryDuncanEmery Posts: 415
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    really enjoyed the programme - didn't fall asleep while watching it which is unusual for me - I always used to sleep through meet the ancestors so they go something right!
  • CythnaCythna Posts: 3,102
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    lundavra wrote: »
    I don't think she was upset that it did not fit with the idea of him having now deformity, it was just the shock of it fitting with descriptions of him. They said after the programme that Scoliosis is not a disability, it is a condition. Usain Bolt has it and does not seem to do too bad on the track!
    They only have the mtDNA result, they are still waiting for the Y-DNA which takes longer.

    .

    It was the build up of lots of bits of evidence which all fitted with it being him, I saw someone trying to claim it was wrong purely because the arrowhead turned out to be a Roman nail!

    I doubt Usain Bolt's scoliosis is as pronounced as Richard's! I notice they said that he would have been five foot eight without the scoliosis, but would have lost inches because of it. I have severe scoliosis myself, and have known several people with it, and Richard's looked quite bad, although because it is a sideways twist it wouldn't stick out much. It would cause him breathing difficulties in later life, and his body in movement would almost certainly have a twist to it, with one shoulder higher than the other.
  • Dai ClustDai Clust Posts: 369
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    I can't believe that they were allowed to dig up a local authority/social services car park like that. Where on earth did the poor hard working staff park during their work hours (i.e. 11-12 and 2-3 (2:30 on a Friday))?
  • academiaacademia Posts: 18,225
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    divingbboy wrote: »
    She's a bit out there..............

    Yes, she rather spoiled the programme by reducing me to hysterical laughter. The 'R' in the |Car park (philippa weeps); the disappointment at the curved spine (so not all Tudor propaganda was propaganda); the 'This is not the face of a tyrant'. And the tears and emoting at every possible opportunity.
    :D:D:D:D
  • Dai ClustDai Clust Posts: 369
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    Richard III is truly blessed to have those Ricardians fight his cause. Intrigued by that , is there such a society as the Henrians whose raison d'etre is that Henry VIII was actually a peace loving loyal serial monogamist?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 6,126
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    Dai Clust wrote: »
    I can't believe that they were allowed to dig up a local authority/social services car park like that. Where on earth did the poor hard working staff park during their work hours (i.e. 11-12 and 2-3 (2:30 on a Friday))?

    A man who speaks the truth
  • RyJaRyJa Posts: 900
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    Dai Clust wrote: »
    Richard III is truly blessed to have those Ricardians fight his cause. Intrigued by that , is there such a society as the Henrians whose raison d'etre is that Henry VIII was actually a peace loving loyal serial monogamist?

    I think not :)
  • LibitinaLibitina Posts: 2,430
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    academia wrote: »
    Yes, she rather spoiled the programme by reducing me to hysterical laughter. The 'R' in the |Car park (philippa weeps); the disappointment at the curved spine (so not all Tudor propaganda was propaganda); the 'This is not the face of a tyrant'. And the tears and emoting at every possible opportunity.
    :D:D:D:D

    I was really looking forward to watching this, but she totally ruined it for me and I didn't finish the programme. Stupid woman! :mad:
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