No. It is not normal and shouldn't be passed off as normal. An attitude like yours is part of the problem.
Exactly. We LET that become normal in western society. People who aren't from Europe or the USA are often shocked at that kind of behaviour when they see it.
Until 18, you need to handle alcohol well, at 16 your body simply can't handle it, as it's not ready for it.
The problem is, a 16 year-old getting drunk like that is showing a lack of self-respect, and poor judgement.
The sad fact of the matter is that the rapists made exactly the same mistakes as I've stated above.
The worst part is those who stood by and watched and filmed, etc. It is a systemic failure of parenting and a lax moral attitude that is championed in society. It's the entitlement syndrome - the 16 year-old reckons she can go out an 'party hard' like an older, more experienced adult, and two older teens who reckon that they are enhancing and proving their own sexual prowess, racing to get another 'green light notch'.
They're just kids, is what the parents will say - sadly they are right.
Everyone involved in this sad incident has gained their 'life experience' stripes, and it will affect them forever and not in a positive way.
Which is a more flowery way of expressing what Serena Williams has tried to say, I believe. Unfortunately, being good at tennis doesn't make her especially bright and I'm sure her life experiences have been badly skewed also.
Why does no one feel sorry for her? Because it's easy to take the moral high-ground when you haven't got money or talent, relatively speaking.
I don't feel sorry for Serena because she has taken a morally repellent stance which regards rape as less wrong if the victim has behaved in a way that renders her more vulnerable to them.
Your word "mistakes" when describing the rapists actions sets similar alarm bells ringing. The girl getting drunk was a mistake. The rapists raping her was not a mistake, it was an evil and selfish act.
No. It is not normal and shouldn't be passed off as normal. An attitude like yours is part of the problem.
What problem is that? What happened to this girl is thankfully relatively rare, whether she was drinking or not is not the problem the boys actions were.
Normal just means the thing that is the most common occurrence, not whether it is right or wrong, 16 year olds have been getting drunk at parties ever since the teenage party became a thing, that includes your parents and in some cases grandparents, and they always will.
Now whether it is a good idea to get drunk at 16 is another matter entirely, but people do and shouting moral outrage at it isn't going to stop it happening.
Chastising the girl for drinking is the problem, she's 16 and at a party of course she is going to drink, sexually assaulting someone is the abnormal behaviour.
I'm sure a lot of teenage lads don't go out and gang rape girls who they have accompanied for the evening but hey, let's gloss over that and just talk about the victim's drinking.
What problem is that? What happened to this girl is thankfully relatively rare, whether she was drinking or not is not the problem the boys actions were.
Normal just means the thing that is the most common occurrence, not whether it is right or wrong, 16 year olds have been getting drunk at parties ever since the teenage party became a thing, that includes your parents and in some cases grandparents, and they always will.
Now whether it is a good idea to get drunk at 16 is another matter entirely, but people do and shouting moral outrage at it isn't going to stop it happening.
Chastising the girl for drinking is the problem, she's 16 and at a party of course she is going to drink, sexually assaulting someone is the abnormal behaviour.
The fact is it's not normal and thankfully so. It's not about moral outrage or what not. Otherwise, we may have a situation where you and other naysayers think a 16 year old should be let off rape charges because they were drunk at the time of the offense. What if both victim and accused where 16 and drunk at the time? That's normal, is it?
The fact is it's not normal and thankfully so. It's not about moral outrage or what not. Otherwise, we may have a situation where you and other naysayers think a 16 year old should be let off rape charges because they were drunk at the time of the offense. What if both victim and accused where 16 and drunk at the time? That's normal, is it?
Sorry, this wasn't replying to me but I felt compelled to reply...
What the actual ???
Who on earth ever said that being drunk was an excuse for rape? Rape is rape whether the protagonist has had 15 pints of stella or a glass of water.
That aside, being drunk, exclusively, is a lesser 'crime' than rape. But someone who was drunk when they raped is just as culpable as someone who is sober.
Being drunk is not to be encouraged.
Rape, and in particular, gangrape, is a serious, hideous crime and act of evil.
Exactly. We LET that become normal in western society. People who aren't from Europe or the USA are often shocked at that kind of behaviour when they see it.
Until 18, you need to handle alcohol well, at 16 your body simply can't handle it, as it's not ready for it.
Well, it's fantastic that we're hypothesising about the immorality of drinking whilst somehow letting the fact that a girl who was drunk was gang raped somehow become less important.
I'm sure a lot of teenage lads don't go out and gang rape girls who they have accompanied for the evening but hey, let's gloss over that and just talk about the victim's drinking.
Quite.
This moralising on the girl's drinking disgusts me.
The girl being drunk did not cause the rape to happen. Not did the rapists being drunk cause it to happen.
As for the general idea of a 16 year old drinking, yes it is normal. People don't magically go from not being able to tolerate alcohol the day before their 18th birthday, to handling it the day after. Nor do most people magically understand how much alcohol is sensible for them. It's as low process, and a learning curve. Most people make mistakes on that journey. But it's just that, a mistake. It doesn't give anyone the right to moralise, or - in this case - take a hideous advantage of the girl's state to allow them to abuse and rape her with greater ease.
This moralising on the girl's drinking disgusts me.
The girl being drunk did not cause the rape to happen. Not did the rapists being drunk cause it to happen.
As for the general idea of a 16 year old drinking, yes it is normal. People don't magically go from not being able to tolerate alcohol the day before their 18th birthday, to handling it the day after. Nor do most people magically understand how much alcohol is sensible for them. It's as low process, and a learning curve. Most people make mistakes on that journey. But it's just that, a mistake. It doesn't give anyone the right to moralise, or - in this case - take a hideous advantage of the girl's state to allow them to abuse and rape her with greater ease.
Yes.
& getting hideously drunk at 16 - or younger - is usually a method of learning about sensible drinking in the future - a rite of passage if you like.
Most are lucky enough not to be gang raped of course.
But the gang rape is actually a little subtext to some on here; the fact that the girl was DRUNK is DISGUSTING. The rape is probably because she was so drunk:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Who on earth ever said that being drunk was an excuse for rape? Rape is rape whether the protagonist has had 15 pints of stella or a glass of water.
I'm not talking about this case but I think we need to be careful when talking about drink. Obviously if a man gets a woman so drunk that she can't make a decision it's rape but what about a couple that go down the pub, get very drunk, come home and have sex? Can we really say that everytime a wife or girlfriend has sex while drunk that she's been raped?
I'm not talking about this case but I think we need to be careful when talking about drink. Obviously if a man gets a woman so drunk that she can't make a decision it's rape but what about a couple that go down the pub, get very drunk, come home and have sex? Can we really say that everytime a wife or girlfriend has sex while drunk that she's been raped?
If it's not consensual - yes.
Also, why are you putting the onus on the women. Who don't rape???
I don't feel sorry for Serena because she has taken a morally repellent stance which regards rape as less wrong if the victim has behaved in a way that renders her more vulnerable to them.
Your word "mistakes" when describing the rapists actions sets similar alarm bells ringing. The girl getting drunk was a mistake. The rapists raping her was not a mistake, it was an evil and selfish act.
I don't think she meant that or condone's rape at all. while her comments may have be naive and stupid, i don't think she meant the girl deserved to get rape. I think she meant to say the girl should have been more careful.
Thats not to say if she was not drunk she would not have been raped, but maybe she'd have an easier time fighting them off.
Like i said Williams comments were silly and naive, but i don't think she meant it in a horrible way.
Just goes to show you really have to be careful what you say.
I don't think she meant that or condone's rape at all. while her comments may have be naive and stupid, i don't think she meant the girl deserved to get rape. I think she meant to say the girl should have been more careful.
...which is still a hideously abhorrent thing to say. The girl did NOTHING WRONG. She didn't trip over, she didn't drop her purse, she was RAPED by a gang of people.
When that girl goes to her parents, teacher, doctor or police officer distraught and utterly abused would you have them say "Oh well, that's a shame... but you should have been more careful."
Thats not to say if she was not drunk she would not have been raped, but maybe she'd have an easier time fighting them off.
Fighting off 2 large football players? Okay then.
Women are raped all the time who are stone cold sober and they are still unable to fight off their attacker. Many freeze with fear, many fear fighting will only make it worse (as the abuser may get more violent or make the ordeal last longer), many simply are physically unable to.
When are people going to get it through their heads THIS GIRL DID NOTHING WRONG. It was not in ANY WAY her fault. She was raped.
...which is still a hideously abhorrent thing to say. The girl did NOTHING WRONG. She didn't trip over, she didn't drop her purse, she was RAPED by a gang of people.
When that girl goes to her parents, teacher, doctor or police officer distraught and utterly abused would you have them say "Oh well, that's a shame... but you should have been more careful."
Fighting off 2 large football players? Okay then.
Women are raped all the time who are stone cold sober and they are still unable to fight off their attacker. Many freeze with fear, many fear fighting will only make it worse (as the abuser may get more violent or make the ordeal last longer), many simply are physically unable to.
When are people going to get it through their heads THIS GIRL DID NOTHING WRONG. It was not in ANY WAY her fault. She was raped.
This thread really makes me despair for humanity.
Well said and I can't believe so many people see it any other way
Not taking away from the seriousness of the situation, but why are we interviewing a tennis player about a rape case?
She wasn't. It's from a much longer Rollling Stone interview with/about her, nothing to do wih this case. It just happened that a news bulletin about the case came on tv during the course of the day and she voluntarily made those comments to the interviewer.
I don't think she meant that or condone's rape at all. while her comments may have be naive and stupid, i don't think she meant the girl deserved to get rape. I think she meant to say the girl should have been more careful.
Thats not to say if she was not drunk she would not have been raped, but maybe she'd have an easier time fighting them off.
Like i said Williams comments were silly and naive, but i don't think she meant it in a horrible way.
Just goes to show you really have to be careful what you say.
Definitely. Some will jump on anything that might come across as being insensitive. Sometimes people will say things that will come across as being the wrong thing to say.
Definitely. Some will jump on anything that might come across as being insensitive. Sometimes people will say things that will come across as being the wrong thing to say.
Definitely. Some will jump on anything that might come across as being insensitive. Sometimes people will say things that will come across as being the wrong thing to say.
And sometimes people will say something which IS the wrong thing to say.
Nice to see that some people's only form of debate and defence is to say that people are being 'over sensitive' and expressing 'mock outrage'.
If saying that gang rape is vile and that there is no excuse for it is professing mock outrage and being over sensitive then I hold my hands up and accept the charge.
Perhaps I should stick to saying that getting drunk is the abyss of the breakdown of society and people who get drunk only have themselves to blame if they get raped. After all, if a man can't contain himself and someone drunk presents themselves, well, it's hardly his fault is it???
Comments
Exactly. We LET that become normal in western society. People who aren't from Europe or the USA are often shocked at that kind of behaviour when they see it.
Until 18, you need to handle alcohol well, at 16 your body simply can't handle it, as it's not ready for it.
Hear hear. It's anything but normal.
It's sad folks think it is.
I don't feel sorry for Serena because she has taken a morally repellent stance which regards rape as less wrong if the victim has behaved in a way that renders her more vulnerable to them.
Your word "mistakes" when describing the rapists actions sets similar alarm bells ringing. The girl getting drunk was a mistake. The rapists raping her was not a mistake, it was an evil and selfish act.
What problem is that? What happened to this girl is thankfully relatively rare, whether she was drinking or not is not the problem the boys actions were.
Normal just means the thing that is the most common occurrence, not whether it is right or wrong, 16 year olds have been getting drunk at parties ever since the teenage party became a thing, that includes your parents and in some cases grandparents, and they always will.
Now whether it is a good idea to get drunk at 16 is another matter entirely, but people do and shouting moral outrage at it isn't going to stop it happening.
Chastising the girl for drinking is the problem, she's 16 and at a party of course she is going to drink, sexually assaulting someone is the abnormal behaviour.
Agreed. I'm sure a lot of 16-year-olds out there that go to parties don't drink until they're not sure what day it is.
The fact is it's not normal and thankfully so. It's not about moral outrage or what not. Otherwise, we may have a situation where you and other naysayers think a 16 year old should be let off rape charges because they were drunk at the time of the offense. What if both victim and accused where 16 and drunk at the time? That's normal, is it?
Sorry, this wasn't replying to me but I felt compelled to reply...
What the actual ???
Who on earth ever said that being drunk was an excuse for rape? Rape is rape whether the protagonist has had 15 pints of stella or a glass of water.
That aside, being drunk, exclusively, is a lesser 'crime' than rape. But someone who was drunk when they raped is just as culpable as someone who is sober.
Being drunk is not to be encouraged.
Rape, and in particular, gangrape, is a serious, hideous crime and act of evil.
I could well believe this.
Quite.
This moralising on the girl's drinking disgusts me.
The girl being drunk did not cause the rape to happen. Not did the rapists being drunk cause it to happen.
As for the general idea of a 16 year old drinking, yes it is normal. People don't magically go from not being able to tolerate alcohol the day before their 18th birthday, to handling it the day after. Nor do most people magically understand how much alcohol is sensible for them. It's as low process, and a learning curve. Most people make mistakes on that journey. But it's just that, a mistake. It doesn't give anyone the right to moralise, or - in this case - take a hideous advantage of the girl's state to allow them to abuse and rape her with greater ease.
Yes.
& getting hideously drunk at 16 - or younger - is usually a method of learning about sensible drinking in the future - a rite of passage if you like.
Most are lucky enough not to be gang raped of course.
But the gang rape is actually a little subtext to some on here; the fact that the girl was DRUNK is DISGUSTING. The rape is probably because she was so drunk:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
I'm not talking about this case but I think we need to be careful when talking about drink. Obviously if a man gets a woman so drunk that she can't make a decision it's rape but what about a couple that go down the pub, get very drunk, come home and have sex? Can we really say that everytime a wife or girlfriend has sex while drunk that she's been raped?
If it's not consensual - yes.
Also, why are you putting the onus on the women. Who don't rape???
I don't think she meant that or condone's rape at all. while her comments may have be naive and stupid, i don't think she meant the girl deserved to get rape. I think she meant to say the girl should have been more careful.
Thats not to say if she was not drunk she would not have been raped, but maybe she'd have an easier time fighting them off.
Like i said Williams comments were silly and naive, but i don't think she meant it in a horrible way.
Just goes to show you really have to be careful what you say.
...which is still a hideously abhorrent thing to say. The girl did NOTHING WRONG. She didn't trip over, she didn't drop her purse, she was RAPED by a gang of people.
When that girl goes to her parents, teacher, doctor or police officer distraught and utterly abused would you have them say "Oh well, that's a shame... but you should have been more careful."
Fighting off 2 large football players? Okay then.
Women are raped all the time who are stone cold sober and they are still unable to fight off their attacker. Many freeze with fear, many fear fighting will only make it worse (as the abuser may get more violent or make the ordeal last longer), many simply are physically unable to.
When are people going to get it through their heads THIS GIRL DID NOTHING WRONG. It was not in ANY WAY her fault. She was raped.
This thread really makes me despair for humanity.
Well said and I can't believe so many people see it any other way
She wasn't. It's from a much longer Rollling Stone interview with/about her, nothing to do wih this case. It just happened that a news bulletin about the case came on tv during the course of the day and she voluntarily made those comments to the interviewer.
Definitely. Some will jump on anything that might come across as being insensitive. Sometimes people will say things that will come across as being the wrong thing to say.
With mock outrage in some instances.
And sometimes people will say something which IS the wrong thing to say.
If saying that gang rape is vile and that there is no excuse for it is professing mock outrage and being over sensitive then I hold my hands up and accept the charge.
Perhaps I should stick to saying that getting drunk is the abyss of the breakdown of society and people who get drunk only have themselves to blame if they get raped. After all, if a man can't contain himself and someone drunk presents themselves, well, it's hardly his fault is it???
In some people's opinion. Not everyone says the right thing when being asked for their opinion on a sensitive subject.