I have a feeling that the end of season cliffhanger (I'm sure there will be one) is the reveal that Ramse is The Witness/Leader of the Army of the 12 Monkeys.
I had been thinking that they were going to make (an older) Cole the Witness but now they've given Ramse a reason to want the Virus infected future to remain I'm guessing it will be him.
Thats a good theory and hope it is something like that and that his boring cliché of a backstory isn't just filler to drag out the storyline. The one thing that really grates on me is why they don't try and recruit the 2015 version of Jones into their team. She'd be an asset and it has been stated that work on the time machine had already begun in 2013 so its not like she'd be that hard to convince
Ramse is absolutely ruining this show for me. And now it looks like Corwin's theory above might be right since Ramse has ended up in 1987 where it all began along with that thing Jennifer gave him from her own version of the 12 monkeys
He is neither ruining, or making the show for me. He is however doing what's right; he doesn't want the timeline to change, though in a weird twist of irony, he's no better than that mad old woman (can't remember her name now). Both are trying to shape the future for their children, rather than for humanity as a whole.
He is neither ruining, or making the show for me. He is however doing what's right; he doesn't want the timeline to change, though in a weird twist of irony, he's no better than that mad old woman (can't remember her name now). Both are trying to shape the future for their children, rather than for humanity as a whole.
I just really dislike his character. Also I don't think any main character in the future is doing whats right per se. All of their motivations are selfish. Cole wants to erase himself because of his past, Jones wants a second chance with her daughter, while Ramse wants a first chance with his son. All of them are doing what they do for the sake of one or two individuals rather than doing it to save all the people of the past or future
The thing Jennifer gave Ramse, she tore that from around the neck of the tall guy with the hat, does that mean the tall guy with the hat (do we know his name, I'm rubbish at names) is in fact an older Ramse, since he is now stuck living from 1987 onwards. I thought, as Ramse disappeared back in time, that maybe the scientists had reset the machine to send him a few thousand years back to the himalayas and he was the source but obviously that would have been far too quick and simple!
The thing Jennifer gave Ramse, she tore that from around the neck of the tall guy with the hat, does that mean the tall guy with the hat (do we know his name, I'm rubbish at names) is in fact an older Ramse, since he is now stuck living from 1987 onwards. I thought, as Ramse disappeared back in time, that maybe the scientists had reset the machine to send him a few thousand years back to the himalayas and he was the source but obviously that would have been far too quick and simple!
Ramsey is not the tall guy no. The tall guy meets Cole for the first time in 1987. I still think the 12 monkeys are a red herring and have no part in the virus, as in the movie.
The big question now is, what deal has has Cassie's boyfriend done with the strange woman to keep Cassie alive?
I think now in 87 Cole will confront the tall guy who is returning from the Himalayas withe the source remains, which will cause Cole to blackout again because Cole is the source remains when he is eventually beamed further back in time. Ramse will save Cole from the tall guy and they will be buddies and a team once more, stranded in 1987 going after the tall guy.
I have a feeling that the end of season cliffhanger (I'm sure there will be one) is the reveal that Ramse is The Witness/Leader of the Army of the 12 Monkeys.
I had been thinking that they were going to make (an older) Cole the Witness but now they've given Ramse a reason to want the Virus infected future to remain I'm guessing it will be him.
That, that makes a let of sense :O
Although, if it was him, wouldn't he know when Cole will splinter and warn his group.
All the jumping times is starting to drive me mad, are we going to find that the frozen body is not ancient but if fact someone from the future.
I said that a few posts ago, the frozen remains are the original source of the virus, my theory was that the remains are James Cole, because in the scene in the night room when Cole got close to the remains, he got terrible head pains. He gets the pains when he is close to a paradox or another self from a different time line.
Is Ramse now completely redundant? He's taken the Team Virus as far as he can because now he has no knowledge of what happens next really since their gone past the point of Cole's jumps (except when he was in the ruins of Czechnya in 2017). He can't really lead the group now. He just has to wait for Cassie to record the message and thats it. I guess the season finale will be a showdown between Ramse and Cole with Ramse being killed off.
Also they could have at least had Olivia and the tall guy mentioning they had treated Ramse to a few facelifts over the years as a thank you for helping them over the 28 years where he hadnt aged a day despite being continuously beaten in prison for about a decade on top of that.
There has to be more time travel involved at some point as how does Olivia know to write letters to Ramse in prison in the 1980's?
Also they could have at least had Olivia and the tall guy mentioning they had treated Ramse to a few facelifts over the years as a thank you for helping them over the 28 years where he hadnt aged a day despite being continuously beaten in prison for about a decade on top of that.
Neither of them seemed to age either in the 20 years we saw pass for them.
I think Oliva did say something (can't workout what the first part is) about Ramse defying time.
I said that a few posts ago, the frozen remains are the original source of the virus, my theory was that the remains are James Cole, because in the scene in the night room when Cole got close to the remains, he got terrible head pains. He gets the pains when he is close to a paradox or another self from a different time line.
I was expecting something to happen when the remains were wheeled past Cole in the Night club but there was nothing. Admittedly Cole was already in a great deal of pain from the knife wound so may not have felt the headaches.
I believe Cole will make one more time trip at some point which will kill him and leave his body a 1000 years in the past (either that or it's Ramse's body).
Speaking of the body it looks like Cole messed up big time. Until Cole told Goines that there was a virus in the body Goines wasn't planning on buying it and if he hadn't bought it then the plague might not have happened.
There has to be more time travel involved at some point as how does Olivia know to write letters to Ramse in prison in the 1980's?
Neither of them seemed to age either in the 20 years we saw pass for them.
I think Oliva did say something (can't workout what the first part is) about Ramse defying time.
I was expecting something to happen when the remains were wheeled past Cole in the Night club but there was nothing. Admittedly Cole was already in a great deal of pain from the knife wound so may not have felt the headaches.
I believe Cole will make one more time trip at some point which will kill him and leave his body a 1000 years in the past (either that or it's Ramse's body).
Speaking of the body it looks like Cole messed up big time. Until Cole told Goines that there was a virus in the body Goines wasn't planning on buying it and if he hadn't bought it then the plague might not have happened.
BIB - I doubt they have the capacity to go back a millenium since even getting Ramse and Cole to 1987 required using the power of Spearhead's core to maximum capacity
I was thinking that since Ramse said Cassie must live to record the message to ensure himself and Cole are set on their time travelling path, and since Cole knows Ramse is the witness, then surely Cole should tell Cassie not to record the message so that Jone's never hears it and therefore never sends Cole or Ramse back thus ensuring Ramse can't lead the baddies.
Also about 5 or 6 episodes ago (when aaron saw the truth about Cole for himself) didn't Cassie die after the raid on the Night Room? This led to an alternate reality where Ramse was the leader of the West 7......... but if Cassie died which gave rise to that timeline then that means she never recorded the message, which means Jones never heard it, which means neither Cole nor Ramse could have went back in time to tell either Leland or Olivia and Tall guy about the Plague, which means it should never have happened because Ramse was supposedly instrumental in making sure the plague occurred
So Ramse is going to purposely make sure the virus is released to ensure that 6 billion die, to ensure that he fathers an illegitimate son, whom he will have very limited contact with 30 years in the future!
Ramse sat in a Japanese jail for 8 years doing nothing and talking to nobody and taking a kicking every day from a large Japanese guy for what reason? Then he gets him killed by 20 other Japanese prisoners simply by saying the guy is a grass!
So the tall guy is nothing but a messenger boy doing what Olivia tells him, that's a let down!
Way too much travelling back and forward in this show just to get us back to exactly where we started!
I thought that was a cracking episode but then I was on a high from TWD finale!
I was so convinced Ramse would end up as the tall pale man (I think that's how he's listed on imdb!), whoever called it that he would be the witness, good shout! Who can say how anyone would react if their child was at risk and as for them not ageing between 1987 and 2015, to be honest I'd rather that than a load of dodgy makeup, Leland Goines' wig in 1987 was bad enough!
So now in theory Cole is trapped in 2015, no tether to get him back to the future. I got the impression from Cassie's reaction when he saw her in 2017 that they had become intimate, looks like she'll be nursing him back to health, again!
I have no idea who the greyish looking people were but Jones and co. always knew Deacon would try to come back and finish them.
I know its a horrible thought but why didnt Cassie or Cole ever even consider killing the child Ramse of 2015 to prevent him from ever becoming the Witness?
Also has Jones of 2043 always known Cole since 2015 or has this just happened as a result of messing with the timeline too much. I only ask because after the Pilot, Jones told Cole to stay away from Cassie after killing Leland because her role was done.....but if Jones had always known both Cole and Cassie since 2015 then she would know that this wasn't true since she went on that road trip with Cassie.
I think that she always knew. We saw her looking through her collection of stuff at the card from the garage that Cassie and young Jones went to to find young Cole, plus when she talked to the other scientist she was 100% certain that Cole was alive and stuck in 2015.
It's another one of the many predestination paradoxes in the series.
Also about 5 or 6 episodes ago (when aaron saw the truth about Cole for himself) didn't Cassie die after the raid on the Night Room? This led to an alternate reality where Ramse was the leader of the West 7......... but if Cassie died which gave rise to that timeline then that means she never recorded the message, which means Jones never heard it, which means neither Cole nor Ramse could have went back in time to tell either Leland or Olivia and Tall guy about the Plague, which means it should never have happened because Ramse was supposedly instrumental in making sure the plague occurred
That aborted alternate timeline really makes no sense, as you said before.
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Anyone think we'll actually get an explanation for Jose and Olivia not aging?
I think that she always knew. We saw her looking through her collection of stuff at the card from the garage that Cassie and young Jones went to to find young Cole, plus when she talked to the other scientist she was 100% certain that Cole was alive and stuck in 2015.
It's another one of the many predestination paradoxes in the series.
Something that is still bugging me is this:
That aborted alternate timeline really makes no sense, as you said before.
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Anyone think we'll actually get an explanation for Jose and Olivia not aging?
BIB -well Jone's father mentioned that Jone's quantum whatchamacallit showed great promise in slowing human ageing on a molecular (or cellular?) level so maybe they have something like that. Or like I said a few posts back, the writers should just throw in a scene where Olivia mentions that her wealthy corporation are paying for Ramse's facelifts (and her own too)
I think that she always knew. We saw her looking through her collection of stuff at the card from the garage that Cassie and young Jones went to to find young Cole, plus when she talked to the other scientist she was 100% certain that Cole was alive and stuck in 2015.
I noticed that scene with the card too but I was wondering if it only appeared there now because Cassie bringing past Jones into the fold has only happened for the first time ever and the business card has now appeared in her collection as part of a very slightly modified timeline.
Also its really bugging me that since all the main players are actually alive in one or more forms in 2015, why doesn't one of them try and eliminate or inform one of the others to try and achieve the future they want. For example Future Cole could kill Past Ramse or Future Ramse could kill Past Cole or kill Past Jones.
I could understand if maybe Cole needs Ramse to survive up as far as 2043 because Ramse maybe saved his life one or more times during their 28 year friendship but what I don't understand is why Cole didn't tell Past Jones to maybe get rid of Ramse on the sly at some point after he is no longer needed e.g. maybe have Whitley kill Ramse in 2043 while Cole is splintered to Czechnya or Haiti or something and then if Cole gets back (assuming the future is unchanged), just tell him scavengers or the West 7 did it
the writers should just throw in a scene where Olivia mentions that her wealthy corporation are paying for Ramse's facelifts (and her own too)
Have I missed something about Ramse ageing? When do people think he has not aged or should be looking older?
If some people are thinking that the Ramse from the first 8 episodes is the same one who went back to 1997, then became the witness, and then lived all the years pretending to Cole that he knew nothing, that is obviously wrong, they are from different realities, different people.
Have I missed something about Ramse ageing? When do people think he has not aged or should be looking older?
If some people are thinking that the Ramse from the first 8 episodes is the same one who went back to 1997, then became the witness, and then lived all the years pretending to Cole that he knew nothing, that is obviously wrong, they are from different realities, different people.
The ageing thing is that the Ramse in 2015, the adult one, looks identical to when he went back to 1987, no visible ageing. The same with the woman, was it Olivia? I thought it was Sophia but I'm hopeless with names. And indeed the tall pale man. Somehow they've all lived for 28 years without changing.
Comments
Thats a good theory and hope it is something like that and that his boring cliché of a backstory isn't just filler to drag out the storyline. The one thing that really grates on me is why they don't try and recruit the 2015 version of Jones into their team. She'd be an asset and it has been stated that work on the time machine had already begun in 2013 so its not like she'd be that hard to convince
I just really dislike his character. Also I don't think any main character in the future is doing whats right per se. All of their motivations are selfish. Cole wants to erase himself because of his past, Jones wants a second chance with her daughter, while Ramse wants a first chance with his son. All of them are doing what they do for the sake of one or two individuals rather than doing it to save all the people of the past or future
Ramsey is not the tall guy no. The tall guy meets Cole for the first time in 1987. I still think the 12 monkeys are a red herring and have no part in the virus, as in the movie.
The big question now is, what deal has has Cassie's boyfriend done with the strange woman to keep Cassie alive?
I think now in 87 Cole will confront the tall guy who is returning from the Himalayas withe the source remains, which will cause Cole to blackout again because Cole is the source remains when he is eventually beamed further back in time. Ramse will save Cole from the tall guy and they will be buddies and a team once more, stranded in 1987 going after the tall guy.
Either way, I'm totally engrossed in this now, Monday mornings have become a battle over whether to watch this or TWD first!
That, that makes a let of sense :O
Although, if it was him, wouldn't he know when Cole will splinter and warn his group.
Also they could have at least had Olivia and the tall guy mentioning they had treated Ramse to a few facelifts over the years as a thank you for helping them over the 28 years where he hadnt aged a day despite being continuously beaten in prison for about a decade on top of that.
There has to be more time travel involved at some point as how does Olivia know to write letters to Ramse in prison in the 1980's?
Neither of them seemed to age either in the 20 years we saw pass for them.
I think Oliva did say something (can't workout what the first part is) about Ramse defying time.
I was expecting something to happen when the remains were wheeled past Cole in the Night club but there was nothing. Admittedly Cole was already in a great deal of pain from the knife wound so may not have felt the headaches.
I believe Cole will make one more time trip at some point which will kill him and leave his body a 1000 years in the past (either that or it's Ramse's body).
Speaking of the body it looks like Cole messed up big time. Until Cole told Goines that there was a virus in the body Goines wasn't planning on buying it and if he hadn't bought it then the plague might not have happened.
BIB - I doubt they have the capacity to go back a millenium since even getting Ramse and Cole to 1987 required using the power of Spearhead's core to maximum capacity
I was thinking that since Ramse said Cassie must live to record the message to ensure himself and Cole are set on their time travelling path, and since Cole knows Ramse is the witness, then surely Cole should tell Cassie not to record the message so that Jone's never hears it and therefore never sends Cole or Ramse back thus ensuring Ramse can't lead the baddies.
Also about 5 or 6 episodes ago (when aaron saw the truth about Cole for himself) didn't Cassie die after the raid on the Night Room? This led to an alternate reality where Ramse was the leader of the West 7......... but if Cassie died which gave rise to that timeline then that means she never recorded the message, which means Jones never heard it, which means neither Cole nor Ramse could have went back in time to tell either Leland or Olivia and Tall guy about the Plague, which means it should never have happened because Ramse was supposedly instrumental in making sure the plague occurred
Ramse sat in a Japanese jail for 8 years doing nothing and talking to nobody and taking a kicking every day from a large Japanese guy for what reason? Then he gets him killed by 20 other Japanese prisoners simply by saying the guy is a grass!
So the tall guy is nothing but a messenger boy doing what Olivia tells him, that's a let down!
Way too much travelling back and forward in this show just to get us back to exactly where we started!
I was so convinced Ramse would end up as the tall pale man (I think that's how he's listed on imdb!), whoever called it that he would be the witness, good shout! Who can say how anyone would react if their child was at risk and as for them not ageing between 1987 and 2015, to be honest I'd rather that than a load of dodgy makeup, Leland Goines' wig in 1987 was bad enough!
So now in theory Cole is trapped in 2015, no tether to get him back to the future. I got the impression from Cassie's reaction when he saw her in 2017 that they had become intimate, looks like she'll be nursing him back to health, again!
Wow, what a great episode, by far the best one. This one had what some others episodes were missing, real emotion.
Quite a few loose ends tied up, loved the Jennifer in the boardroom scene.
But the big question is, who the hell are the freaks at the end?
I know its a horrible thought but why didnt Cassie or Cole ever even consider killing the child Ramse of 2015 to prevent him from ever becoming the Witness?
Also has Jones of 2043 always known Cole since 2015 or has this just happened as a result of messing with the timeline too much. I only ask because after the Pilot, Jones told Cole to stay away from Cassie after killing Leland because her role was done.....but if Jones had always known both Cole and Cassie since 2015 then she would know that this wasn't true since she went on that road trip with Cassie.
It's another one of the many predestination paradoxes in the series.
Something that is still bugging me is this:
That aborted alternate timeline really makes no sense, as you said before.
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Anyone think we'll actually get an explanation for Jose and Olivia not aging?
BIB -well Jone's father mentioned that Jone's quantum whatchamacallit showed great promise in slowing human ageing on a molecular (or cellular?) level so maybe they have something like that. Or like I said a few posts back, the writers should just throw in a scene where Olivia mentions that her wealthy corporation are paying for Ramse's facelifts (and her own too)
I noticed that scene with the card too but I was wondering if it only appeared there now because Cassie bringing past Jones into the fold has only happened for the first time ever and the business card has now appeared in her collection as part of a very slightly modified timeline.
Also its really bugging me that since all the main players are actually alive in one or more forms in 2015, why doesn't one of them try and eliminate or inform one of the others to try and achieve the future they want. For example Future Cole could kill Past Ramse or Future Ramse could kill Past Cole or kill Past Jones.
I could understand if maybe Cole needs Ramse to survive up as far as 2043 because Ramse maybe saved his life one or more times during their 28 year friendship but what I don't understand is why Cole didn't tell Past Jones to maybe get rid of Ramse on the sly at some point after he is no longer needed e.g. maybe have Whitley kill Ramse in 2043 while Cole is splintered to Czechnya or Haiti or something and then if Cole gets back (assuming the future is unchanged), just tell him scavengers or the West 7 did it
Have I missed something about Ramse ageing? When do people think he has not aged or should be looking older?
If some people are thinking that the Ramse from the first 8 episodes is the same one who went back to 1997, then became the witness, and then lived all the years pretending to Cole that he knew nothing, that is obviously wrong, they are from different realities, different people.
The ageing thing is that the Ramse in 2015, the adult one, looks identical to when he went back to 1987, no visible ageing. The same with the woman, was it Olivia? I thought it was Sophia but I'm hopeless with names. And indeed the tall pale man. Somehow they've all lived for 28 years without changing.