Scottish independence: let's have an honest debate (P3)

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  • Analogue110Analogue110 Posts: 3,817
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    Aidy wrote: »
    It's desperate the way the yes supporters on here trumpet everything...bigging up any news as some kind of game changer when the reality is so much different.

    Yes. But not to be outdone here's History Repeating, a brilliant track by the Propeller Heads. Don't know why I an posting this, but it feels right somehow.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzLT6_TQmq8
  • BillyJamesTBillyJamesT Posts: 2,934
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    Yes, I agree. Nationalism is always ugly, no matter which side its on.

    Its not nationalism though is it? Its self determination, English for Yes, Polish for Yes Asians for Yes to mention a few.

    The word from some Polish citizens is Better Together have told them if they vote Yes they will be kicked out. Hoping thats not true, it would be disgusting to think a campaign could stoop so low.
  • AidyAidy Posts: 2,358
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    Its not nationalism though is it? Its self determination, English for Yes, Polish for Yes Asians for Yes to mention a few.

    The word from some Polish citizens is Better Together have told them if they vote Yes they will be kicked out. Hoping thats not true, it would be disgusting to think a campaign could stoop so low.

    Another assertion with no evidence.

    I could post hundreds of stories from people about what yes supporters have said to them but don't as I believe it all to be rubbish
  • nomad2kingnomad2king Posts: 8,415
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    Its not nationalism though is it? Its self determination, English for Yes, Polish for Yes Asians for Yes to mention a few.

    The word from some Polish citizens is Better Together have told them if they vote Yes they will be kicked out. Hoping thats not true, it would be disgusting to think a campaign could stoop so low.
    The Poles are allowed in the UK by virtue of the UK being in the EU. Post-independence Scotland would NOT be a member of the EU and therefore they would have no automatic right to be in Scotland. It is possible that the Scots would allow them to stay, but there is nothing so far to say that they will.
  • KapellmeisterKapellmeister Posts: 41,322
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    Its not nationalism though is it? Its self determination, English for Yes, Polish for Yes Asians for Yes to mention a few.

    The word from some Polish citizens is Better Together have told them if they vote Yes they will be kicked out. Hoping thats not true, it would be disgusting to think a campaign could stoop so low.

    Yes, it is. We'll see how things develop following the 'Yes' vote.
  • momma11momma11 Posts: 3,843
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    thms wrote: »
    Jim Sillars debate with George Galloway from earlier this year.
    Both are socialist, but have differing opinions about independence.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzxHVcmfkxc

    george galloway is only concerned about his profile , the man is a totally arrogant idiot and is no way concerned about anybody else's opinion other than his own. He is so jealous of Alex Salmond's status in Scotland he can barely breathe.
    Alex Salmond is where George Galloway wants to be .
    Over the Scottish Electorate's dead body .
    Go home George...no-one wants you here .
    Re
  • FrankieFixerFrankieFixer Posts: 11,530
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    Its not nationalism though is it? Its self determination, English for Yes, Polish for Yes Asians for Yes to mention a few.

    The word from some Polish citizens is Better Together have told them if they vote Yes they will be kicked out. Hoping thats not true, it would be disgusting to think a campaign could stoop so low.

    Yo Dawg, I heard you like lies so I put a lie in your lies so you can lie while you lie.
  • bhoy07bhoy07 Posts: 25,036
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    Its not nationalism though is it? Its self determination, English for Yes, Polish for Yes Asians for Yes to mention a few.

    The word from some Polish citizens is Better Together have told them if they vote Yes they will be kicked out. Hoping thats not true, it would be disgusting to think a campaign could stoop so low.

    Claiming cancer operations are about to start being cancelled in England (at a hospital that doesn't do them) as a reason to vote yes - now that is low.

    What was even lower is that the Yes campaign made no attempt to investigate nor did it admit they were wrong when the truth came out.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,645
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    If Scotland votes "yes" I'm not buying any more shortbread.
  • benjaminibenjamini Posts: 32,066
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    Its not nationalism though is it? Its self determination, English for Yes, Polish for Yes Asians for Yes to mention a few.

    The word from some Polish citizens is Better Together have told them if they vote Yes they will be kicked out. Hoping thats not true, it would be disgusting to think a campaign could stoop so low.

    Call it what you like but it's nationalism. And as Einstein said.

    " nationalism is an infantile disease. The measles of mankind" .

    But what did he know, he wasn't Scottish. ;-)
  • BillyJamesTBillyJamesT Posts: 2,934
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    Yes, it is. We'll see how things develop following the 'Yes' vote.

    You think a Yes vote will trigger Westminsters Aliens Act again?
  • jjwalesjjwales Posts: 48,534
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    Majlis wrote: »
    So everyone is supposed to bow to his judgement? :confused:

    No, where did I say or imply that?
  • thmsthms Posts: 61,000
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    benjamini wrote: »
    Call it what you like but it's nationalism. And as Einstein said.

    " nationalism is an infantile disease. The measles of mankind" .

    But what did he know, he wasn't Scottish. ;-)

    He was referring to ethnic nationalism not civic nationalism
  • Scalper JackScalper Jack Posts: 4,733
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    - "But despite an army of Labour supporters knocking doors, only three residents engaged in conversation with her [Lamont] - while several even came outside to return the leaflets pushed through their letter boxes"

    The article was soon pulled from The Scotsman.

    https://archive.today/oi5Qd

    --
    Re: Scottish footballers. Short memories. "Holyrood election 2011: Stars of football turn out to support Labour." Their message of support worked rather well! :p

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/holyrood-election-2011-stars-of-football-1102072
  • duckymallardduckymallard Posts: 13,936
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    Abewest wrote: »
    As is the point I was making i.e. right in front of your eyes -- 'philosophy', or didn't you grasp that? To be honest, it doesn't surprise me.

    I wanted to ensure that you hadn't missed the obvious clue in amongst all that philosophical claptrap.
  • mRebelmRebel Posts: 24,882
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    The only bit worth reading on that site are the comments. If the people writing some of those comments ever get in charge of an independent Scotland then God help us all.

    Salmond has played a blinder in convincing so many Scots that independence would be followed by currency union. If yes wins, I'm intrigued as to what excuse he'll give his country men when he can't deliver it, I'm sure he has one prepared.
  • onecitizenonecitizen Posts: 5,042
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    mRebel wrote: »
    Salmond has played a blinder in convincing so many Scots that independence would be followed by currency union. If yes wins, I'm intrigued as to what excuse he'll give his country men when he can't deliver it, I'm sure he has one prepared.

    He'll make the English the scapegoats.
    That's what nationalists do, look for outsiders to apportion blame to.
  • DaewosDaewos Posts: 8,344
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    So I'm heading that the uk should subsidise scotlands embassies and give a currency union and take Scotlands debt but what is expected of Scotland for the the rest of the UK?

    I've been reading this thread for a while and its nice to see most of the trouble makers gone and people having a better discussion on here

    Really? Could have fooled me - more nastiness, personal attacks and pointless bitching. No real point in the thread anymore - most posters are not interested in debate. Take my advice - just read and laugh at them. :)
  • mRebelmRebel Posts: 24,882
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    onecitizen wrote: »
    He'll make the English the scapegoats.
    That's what nationalists do, look for outsiders to apportion blame to.

    That's what I think. Salmond will say currency union is in the interests of the UK and Westminster has only said no as an act of revenge on the Scots for choosing independence, or something like that.
  • AidyAidy Posts: 2,358
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    Daewos wrote: »
    Really? Could have fooled me - more nastiness, personal attacks and pointless bitching. No real point in the thread anymore - most posters are not interested in debate. Take my advice - just read and laugh at them. :)

    Thats a bit rich coming from you. You are one of the worst culprits for it.

    Posts 5457, 4484, 4237, 2712 and 2450 after a quick look.
  • thmsthms Posts: 61,000
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    Less than two weeks to go. Will Scotland say Yes? Definitely!
    https://twitter.com/hargi_/status/508243911601819648/photo/1
  • tiggertinytiggertiny Posts: 5,361
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    onecitizen wrote: »
    He'll make the English the scapegoats.
    That's what nationalists do, look for outsiders to apportion blame to.

    Nationalists through history have looked for another race or creed or nationality or just people who are different to blame for the perceived ills of society in order to advance their political agenda.

    There is clearly enough anti-English sentiment around to make it helpful to further Salmond's cause which is why he makes derogatory remarks about Tory toffs and Westminster at every opportunity.

    It may give nationalist supporters a good laugh but it is juvenile and tinged with bigotry
    and shows Salmond in his true colours.
  • AbewestAbewest Posts: 3,017
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    I wanted to ensure that you hadn't missed the obvious clue in amongst all that philosophical claptrap.

    Blatant hypocrisy may equate to 'philosophical claptrap' in your reality, but in the real world it has a very different meaning. They had the chance to put into practise their ethos of a fairer, caring, sharing society, but when that opportunity arose they showed their true colours, confirmed that it's nothing more than a few sound bites designed to placate the faithful.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,645
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    mRebel wrote: »
    That's what I think. Salmond will say currency union is in the interests of the UK and Westminster has only said no as an act of revenge on the Scots for choosing independence, or something like that.

    ^This
  • saywhatyouseesaywhatyousee Posts: 787
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    tiggertiny wrote: »
    Nationalists through history have looked for another race or creed or nationality or just people who are different to blame for the perceived ills of society in order to advance their political agenda.

    There is clearly enough anti-English sentiment around to make it helpful to further Salmond's cause which is why he makes derogatory remarks about Tory toffs and Westminster at every opportunity.

    It may give nationalist supporters a good laugh but it is juvenile and tinged with bigotry
    and shows Salmond in his true colours.

    Don't you think it's more likely that it's the 'toffs' element that is the problem?

    That's certainly one of the problems I have. There is no anti-english element to my disapproval of the current cabinet. Actually, it's not only the fact they are 'toffs', Tony Benn was a 'toff', these people just seem so disconnected from me. I realise I'm only speaking for myself here and don't presume all working class people feel the same but I wouldn't be surprised if many of them would agree...
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