Done deal that No will win?

13

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  • DontgimmeevalsDontgimmeevals Posts: 301
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    momma11 wrote: »
    I have always been a YES voter , but I never expected to win , I thought it might be close,but the NO would prevail.
    The recent news of the Banks and top Businesses defecting from Scotland really depressed me , because in my naivety , I thought it was a democracy , and the Ballot would win.
    Not so , all it takes is Westminster to crack the whip , and the Scottish Banks and other Businesses ( Asda and John Lewis ) all fall into line to force the Scottish Electorate to vote NO .
    The message has been received loud and clear.
    Vote NO ...or else .
    Surely even the NO voters can't be happy with this , for it faces them with the reality that they have no choice.It always had to be a NO or suffer the consequences .
    So much for Democracy .
    I am still voting YES ,I may be part of a dwindling factor , but I stand by my principles.
    I still believe we could do it , I still believe in the system .
    More fool me .
    There will be no more powers devolved to Scotland , if we should return a NO vote , there will be no need for Westminster to grant us anything more ,they have flexed their muscles and we will have caved , all they have to do is threaten to withdraw any hope of trade and financial future for us to have to give in .
    Game over , and it makes me so angry , because we are better than this and we can do so much more .
    Belief in ourselves would be a start .
    Standing firm would be the way forward .
    But people are frightened, and while I understand that ,it angers me that they would give in so easily.
    I am still voting YES , because I believe we can .
    I will never give up , even if it is futile.
    Where there is hope , you can do anything.

    Why is it not a democratic process for the electorate to be told in advance about the consequences of their vote? Are you suggesting that all of these businesses are bluffing and are acting politically? If so, what is their motive?

    The nationalists would only be too happy for their lies and silly oil projections to go unchallenged but that isn't going to happen. As soon as the electorate is given the FACTS suddenly the nationalists claim that democracy is dead. Give me a break.
  • Thomas007Thomas007 Posts: 14,309
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    I've been doing a bit of gambling recently (those on the sports forums will probably know), I've made a profit of £2000 over the summer and I continue to hopefully keep it up.

    I'm thinking of putting £500 on NO, in order to get £100 back (since its becoming quite short now). I'm not sure whether to bet now, or a few days time as it might swing back to Yes in the final days if No start becoming complacent.

    Basically do people think the odds are as good as they're going to get for NO, and that I should bet now?
  • momma11momma11 Posts: 3,843
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    Why is it not a democratic process for the electorate to be told in advance about the consequences of their vote? Are you suggesting that all of these businesses are bluffing and are acting politically? If so, what is their motive?

    The nationalists would only be too happy for their lies and silly oil projections to go unchallenged but that isn't going to happen. As soon as the electorate is given the FACTS suddenly the nationalists claim that democracy is dead. Give me a break.

    Why am I not surprised at this.
    We had a chance to form our own future , that was taken away ,undemocratically by Westminster. That is my grievance , and anyone who believes the latest announcements about the banks and businesses have nothing to do with Downing street is more naive than I am .
    I believed this would be solved by the Ballot , and was prepared for a NO vote.
    I would have been disappointed but would have accepted this ( I am not alone in this ) .
    This decision would have been taken by those who had considered all the pros and cons , the fact that their decision would have been opposite to mine is down to different perspectives of our country's future.
    Then Downing street became involved , and in their panic that the YES vote might succeed , they got heavy handed and applied pressure to bring Scotland to heel .
    We have no real say , our voice has never really counted, that has become obvious over the past 24 hours , it's been a case of do whatever it takes .
    You might not agree with me ,but the future will tell .
    We will not get the powers promised , they will have the decision they need and we will never be allowed to put Westminster in this position again .
    This is nothing to do with being a Nationalist , or complaining about being bested.
    Surely you must see that by bringing pressure to bear on the electorate to vote the way Westminster wants is tantamount to gerrymandering ?
    It bothers me that no matter how we may vote , the powers that be will find a way to overpower it.
    That can't be right...surely .
    It most certainly is not Democracy
  • ZeusZeus Posts: 10,459
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    Thomas007 wrote: »
    I've been doing a bit of gambling recently (those on the sports forums will probably know), I've made a profit of £2000 over the summer and I continue to hopefully keep it up.

    I'm thinking of putting £500 on NO, in order to get £100 back (since its becoming quite short now). I'm not sure whether to bet now, or a few days time as it might swing back to Yes in the final days if No start becoming complacent.

    Basically do people think the odds are as good as they're going to get for NO, and that I should bet now?

    If I were to bet at all it would on Yes. The odds for No are too short to make it worthwhile, in fact too short full stop. While No is still favourite, they're not 4 to 1 on. If you bet on Yes, you can get 4 to 1 against in a very close two horse race.

    That said, I wouldn't bet anything I couldn't afford to lose.
  • leddersledders Posts: 2,186
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    momma11 wrote: »
    I have always been a YES voter , but I never expected to win , I thought it might be close,but the NO would prevail.
    The recent news of the Banks and top Businesses defecting from Scotland really depressed me , because in my naivety , I thought it was a democracy , and the Ballot would win.
    Not so , all it takes is Westminster to crack the whip , and the Scottish Banks and other Businesses ( Asda and John Lewis ) all fall into line to force the Scottish Electorate to vote NO .
    The message has been received loud and clear.
    Vote NO ...or else .
    Surely even the NO voters can't be happy with this , for it faces them with the reality that they have no choice.It always had to be a NO or suffer the consequences .
    So much for Democracy .
    I am still voting YES ,I may be part of a dwindling factor , but I stand by my principles.
    I still believe we could do it , I still believe in the system .
    More fool me .
    There will be no more powers devolved to Scotland , if we should return a NO vote , there will be no need for Westminster to grant us anything more ,they have flexed their muscles and we will have caved , all they have to do is threaten to withdraw any hope of trade and financial future for us to have to give in .
    Game over , and it makes me so angry , because we are better than this and we can do so much more .
    Belief in ourselves would be a start .
    Standing firm would be the way forward .
    But people are frightened, and while I understand that ,it angers me that they would give in so easily.
    I am still voting YES , because I believe we can .
    I will never give up , even if it is futile.
    Where there is hope , you can do anything.

    It is a democracy. You have the right to vote yes or no. That is still the choice.

    Have you ever heard of the term manifesto? Basically, a manifesto outlines what wold happen if you vote for a certain political viewpoint.

    All these businesses are doing is a form of extension of that.

    What would you prefer? Should, in your view, these businesses not be upfront and say how they will conduct their business as a result of a yes vote? Would you rather not know? Or don't you like what they want to do with their businesses because it doesn't conform to what you want?
  • DontgimmeevalsDontgimmeevals Posts: 301
    Forum Member
    momma11 wrote: »
    Why am I not surprised at this.
    We had a chance to form our own future , that was taken away ,undemocratically by Westminster. That is my grievance , and anyone who believes the latest announcements about the banks and businesses have nothing to do with Downing street is more naive than I am .
    I believed this would be solved by the Ballot , and was prepared for a NO vote.
    I would have been disappointed but would have accepted this ( I am not alone in this ) .
    This decision would have been taken by those who had considered all the pros and cons , the fact that their decision would have been opposite to mine is down to different perspectives of our country's future.
    Then Downing street became involved , and in their panic that the YES vote might succeed , they got heavy handed and applied pressure to bring Scotland to heel .
    We have no real say , our voice has never really counted, that has become obvious over the past 24 hours , it's been a case of do whatever it takes .
    You might not agree with me ,but the future will tell .
    We will not get the powers promised , they will have the decision they need and we will never be allowed to put Westminster in this position again .
    This is nothing to do with being a Nationalist , or complaining about being bested.
    Surely you must see that by bringing pressure to bear on the electorate to vote the way Westminster wants is tantamount to gerrymandering ?
    It bothers me that no matter how we may vote , the powers that be will find a way to overpower it.
    That can't be right...surely .
    It most certainly is not Democracy

    As far as I know, and I am not privy to the conversations that Downing Street has with business, the Prime Minister was only making phone calls today to supermarkets according to Robert Peston.

    The banks were not responding to political pressure but rather to market pressure. As it became a sudden reality that Scotland might vote yes, the markets reacted sharply on Monday. To avoid uncertainties and further market volatility the banks and other leading institutions have made their stance clear to protect their own businesses and shareholders. This is not scaremongering, it just the plain facts of a referendum where information and facts are put out there for the electorate to vote on.

    I am not trying to attack you here but I am making a general comment about the Yes campaign: they do not like it when their rosy vision of an independent Scotland bankrolled by oil is challenged and one week away from the poll people like yourself are calling the end of democracy. Bit much, no?
  • Under SoulUnder Soul Posts: 2,989
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    Wonder when we get to know the result - does it happen overnight on next Thursday or will Scotland take about 2 months to count the votes like they did in the Euro elections?
  • delegate zerodelegate zero Posts: 2,632
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    Under Soul wrote: »
    Wonder when we get to know the result - does it happen overnight on next Thursday or will Scotland take about 2 months to count the votes like they did in the Euro elections?

    will be announced regionally,last result will be known about 6.30am on the friday.
  • Under SoulUnder Soul Posts: 2,989
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    will be announced regionally,last result will be known about 6.30am on the friday.

    Thanks. :) Means an all nighter on Thursday and I can't take the Friday off. Real coffee and matches propping up my eye lid day.

    Sure it will be a good turnout on DS!
  • LostFoolLostFool Posts: 90,623
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    Under Soul wrote: »
    Thanks. :) Means an all nighter on Thursday and I can't take the Friday off. Real coffee and matches propping up my eye lid day.

    Sure it will be a good turnout on DS!

    Unfortunately I have to drive to meeting on Friday on the other side of the country. I'm still hoping it will be cancelled.

    I suspect that this will go down to the very final declaration which will probably be the Highlands. They are always the last to declare due to the distances between polling stations.
  • momma11momma11 Posts: 3,843
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    As far as I know, and I am not privy to the conversations that Downing Street has with business, the Prime Minister was only making phone calls today to supermarkets according to Robert Peston.

    The banks were not responding to political pressure but rather to market pressure. As it became a sudden reality that Scotland might vote yes, the markets reacted sharply on Monday. To avoid uncertainties and further market volatility the banks and other leading institutions have made their stance clear to protect their own businesses and shareholders. This is not scaremongering, it just the plain facts of a referendum where information and facts are put out there for the electorate to vote on.

    I am not trying to attack you here but I am making a general comment about the Yes campaign: they do not like it when their rosy vision of an independent Scotland bankrolled by oil is challenged and one week away from the poll people like yourself are calling the end of democracy. Bit much, no?



    No , not much at all.
    I had no such rosy vision of Independence , I always thought it would be a lot of work , but worth it for the end result .
    I am disillusioned because of the interference of Downing street. It's no coincidence that the PM has consultations with the supermarkets one day , and this announcement makes the headlines the next.
    I'm naive....not stupid.
    The love bombing didn't work , project fear didn't work ...but the threats to the Scottish economy ?
    Might not have worked for the Electorate ....it worked for the supermarkets though ( apart from Tesco )
    My point is , Westminster wasn't going to interfere , it was supposed to be for the People of Scotland to decide.
    Except that's not how it turned out....the minute it looked like Scotland might decide for Independence , the threats became real...all backed by Westminster .
    Our vote became meaningless , it became , vote NO or else .
    Surely you can see that ? forget about Scots Nats or any party politics .
    Forcing a Country to vote the way you want by destryong their econimy is simply undemoctratic .
    This isn't about Tory , Labour ,libdem or SNP .
    It's about what's right and fair .
    It's about Scotland , YES or NO in a Democratic vote , if there is no real choice , how on earth is that Democratic ?
  • Under SoulUnder Soul Posts: 2,989
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    LostFool wrote: »
    Unfortunately I have to drive to meeting on Friday on the other side of the country. I'm still hoping it will be cancelled.

    I suspect that this will go down to the very final declaration which will probably be the Highlands. They are always the last to declare due to the distances between polling stations.

    It's still a full week away - I've never known an election as tense and important as this one. Already getting sick of the waiting game...
  • DontgimmeevalsDontgimmeevals Posts: 301
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    momma11 wrote: »
    [/B]


    No , not much at all.
    I had no such rosy vision of Independence , I always thought it would be a lot of work , but worth it for the end result .
    I am disillusioned because of the interference of Downing street. It's no coincidence that the PM has consultations with the supermarkets one day , and this announcement makes the headlines the next.
    I'm naive....not stupid.
    The love bombing didn't work , project fear didn't work ...but the threats to the Scottish economy ?
    Might not have worked for the Electorate ....it worked for the supermarkets though ( apart from Tesco )
    My point is , Westminster wasn't going to interfere , it was supposed to be for the People of Scotland to decide.
    Except that's not how it turned out....the minute it looked like Scotland might decide for Independence , the threats became real...all backed by Westminster .
    Our vote became meaningless , it became , vote NO or else .
    Surely you can see that ? forget about Scots Nats or any party politics .
    Forcing a Country to vote the way you want by destryong their econimy is simply undemoctratic .
    This isn't about Tory , Labour ,libdem or SNP .
    It's about what's right and fair .
    It's about Scotland , YES or NO in a Democratic vote , if there is no real choice , how on earth is that Democratic ?

    Do you not realise that Scotland's vote will have HUGE consequences for the rest of the UK? We should just stand by and watch the Scots being lied to and destroy our union. I don't think so.
  • LostFoolLostFool Posts: 90,623
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    Under Soul wrote: »
    It's still a full week away - I've never known an election as tense and important as this one. Already getting sick of the waiting game...

    Yes, in many ways this will be more important for the future of these isles than the next General Election - and it's one that 90% of the country can't do anything about but sit and wait.
  • momma11momma11 Posts: 3,843
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    Do you not realise that Scotland's vote will have HUGE consequences for the rest of the UK? We should just stand by and watch the Scots being lied to and destroy our union. I don't think so.

    We are all being lied to , all round from all sides .
    Who is destroying who ?
    I don't want to destroy the Union , I don't understand why it's not possible to have self determination and still remain allies , especially when confronted with a common foe .
    Hasn't that always been the way between separate countries in the past ?
    Didn't Britain declare war because Germany invaded Poland due to a treaty between Britain and Poland ?
    Why does it have to mean the end of amicable relations between Scotland and the rest of the UK?
  • DontgimmeevalsDontgimmeevals Posts: 301
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    momma11 wrote: »
    We are all being lied to , all round from all sides .
    Who is destroying who ?
    I don't want to destroy the Union , I don't understand why it's not possible to have self determination and still remain allies , especially when confronted with a common foe .
    Hasn't that always been the way between separate countries in the past ?
    Didn't Britain declare war because Germany invaded Poland due to a treaty between Britain and Poland ?
    Why does it have to mean the end of amicable relations between Scotland and the rest of the UK?

    Does Ireland share the same foreign policy as the UK? Does Ireland have the same tax regime as the UK? Does Ireland have the same welfare spending as the UK?

    No.

    Scotland will, given time, be a completely independent nation which will make decisions which suit its best interests. It won't go to war in Syria just because the UK is.

    In that essence, you are breaking the union.
  • MARTYM8MARTYM8 Posts: 44,710
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    BanglaRoad wrote: »
    Don't know how many of the posters on this thread are actually living in Scotland but the vibe for Yes is overwhelming Have been in Glasgow, Stirling, Dundee and various other towns in the last three weeks and I just feel that the polls have this one wrong

    Maybe you are right - but do you hang around with the elderly or young/middle aged mums. They may not give out much of a vibe - but at present they are the groups showing the biggest leads for the No side. And the elderly vote and vote again.

    I am sure lots of people claimed not to know many who voted for Mrs Thatcher in the 1980s - but the silent pensioner vote went for her big time!
  • MARTYM8MARTYM8 Posts: 44,710
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    Do you not realise that Scotland's vote will have HUGE consequences for the rest of the UK? We should just stand by and watch the Scots being lied to and destroy our union. I don't think so.

    Who is lying to who - there is lying on both sides.

    It may be your union but it's not mine. Scotland is a different place with different values - we don't need to have the same government to be friends and partners. It's time for it to rise up and be a nation again as they say - just like our Irish friends.
  • momma11momma11 Posts: 3,843
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    MARTYM8 wrote: »
    Who is lying to who - there is lying on both sides.

    It may be your union but it's not mine. Scotland is a different place with different values - we don't need to have the same government to be friends and partners. It's time for it to rise up and be a nation again as they say - just like our Irish friends.

    At last ! ...Exactly !

    Thank you .
  • DontgimmeevalsDontgimmeevals Posts: 301
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    MARTYM8 wrote: »
    Who is lying to who - there is lying on both sides.

    It may be your union but it's not mine. Scotland is a different place with different values - we don't need to have the same government to be friends and partners. It's time for it to rise up and be a nation again as they say - just like our Irish friends.

    Rise up?

    That is a nationalist speaking.

    Your heart rules your head, unfortunately.
  • LostFoolLostFool Posts: 90,623
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    MARTYM8 wrote: »
    Who is lying to who - there is lying on both sides.

    It may be your union but it's not mine. Scotland is a different place with different values - we don't need to have the same government to be friends and partners. It's time for it to rise up and be a nation again as they say - just like our Irish friends.

    It must be strange living in a country that you don't want to be in. Do you feel anger every time you look at your passport and see "United Kingdom"?

    Voting yes won't make the Scots any more Scottish than they are already.
  • emptyboxemptybox Posts: 13,917
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    MARTYM8 wrote: »
    Who is lying to who - there is lying on both sides.

    It may be your union but it's not mine. Scotland is a different place with different values - we don't need to have the same government to be friends and partners. It's time for it to rise up and be a nation again as they say - just like our Irish friends.

    But that's just it. It's not time.

    If the world was in a better place financially, and if the rest of the world was willing to accept and help a newly independent Scotland, then you might find more people willing to vote Yes (perhaps even myself).

    But we are trying to crawl out of the biggest economic downturn since the 1930's, and the rest of the world has made it very clear that they do not want Scotland to break from the union. And will hinder it at every turn.

    Alex Salmond has said that the first thing to happen after a Yes vote is that the negotiating team would go into action.
    No the first thing that would happen after a Yes vote is that the UK stock market would crash.
  • MagicCoppeliaMagicCoppelia Posts: 20,758
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    welshfoxy wrote: »
    The no campaign and their many fans on here (I'm not saying who I'm backing ;)) would love to just call things off right now -"Done deal folks, nothing to see here". They seem to hate the idea of democracy the ones I've seen. Went from deriding the Scots to trying to sweeten them up to deriding them again. Whatever happens I don't think English-Scottish relations will be quite the same after this, even with the Scots who voted no - the English have made it quite clear they think they own the rest of the UK and it's not really a union at all to them (I obviously don't mean every English person, just most of the media and most people on this site ;))

    The English have made it quite clear they think they own the rest of the UK?. WTF. Honestly the sense of victimhood is almost funny sometimes.:D
  • MARTYM8MARTYM8 Posts: 44,710
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    Rise up?

    That is a nationalist speaking.

    Your heart rules your head, unfortunately.

    You obviously subscribe to the view that big nations are good and small nations are incapable of functioning. You ignore the fact that the richest nations on a GDP per head basis in Europe - Liechtenstein, Luxembourg and Norway - have amongst the smallest populations.

    Your nation is an emotional decision - otherwise we would have no countries at all. Scotland may actually do much better outside the UK which is up to its eyeballs in debt, has appalling infrastructure, has a housing disaster and an ever expanding population it cannot afford to provide services for. Scotland is perfectly capable of functioning on its own.

    The bankers say it must be so - and you believe them. Good for you. Cos they nearly destroyed us in 2008!

    Bigger isn't better!
  • muntamunta Posts: 18,285
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    momma11 wrote: »
    [/B]


    No , not much at all.
    I had no such rosy vision of Independence , I always thought it would be a lot of work , but worth it for the end result .
    I am disillusioned because of the interference of Downing street. It's no coincidence that the PM has consultations with the supermarkets one day , and this announcement makes the headlines the next.
    I'm naive....not stupid.
    The love bombing didn't work , project fear didn't work ...but the threats to the Scottish economy ?
    Might not have worked for the Electorate ....it worked for the supermarkets though ( apart from Tesco )
    My point is , Westminster wasn't going to interfere , it was supposed to be for the People of Scotland to decide.
    Except that's not how it turned out....the minute it looked like Scotland might decide for Independence , the threats became real...all backed by Westminster .
    Our vote became meaningless , it became , vote NO or else .
    Surely you can see that ? forget about Scots Nats or any party politics .
    Forcing a Country to vote the way you want by destryong their econimy is simply undemoctratic .
    This isn't about Tory , Labour ,libdem or SNP .
    It's about what's right and fair .
    It's about Scotland , YES or NO in a Democratic vote , if there is no real choice , how on earth is that Democratic ?
    Political decisions have far ranging implications. You are being informed of those implications so that you can make a reasoned decision. That's democracy in action.
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