Scottish independence: let's have an honest debate (P3)

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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,074
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    LostFool wrote: »
    And what would the result have been in 2010?
    A Conservative government with a small majority rather than a Consevative and LibDem coalition government with a larger majority. So if what we got is better depends on if you think the LibDems have done a swell job in government.
  • thmsthms Posts: 61,000
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    LostFool wrote: »
    Dennis Canavan, the chair of Yes Scotland, was on the radio this morning and refused to explain the "day of reckoning" line saying that the interviewer should ask Sillars what he meant.

    When an old leftie like Canavan won't support your nationalisation agenda then you know you have gone too far.

    Jim Sillars explains it himself, here on BBC News 24

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WWtRmSJFLs
  • BillyJamesTBillyJamesT Posts: 2,934
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    Aidy wrote: »
    Comical Ali strikes again.

    Keep telling yourself that Yes has been positive...ignoring their scaremongering on NHS....Keep telling yourself that yes have run a good natured campaign....If you say it often enough you might even believe it.

    History will see these times as the moment the people of Scotland wrested technology's sword from the Westminster warlords, the establishment brought to its knees.
  • BillyJamesTBillyJamesT Posts: 2,934
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    There is no way they expected this response and I'll tell you something, if we vote no, they will never risk it again....so, this is it.

    The last thing they wanted was an engaged electorate, apathy suited them down to the ground, they've made a huge arse of the whole thing and the No voters should be angry with them, not us.

    Your spot on, this chance will never come round again. I've said this before if David Cameron could have envisioned this moment 4 years ago he would never have given his consent to this referendum.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,044
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    History will see these times as the moment the people of Scotland wrested technology's sword from the Westminster warlords, the establishment brought to its knees.

    Cry Freedom and let loose the dogs of war:D

    Or sumthin like that:D
  • thmsthms Posts: 61,000
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    http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/9748-forces-veterans-slam-dannatt-after-ex-general-claims-yes-an-insult-to-dead-soldiers#comment-220094

    "A group of armed forces veterans who are voting Yes - including 102-year-old Desert Rat Jimmy Sinclair - have today issued an open letter in response to an article in yesterday's Sunday Telegraph by Lord Richard Dannatt, in which the No supporting peer attempted to use the deaths of service-personnel as a reason to vote No."

    well done for doing this..
  • LostFoolLostFool Posts: 90,623
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  • The infidelThe infidel Posts: 3,826
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    LostFool wrote: »
    Dennis Canavan, the chair of Yes Scotland, was on the radio this morning and refused to explain the "day of reckoning" line saying that the interviewer should ask Sillars what he meant.

    When an old leftie like Canavan won't support your nationalisation agenda then you know you have gone too far.

    Sillars extraordinary threats against oil companies and our finance sector let the Scottish Nasty Parties mask slip somewhat. He goes some way to proving that they have a real dark side. His remarks will certainly cause alarm within the business community and basically tells companies 'step out of line, get nationalised'.
  • mimik1ukmimik1uk Posts: 46,701
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    History will see these times as the moment the people of Scotland wrested technology's sword from the Westminster warlords, the establishment brought to its knees.

    I didn't realise Pink Floyd were on the SNP list of quotes to use ...
  • The infidelThe infidel Posts: 3,826
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    thms wrote: »
    http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/9748-forces-veterans-slam-dannatt-after-ex-general-claims-yes-an-insult-to-dead-soldiers#comment-220094

    "A group of armed forces veterans who are voting Yes - including 102-year-old Desert Rat Jimmy Sinclair - have today issued an open letter in response to an article in yesterday's Sunday Telegraph by Lord Richard Dannatt, in which the No supporting peer attempted to use the deaths of service-personnel as a reason to vote No."

    well done for doing this..

    Its terrible when they start to get old isnt it !?

    Who on earth would want to be a mercenary in New Scotlands armed forces? Would you want you Son or Daughter serving in Salmonds 'Republican Guard'?
  • LostFoolLostFool Posts: 90,623
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    thms wrote: »
    Jim Sillars explains it himself, here on BBC News 24

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WWtRmSJFLs

    BP has a market cap of £86bn and none of that is owned by the UK government. How much of the company is he planning on buying on the open market?
  • BillyJamesTBillyJamesT Posts: 2,934
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    thms wrote: »
    http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/9748-forces-veterans-slam-dannatt-after-ex-general-claims-yes-an-insult-to-dead-soldiers#comment-220094

    "A group of armed forces veterans who are voting Yes - including 102-year-old Desert Rat Jimmy Sinclair - have today issued an open letter in response to an article in yesterday's Sunday Telegraph by Lord Richard Dannatt, in which the No supporting peer attempted to use the deaths of service-personnel as a reason to vote No."

    well done for doing this..

    I thought that was a spoof twitter account on Saturday night, but was shocked to see that very front page at a petrol station on Sunday morning. Its an utter disgrace.
  • momma11momma11 Posts: 3,843
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    The YES campaign has been positive , it has found common ground amongst the Scottish people.
    Just today , I took part in the YES coming together in Stirling , it was amazing , the atmosphere was good natured ,I have watched the same phenomenon online across the Cities in Scotland , people joining in on the singing, almost a carnival atmosphere .
    The YES movement is the ultimate Grass roots movement , the YES campaign is more than Alex Salmond , it is the people standing up and saying change is necessary and worth campaigning for.
    The best thing about this referendum is the lack of apathy ,no matter the result ,the people of Scotland have actively engaged in this debate .
    I've never seen anything like it ,it's amazing .
    I am honoured to be part of it .
  • BillyJamesTBillyJamesT Posts: 2,934
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    mimik1uk wrote: »
    I didn't realise Pink Floyd were on the SNP list of quotes to use ...

    Rodger Watters actually but close enough for your coconut.:D
  • thmsthms Posts: 61,000
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    LostFool wrote: »
    BP has a market cap of £86bn and none of that is owned by the UK government. How much of the company is he planning on buying on the open market?

    If you can be bothered to listen.. you will find out the day of reckoning is something money can't buy
  • duckymallardduckymallard Posts: 13,936
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    Its terrible when they start to get old isnt it !?

    Who on earth would want to be a mercenary in New Scotlands armed forces? Would you want you Son or Daughter serving in Salmonds 'Republican Guard'?

    Think I'd far rather have my son or daughter serving in a small compact defence force, rather running all over the world, getting involved in illegal wars with a pretty good chance of coming back in a body bag.

    And for what?

    To continue the idiotic belief that the UK is a "major player" in world politics? Time a lot of Westminster people realised that we're no longer "ruling the waves" and no longer the big boy on the block.
  • LostFoolLostFool Posts: 90,623
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    To continue the idiotic belief that the UK is a "major player" in world politics? Time a lot of Westminster people realised that we're no longer "ruling the waves" and no longer the big boy on the block.

    Of course the UK is a major player. Maybe not the biggest but we are at the top table in the UN Security Council, NATO, EU, G7 and are at the heart of the Commonwealth. What other country can match that?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,074
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    thms wrote: »
    If you can be bothered to listen.. you will find out the day of reckoning is something money can't buy
    The day of reckoning if Yes wins will be the day people realize they have been sold a fairy tale by the SNP promising things they cannot deliver and they do not get to vote again after the details have been decided and end up getting an indepent Scotland with no currency Union and no EU membership from day one, and once they have independence things may get worse as they realize Scotland is worse not better off. And then the ultimate day of reckoning when the rUK says no to reunification.
  • BillyJamesTBillyJamesT Posts: 2,934
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    momma11 wrote: »
    The YES campaign has been positive , it has found common ground amongst the Scottish people.
    Just today , I took part in the YES coming together in Stirling , it was amazing , the atmosphere was good natured ,I have watched the same phenomenon online across the Cities in Scotland , people joining in on the singing, almost a carnival atmosphere .
    The YES movement is the ultimate Grass roots movement , the YES campaign is more than Alex Salmond , it is the people standing up and saying change is necessary and worth campaigning for.
    The best thing about this referendum is the lack of apathy ,no matter the result ,the people of Scotland have actively engaged in this debate .
    I've never seen anything like it ,it's amazing .
    I am honoured to be part of it .

    Absolutely, you also sum up my feelings here, I've loved every minute of these last two and a half years. I remember being one of only two people in my work voting independence, I would try and engage everyone I spoke to about it. Slowly but surely they all came round. The thing that really amused and amazed me was when somebody who until this moment would never have talked politics, would come over to me and say "have you read about the McCrone report" or something. Whatever the outcome its been a real blast.
  • LostFoolLostFool Posts: 90,623
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    momma11 wrote: »
    I've never seen anything like it ,it's amazing .
    I am honoured to be part of it .

    I'm pleased you have enjoyed the campaign. What are your plans for when you lose?
  • momma11momma11 Posts: 3,843
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    We were an Army family , 2 of my sons joined the Army , one son is still serving in the South of England. He is voting NO.
    We are all voting Yes , but we respect our son's decision , he took the time and effort to weigh up the arguments for and against and made his decision based on this.
    He has already voted by postal vote .
    Cue the avalanche of negative news last week against Independence...no he didn't change his mind , but he did feel for us all up here, as he said " They are going too far and it's ugly "
    He's right .
    He still thinks his original decision is right , and he is entitled to that , I would not deny him ,I certainly would never disown him for voting against the principles I hold dear .

    But I still say we are being forced to vote NO , it's a case of NO or else .

    I'm still voting YES..... no matter what .
  • tony321tony321 Posts: 10,594
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    The more this goes the more I hope there is a Yes vote not only for the Scots people but for the rest of us too, it's time the party leaders woke up and started representing the people instead of the banks and big businesses
  • oathyoathy Posts: 32,627
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    First time tonight I saw Genuine Panic almost exhaustion on Camerons Face.
    but some points will be torn apart. He spoke about "if you don't like me I wont be around forever". But sadly owing to a piss weak labour leader the chances of Scotland getting another Tory government are pretty high, Loads of the policies this government created will remain (even if labour win). Cameron trying to tag him as the problem just shows the problem when they thought the no vote would win months ago the arrogance was in full flow. He's seeing a direct impact of all the people they have hammered and expecting those people to just lie back and take it.
  • momma11momma11 Posts: 3,843
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    LostFool wrote: »
    I'm pleased you have enjoyed the campaign. What are your plans for when you lose?

    I will swallow my disappointment and carry on living , following the laws and hoping for a better future .
    What would you suggest I do ?
  • The infidelThe infidel Posts: 3,826
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    Darling and Carmichael both accusing Alex Salmond of organizing intimidation against No campaigners, this is desperate stuff now. This has all the hallmarks of a campaign that's resigned itself to defeat. Better Together was a Tory backed campaign they chose the battleground, that being Labour v SNP with the Tories taking a back seat.

    This was set against a background of fear, scaremongering and negativity. This may well have worked had it not been for 1, the timescale suspending belief over such a long time. 2, The internet, social media, making us all journalists, 3, Citizen journalists (you know who;-)) 3, Probably the most important grassroots movements springing up all over Scotland and taking to the streets, this took the debate out of the hands of the politicians.

    I'm not sure how much Salmond counted on the grassroots movement or if he ever expected it to catch the imagination quite as it did, but its most certainly this factor that has closed the gap. SNP supporters alone could never carry Scotland to independence,7 the collapse of Labour, who have allowed themselves to be stitched up by the Tories here, has been decisive.

    Going by the body language and demeanor of Better Together politicians the result seems ominous, their now reduced to complaining about hecklers. The argument is completely lost.

    I guess 'capturing the grassroots' includes Surgeon virtually frogmarching Glasgow housing association tenants off to the registration office and telling them how much their benefits will increase by if we separate before covering them in 'Yes' stickers while laughing to camera.
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