Scottish independence: let's have an honest debate (P3)

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  • Speak-SoftlySpeak-Softly Posts: 24,737
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    Dub2 wrote: »
    Any independent country has a diversity of views. Scotland will simply become like every other civilised country in the world if they vote to rule themselves.

    Any reason it can't be considered civilised now in the Union, where evenmore diversity of views are around?
  • momma11momma11 Posts: 3,843
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    KIIS102 wrote: »
    Unfortunately it's true. Yes supports have ripped the Union Flag from it and put Yes stickers on it. Pictures on twitter. Very disrespectful

    I can only find a photo of a crowd of people around the Centotaph , is there another picture with the Union Flag with Yes stickers on it ?
  • LostFoolLostFool Posts: 90,623
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    The way it's going I could see Scotsmen/women being refused the right to join the BA (that coming from the Scots of course).

    I'm surprised they haven't said he would nationalise BA just as they have with the Royal Mail, BT and BP. Most self-respecting countries have their own national airline don't they?
  • boddismboddism Posts: 16,436
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    Been on the sharp end of online debate tonight.

    Some disputing claims (from both sides) of aggressive supporters (on both sides)

    anyone heard any stories about this kinda behaviour from either side?

    Im asking because Im hearing conflicting accounts/stories.
  • delegate zerodelegate zero Posts: 2,632
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    bhoy07 wrote: »
    Interesting wee stat - when the SNP got their majority in 2011 the polls were around the same as what they are now - 52/53% No 47/48% Yes

    So if the polls are correct - the last three years have counted for nothing.

    number of engaged voters has rocketed, sample size has stayed the same

    pollsters admit this could be their Waterloo, they just don't have a clue which side they have underpolled.
  • bhoy07bhoy07 Posts: 25,036
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    YouGov poll shows more Women than Men wish to remain in the Union. (57%/46%)

    Those like myself born in the UK but not in Scotland will be vote No (72%)

    Scots trust David Cameron slightly more the Miliband :o
  • delegate zerodelegate zero Posts: 2,632
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    boddism wrote: »
    Been on the sharp end of online debate tonight.

    Some disputing claims (from both sides) of aggressive supporters (on both sides)

    anyone heard any stories about this kinda behaviour from either side?

    Im asking because Im hearing conflicting accounts/stories.

    there was a few SDL/BNP/dregs of the rangers support type turned up at George Square,,a few Nazi salutes and threats, handbags really.
  • KIIS102KIIS102 Posts: 8,538
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    momma11 wrote: »
    I can only find a photo of a crowd of people around the Centotaph , is there another picture with the Union Flag with Yes stickers on it ?

    According to reports on twitter, it seems the Union Flag was ripped off the Cenotaph and burnt. Yes stickers were put onto the Cenotaph where the flag was. I can't believe this is what people have sunk too, the future of Scotland.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 181
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    If it's a narrow YES, by less than 1%, is it a big enough mandate for tearing up the nation, especially when you consider that England, Wales and Northern Ireland, all of whom oppose Scottish independence, didn't get a say.

    Cameron has a dreadful record of poor judgement, from Syria, Ukraine and also Scotland.

    Seeing Brown today made me realise how much of a mistake we made in kicking him out. I've never seen Cameron, Clegg or Blair put in such a performance.

    Hypothetical question:

    If it's an extremely narrow YES vote by less than 1%, should Cameron block Scottish independence?
  • bhoy07bhoy07 Posts: 25,036
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    number of engaged voters has rocketed, sample size has stayed the same

    pollsters admit this could be their Waterloo, they just don't have a clue which side they have underpolled.

    Sample size of 3k+ - one of the biggest samples done over the last three years.

    The missing million aren't all voting Yes.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 181
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    there was a few SDL/BNP/dregs of the rangers support type turned up at George Square,,a few Nazi salutes and threats, handbags really.

    Ah! Where would we be without delegate zero's crude sectarian rants, riddled with prejudice?
  • Dub2Dub2 Posts: 2,862
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    jenzie wrote: »
    REALLY
    you really think this???
    so i guess that next referendum is pretty close then
    you know
    to rejoin NATO then
    :rolleyes:

    You don`t think an independent Scotland would have fresh elections?:confused:
  • bhoy07bhoy07 Posts: 25,036
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    Zac_Jones wrote: »
    If it's an extremely narrow YES vote by less than 1%, should Cameron block Scottish independence?

    No, he shouldn't - however if negotiations don't go as smoothly as the Yes campaign claim they will and if what is agreed on is vastly different to the White Paper. Then I do think there would be a case of it going back to the people to decide.
  • delegate zerodelegate zero Posts: 2,632
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    Zac_Jones wrote: »
    Ah! Where would we be without delegate zero's crude sectarian rants, riddled with prejudice?

    come on, thats hardly fair.

    I said that because i wanted to differentiate them from the official campaign.

    or are these guys doing Nazi salutes officially a part of BT?
    http://i.imgur.com/vXStEIv.jpg
  • curmycurmy Posts: 4,723
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    benjamini wrote: »
    At the huge Yes rally in Perth tonight invite only, nick Robinson got huge boos when he left. The place was in an uproar.

    Terrifying isn't it ? & the shape of thing to come, I fear :(
  • Dub2Dub2 Posts: 2,862
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    tiggertiny wrote: »
    How many Scots have been forced against their will to join the armed forces do you think, come to that how many Irish nationals were?

    Most young soldiers in the world aren`t forced to sacrifice their lives for American oil interests in the middle east.
  • mindsetmindset Posts: 23,949
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    Dub2 wrote: »
    You have a strongly unionist family, and nothing wrong with that. I was thinking more of the average Scottish family where the younger members are likely to be in favour of Scottish independence. As for a No vote, i would be more worried that David Cameron is waiting for that particular outcome before he announces sending yet more young Scottish soldiers off to die in the middle East.

    Vote Yes to no more Scottish youth being murdered on foreign fields for the benefit of the English ruling classes.

    The British Army has never had any trouble recruiting Irish citizens to fight our wars for us, even when those masterminds in Dublin made it a criminal offence for them to do so. Should Scotland choose independence, the UK will continue to recruit as many Scots as she wants.

    But in the meantime, thankyou Ireland!
  • LostFoolLostFool Posts: 90,623
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    Zac_Jones wrote: »
    If it's an extremely narrow YES vote by less than 1%, should Cameron block Scottish independence?

    No. If you think he's unpopular now then consider what it would be like if he tried to block the result of the vote. I'm not even sure he could if he wanted.

    There is no doubt that Cameron has trouble to deal with whatever the result but things aren't looking rosy for Miliband either. He has lost control of his party in Scotland and almost got lynched on the streets yesterday. His chances of keeping his 41 MPs in Scotland aren't looking good.

    Whatever the result, Parliament should be recalled next week. MPs should be dealing with the fallout of the vote not fannying around at party conferences.
  • AbewestAbewest Posts: 3,017
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    Zac_Jones wrote: »

    Seeing Brown today made me realise how much of a mistake we made in kicking him out. I've never seen Cameron, Clegg or Blair put in such a performance.

    He'd lost his way back then, seemed to be more interested in point scoring against his nemesis Blair, than showing any real passion for the job in hand.

    Looks like he's over that now, and he really was on fire. The No campaign could have done with some of that heat.
  • momma11momma11 Posts: 3,843
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    boddism wrote: »
    Been on the sharp end of online debate tonight.

    Some disputing claims (from both sides) of aggressive supporters (on both sides)

    anyone heard any stories about this kinda behaviour from either side?

    Im asking because Im hearing conflicting accounts/stories.

    The only confirmed reports I've heard are about Jim Murphy being egged by a Yes supporter , the threats against Alex Salmond , woman being kicked by a Better Together Campaigner and the pensioner who was attacked whilst campaigning for the Yes movement .
    All the others I've seen are those printed in the media of unconfirmed attacks by the Yes supporters. and these only in the last few days .
    My neighbours are voting NO , I know this because they have a great big poster in their window and stickers on their car , so are 4 others in the street .
    No-one has had their windows broken or their cars vandalised .
    I'm not saying it hasn't happened , but I don't believe it's as widespread as the media would have everyone believe .
    There are numpties on both sides , don't tar us all with the same brush .
  • Dub2Dub2 Posts: 2,862
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    Any reason it can't be considered civilised now in the Union, where evenmore diversity of views are around?

    Yet the Scottish people aren`t represented in Government?

    Scots, please vote Yes to elect your own Government.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 181
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    I am rather depressed about the standard of debate from both sides at all levels.

    So much has not been discussed.

    For example, if the iScotland has a more open immigration policy, rUK will have to consider border controls very seriously, to prevent Scotland being a back door to rUK for terrorists and others. This rarely gets mentioned in debate, and is usually scoffed at, but it's the only realistic response for rUK in such circumstances.
  • Gary_LandyFanGary_LandyFan Posts: 3,824
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    Dub2 wrote: »
    Most young soldiers in the world aren`t forced to sacrifice their lives for American oil interests in the middle east.

    I can personally see the Scottish army becoming Rent-An-Army to pay for the delusions promised for Independence...
  • benjaminibenjamini Posts: 32,066
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    Dub2 wrote: »
    Yet the Scottish people aren`t represented in Government?

    Scots, please vote Yes to elect your own Government.

    Your damned right. We have an SNP goverment that I didn't vote for.
  • mRebelmRebel Posts: 24,882
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    lizbet wrote: »
    Yes that's what I fear too. There will be a lot of unhappy people on Friday morning, and if it's YES, many will feel brushed aside and be forgotten even though so many did not want Independence. :(

    If Yes wins it won't be long before Yes voters are disappointed! When the promises of the SNP aren't fulfilled, like when they don't get currency union and continuing membership of the EU for a start, they are going to be angrily demanding an explanation from Slamond and co. I don't want Scotland to leave the UK, as I'm an Englishman who likes Scotland and have had many Scots friends over the years, though I do accept it's the Scots right to decide. And if the majority vote Yes, it will be interesting to hear the excuses of the SNP as to why they can't deliver their promises. I expect they've got those excuses ready.
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