Wow Three got a good deal in Ireland didn't they? But they've still got good spectrum.
What's the point in that link?
Are you really trying to compare Virgin Media's duct and fibre network with BT's? Bare in mind every BT exchange has fibre to it, BT ducts obviously go to every tiny little village up and down the UK. And for every cell site that is fed via fibre currenly it is BT who provide it.
Notice this, in the FAQ section of VM's site:
"How much of the country will your backhaul network cover?
Mobile backhaul from Virgin Media Business will reach about 50% of UK mainland cell sites."
Not as much of it though Mike, they got the least of the spectrum. Where as it's O2 & Vodafone in bed in the UK, in Ireland it's 3 and Vodafone site sharing with a joint company looking after upgrades and site maintenance, sharing equipment etc. It is expected there will be further Vodafone and 3 integration in Ireland like Australia.
O2 doesn't really have anyone to pair with unless they join the incumbent telecoms company Meteor, which is really just Eircom, the Irish landline provider / Irish BT if you like.
Wow Three got a good deal in Ireland didn't they? But they've still got good spectrum.
What's the point in that link?
Are you really trying to compare Virgin Media's duct and fibre network with BT's? Bare in mind every BT exchange has fibre to it, BT ducts obviously go to every tiny little village up and down the UK. And for every cell site that is fed via fibre currenly it is BT who provide it.
Notice this, in the FAQ section of VM's site:
"How much of the country will your backhaul network cover?
Mobile backhaul from Virgin Media Business will reach about 50% of UK mainland cell sites."
Yes that's why 3 / EE have a dual backhaul deal with BT and Virgin Media, they have contracted both. Virgin Business also has a lot of commercial agreements too, don't just think of it as the home cable network, it's far beyond that.
Part of the £100M agreement though is every single cell site will have fibre, even if it's not from Virgin, all linking into the 14 aggregation points.
Yes that's why 3 / EE have a dual backhaul deal with BT and Virgin Media, they have contracted both. Virgin Business also has a lot of commercial agreements too, don't just think of it as the home cable network, it's far beyond that.
Part of the £100M agreement though is every single cell site will have fibre, even if it's not from Virgin, all linking into the 14 aggregation points.
Fibre to every cell is a great idea but how the hell do they achieve it?
Take an Orange monopole I drive by every day. It's EDGE at the mo but will almost certainly be integrated into MBNL.
It's literally in the middle of nowhere. Probably 5 miles from any town and at least 3 miles from the nearest village (Loddiswell).
Loddiswell does have its own BT exchange though. They're not seriously going to dig a 3 mile trench and run fibre to it are they??
Do current line of sight microwave technologies carry enough data over a decent distance these days?
Fibre to every cell is a great idea but how the hell do they achieve it?
Take an Orange monopole I drive by every day. It's EDGE at the mo but will almost certainly be integrated into MBNL.
It's literally in the middle of nowhere. Probably 5 miles from any town and at least 3 miles from the nearest village (Loddiswell).
Loddiswell does have its own BT exchange though. They're not seriously going to dig a 3 mile trench and run fibre to it are they??
Do current line of sight microwave technologies carry enough data over a decent distance these days?
They would just like any business that needs fibre and is in the country + willing to pay for it.
You say almost certainly, but you know a lot of Orange sites are being decommissioned. If it's staying it'll have fibre.
Microwave only provides about 135Mbps, which is not enough for LTE backhaul.
Fibre to every cell is a great idea but how the hell do they achieve it?
Take an Orange monopole I drive by every day. It's EDGE at the mo but will almost certainly be integrated into MBNL.
It's literally in the middle of nowhere. Probably 5 miles from any town and at least 3 miles from the nearest village (Loddiswell).
Loddiswell does have its own BT exchange though. They're not seriously going to dig a 3 mile trench and run fibre to it are they??
Do current line of sight microwave technologies carry enough data over a decent distance these days?
The way it is done currently is that a lot of the time there is space in the existing BT ducts to get the fibre as close as possible to the cell site. Then they'd dig a duct for the last bit.
Yes that's why 3 / EE have a dual backhaul deal with BT and Virgin Media, they have contracted both. Virgin Business also has a lot of commercial agreements too, don't just think of it as the home cable network, it's far beyond that.
Part of the £100M agreement though is every single cell site will have fibre, even if it's not from Virgin, all linking into the 14 aggregation points.
It's still a fraction of BT's. One thing I wonder though about Virgin is are they even aware of all of the ducts that they do own in areas close to their cable tv network? With all of the companies they gobbled up over the years, there are many dormant cable networks and unused ducts. There are plenty of industrial estates and retail parks that were cabled for cable tv in the 90s but are now inactive as they never got upgraded to Hybrid Fibre Coax for instance.
How do they do it currently? A lot of the time there is space in the existing BT ducts to get the fibre as close as possible to the cell site. Then they'd dig a duct for the last bit.
No idea to be honest.
They are providing a 1 Gig network to the cell site today, but 10 Gig access with 100 Gig aggregation built into roadmap for when LTE kicks off bigtime.
Virgin say:
Some areas of the U.K. will remain out of the range of Virgin's high-speed network for the time being.
"Most mobile networks have some microwave radio backhaul, usually in rural areas, and these are probably not cellsites that we'll want to dig fibre to,"
However remember MBNL is keeping their arrangement with BT as well.
I guess it's possible some rural sites will remain on microwave links, but the initial information from Virgin was every site, so we'll see I guess.
They are providing a 1 Gig network to the cell site today, but 10 Gig access with 100 Gig aggregation built into roadmap for when LTE kicks off bigtime.
Virgin say:
Some areas of the U.K. will remain out of the range of Virgin's high-speed network for the time being.
"Most mobile networks have some microwave radio backhaul, usually in rural areas, and these are probably not cellsites that we'll want to dig fibre to,"
However remember MBNL is keeping their arrangement with BT as well.
I guess it's possible some rural sites will remain on microwave links, but the initial information from Virgin was every site, so we'll see I guess.
Sorry I didn't phrase that well. I wasn't asking the question I was answering it. That IS how BT currently get fibre to a cell site if they are asked to. They'll often have an existing duct that gets pretty close to it.
And for every cell site that is fed via fibre currenly it is BT who provide it.
Really as many of the Three & upgraded EE sites are Fujitsu Virgin Media fed. Some have a BT backup but are not that 'fast', presumably to keep voice & text going in the event of failure.
I had heard a rumour they had investigated getting European 4G licences specifically the UK. Not heard anything in a few months though. Why they would want it i am not so sure.
As for digging up for Fibre there is a Golf course in Aberdeenshire that was dug across almost diagonally just to provide Fibre to a multi operator mast. I'm not sure who the work was done for but it wasn't BT, nearest village was 5 miles away and they did seem to dig all the way to said village!!
As for digging up for Fibre there is a Golf course in Aberdeenshire that was dug across almost diagonally just to provide Fibre to a multi operator mast. I'm not sure who the work was done for but it wasn't BT, nearest village was 5 miles away and they did seem to dig all the way to said village!!
Not sure who else it could have been for other than BT or VM. Unless someone also has a contract but to my knowledge its just those two.
Was probably Telent digging on behalf of Openreach.
They would just like any business that needs fibre and is in the country + willing to pay for it.
You say almost certainly, but you know a lot of Orange sites are being decommissioned. If it's staying it'll have fibre.
Microwave only provides about 135Mbps, which is not enough for LTE backhaul.
There's no way this one would be taken out. There would be a very large hole in coverage if they did. It's not been there for that long and before it was, there was a serious lack of signal for about 2 miles on three separate roads that intersect near it. It is really very rural. Surrounded by fields in every direction for a couple of miles.
Most of the telephone lines running to nearby farmhouses are above ground on poles. Do you know if they can run the fibre over these?
I have a feeling the site might be a remote radio head borrowing and repeating spectrum from a main transmitter. It's right on a tiny lane so I'll go visit it tomorrow to see if it has a large cabinet and air conditioners or just a small cabinet which would suggest it was a repeater.
I read the 135Mbps thing too. Can't believe in this day and age they can't get faster microwave links.
Absolutely they can, and BT do for businesses sometimes but I've never seen it done like that to a cell site.
Well I don't see why they couldn't. Especially from this exchange. It's BT only (no LLU) so they own everything. I guess if EE say they need fibre to that cell, clearly they are going to run it over the poles. Should imagine a 3 mile stretch would only take a couple of days with minimal cost. Whereas digging a very long trench and getting permission from all the farmers would be hellish
They would just like any business that needs fibre and is in the country + willing to pay for it.
You say almost certainly, but you know a lot of Orange sites are being decommissioned. If it's staying it'll have fibre.
Microwave only provides about 135Mbps, which is not enough for LTE backhaul.
Thine, do you know anything about the rollout of the 2G refresh?
Like an anorak I popped up to that EDGE cell today. It does have air conditioners and a large compound with 2 or 3 cabinets so I guess it's not a repeater cell.
The funny thing is though that is gives really fast EDGE speeds. Much faster than normal. Wondering if this is the new Huawei 2G kit in there.
Normally to get fast EDGE you have to have at least 4 bars and be stationary. Here are the results with a 3 bar signal moving away at 40Mph at a distance of roughly half a mile.
Test Date: Nov 16, 2012 18:03
Connection Type: Cellular
Server: Guernsey, GB
Download: 22.9 kB/s
Upload: 3.8 kB/s
Ping: 421 ms
It will stream BBC live news (from the app) albiet at a reduced frame rate but always reliably.
It's so rural, it's pretty much overgrown Hahaha.
Stupidly I didn't look to see what was written on the cabinets.
Well I don't see why they couldn't. Especially from this exchange. It's BT only (no LLU) so they own everything. I guess if EE say they need fibre to that cell, clearly they are going to run it over the poles. Should imagine a 3 mile stretch would only take a couple of days with minimal cost. Whereas digging a very long trench and getting permission from all the farmers would be hellish
Technically yes they definitely can. I guess Openreach would give them two options at two vastly different prices. But I expect EE would choose to have it ducted whatever the cost. It's not worth the risk of doing it by poles, bad weather or accidents can bring down the overhead fibre cables. Too risky when your customers are relying on a service.
Also, the fact it is not LLU at the exchange doesn't come into it. All ducts going into the BT exchanges are owned by BT, others rent space on BT owned fibre effectively.
I don't see how thats any different to BT digging fibre to every urban cabinet. Costs a bomb but you gotta do it. Rural although longer runs it is faster and much cheaper per mile to do.
There seems to a massive assumption that EE are upgrading every mast to include 4G or 3G. They aren't many rural sites already have fibre to them anyways. I also don't believe that is the onlt microwave technology available to them as in Aberdeen they have crazy speed microwave links to the rigs with tiny a latency similar to fibre..
I don't see how thats any different to BT digging fibre to every urban cabinet. Costs a bomb but you gotta do it.
But that's what I'm trying to get across. BT don't need to dig much for the fibre cabinets, they pass the fibre through their existing ducts and actually try and locate the fibre cabinets as close to the ducts as possible for that very reason.
But that's what I'm trying to get across. BT don't need to dig much for the fibre cabinets, they pass the fibre through their existing ducts and actually try and locate the fibre cabinets as close to the ducts as possible for that very reason.
However there are not many fibre loops in the countryside, however for most rural locations i bet that they are not that far to the nearest branch off a loop. Fair enough properly barren locations might be an issue like the highlands, lake district or parts of wales etc. However two things with this is that 2G (cough 4G) covers a huge area with one mast and second very little of the population live in these areas.
Also i imagine if we talk about 4G coverage exclusively (therefore the need for fibre) that government funding may pay for the last of these locations.
I don't see how thats any different to BT digging fibre to every urban cabinet. Costs a bomb but you gotta do it. Rural although longer runs it is faster and much cheaper per mile to do.
There seems to a massive assumption that EE are upgrading every mast to include 4G or 3G. They aren't many rural sites already have fibre to them anyways. I also don't believe that is the onlt microwave technology available to them as in Aberdeen they have crazy speed microwave links to the rigs with tiny a latency similar to fibre..
Yeah, Thine mentioned the 135Mbps microwave links but I'm sure they were this speed back in the 90s when 2G was rolling out. Surely speeds have increased massively since then.
If this was the case then the cell I posted about wouldn't be a problem as it links via microwave to a main BTS nearer to where fibre would be available.
However there are not many fibre loops in the countryside, however for most rural locations i bet that they are not that far to the nearest branch off a loop. Fair enough properly barren locations might be an issue like the highlands, lake district or parts of wales etc. However two things with this is that 2G (cough 4G) covers a huge area with one mast and second very little of the population live in these
I know, in rural locations they'd have to push the fibre through the existing ducts to the mast from the nearest BT exchange which already has plenty of fibre to it regardless of where it is.
Been reading some articles on microwave tech and it appears speeds are up to 1Gbs or more over fairly large distances. However this still doesn't compare to fibre, nothing does since it carries virtually unlimited speeds. I guess therefore if I was building a network I too would run fibre to every cell regardless of cost. No one alive today would ever see it needing to be replaced.
Regardless of the future tech in the cabinets (4G, 5G etc..), the backhaul will always cope.
EDIT: just found an article stating that speeds of 100 Terrabits had been achieved using different colours of light. Three months of seemless HD Video in one second! :eek:
Anyone know what speeds are currently being achieved over the fibre that BT and Virgin are laying?
Comments
Wow Three got a good deal in Ireland didn't they? But they've still got good spectrum.
What's the point in that link?
Are you really trying to compare Virgin Media's duct and fibre network with BT's? Bare in mind every BT exchange has fibre to it, BT ducts obviously go to every tiny little village up and down the UK. And for every cell site that is fed via fibre currenly it is BT who provide it.
Notice this, in the FAQ section of VM's site:
"How much of the country will your backhaul network cover?
Mobile backhaul from Virgin Media Business will reach about 50% of UK mainland cell sites."
O2 doesn't really have anyone to pair with unless they join the incumbent telecoms company Meteor, which is really just Eircom, the Irish landline provider / Irish BT if you like.
Yes that's why 3 / EE have a dual backhaul deal with BT and Virgin Media, they have contracted both. Virgin Business also has a lot of commercial agreements too, don't just think of it as the home cable network, it's far beyond that.
Part of the £100M agreement though is every single cell site will have fibre, even if it's not from Virgin, all linking into the 14 aggregation points.
Fibre to every cell is a great idea but how the hell do they achieve it?
Take an Orange monopole I drive by every day. It's EDGE at the mo but will almost certainly be integrated into MBNL.
It's literally in the middle of nowhere. Probably 5 miles from any town and at least 3 miles from the nearest village (Loddiswell).
Loddiswell does have its own BT exchange though. They're not seriously going to dig a 3 mile trench and run fibre to it are they??
Do current line of sight microwave technologies carry enough data over a decent distance these days?
They would just like any business that needs fibre and is in the country + willing to pay for it.
You say almost certainly, but you know a lot of Orange sites are being decommissioned. If it's staying it'll have fibre.
Microwave only provides about 135Mbps, which is not enough for LTE backhaul.
The way it is done currently is that a lot of the time there is space in the existing BT ducts to get the fibre as close as possible to the cell site. Then they'd dig a duct for the last bit.
It's still a fraction of BT's. One thing I wonder though about Virgin is are they even aware of all of the ducts that they do own in areas close to their cable tv network? With all of the companies they gobbled up over the years, there are many dormant cable networks and unused ducts. There are plenty of industrial estates and retail parks that were cabled for cable tv in the 90s but are now inactive as they never got upgraded to Hybrid Fibre Coax for instance.
No idea to be honest.
They are providing a 1 Gig network to the cell site today, but 10 Gig access with 100 Gig aggregation built into roadmap for when LTE kicks off bigtime.
Virgin say:
Some areas of the U.K. will remain out of the range of Virgin's high-speed network for the time being.
"Most mobile networks have some microwave radio backhaul, usually in rural areas, and these are probably not cellsites that we'll want to dig fibre to,"
However remember MBNL is keeping their arrangement with BT as well.
I guess it's possible some rural sites will remain on microwave links, but the initial information from Virgin was every site, so we'll see I guess.
Sorry I didn't phrase that well. I wasn't asking the question I was answering it. That IS how BT currently get fibre to a cell site if they are asked to. They'll often have an existing duct that gets pretty close to it.
Really as many of the Three & upgraded EE sites are Fujitsu Virgin Media fed. Some have a BT backup but are not that 'fast', presumably to keep voice & text going in the event of failure.
They have a MVNO UK Presence on EE.
http://www.telecoms.com/44733/china-telecom-launches-uk-mvno/
I had heard a rumour they had investigated getting European 4G licences specifically the UK. Not heard anything in a few months though. Why they would want it i am not so sure.
As for digging up for Fibre there is a Golf course in Aberdeenshire that was dug across almost diagonally just to provide Fibre to a multi operator mast. I'm not sure who the work was done for but it wasn't BT, nearest village was 5 miles away and they did seem to dig all the way to said village!!
Not sure who else it could have been for other than BT or VM. Unless someone also has a contract but to my knowledge its just those two.
Was probably Telent digging on behalf of Openreach.
Don't forget C&W is a backhaul provider to some networks.
There's no way this one would be taken out. There would be a very large hole in coverage if they did. It's not been there for that long and before it was, there was a serious lack of signal for about 2 miles on three separate roads that intersect near it. It is really very rural. Surrounded by fields in every direction for a couple of miles.
Most of the telephone lines running to nearby farmhouses are above ground on poles. Do you know if they can run the fibre over these?
I have a feeling the site might be a remote radio head borrowing and repeating spectrum from a main transmitter. It's right on a tiny lane so I'll go visit it tomorrow to see if it has a large cabinet and air conditioners or just a small cabinet which would suggest it was a repeater.
I read the 135Mbps thing too. Can't believe in this day and age they can't get faster microwave links.
Absolutely they can, and BT do for businesses sometimes but I've never seen it done like that to a cell site.
Thine, do you know anything about the rollout of the 2G refresh?
Like an anorak I popped up to that EDGE cell today. It does have air conditioners and a large compound with 2 or 3 cabinets so I guess it's not a repeater cell.
The funny thing is though that is gives really fast EDGE speeds. Much faster than normal. Wondering if this is the new Huawei 2G kit in there.
Normally to get fast EDGE you have to have at least 4 bars and be stationary. Here are the results with a 3 bar signal moving away at 40Mph at a distance of roughly half a mile.
Test Date: Nov 16, 2012 18:03
Connection Type: Cellular
Server: Guernsey, GB
Download: 22.9 kB/s
Upload: 3.8 kB/s
Ping: 421 ms
Nearly 23 Kilobytes ( about 190Kbps) in these conditions is unheard of.
here are some pics of the cell.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/30726557/IMG_0576.JPG
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/30726557/IMG_0577.JPG
It will stream BBC live news (from the app) albiet at a reduced frame rate but always reliably.
It's so rural, it's pretty much overgrown Hahaha.
Stupidly I didn't look to see what was written on the cabinets.
That's fine. You seem pretty clued up on some of this stuff that's all. I'll go see what's written on the cabinets tomorrow.
Technically yes they definitely can. I guess Openreach would give them two options at two vastly different prices. But I expect EE would choose to have it ducted whatever the cost. It's not worth the risk of doing it by poles, bad weather or accidents can bring down the overhead fibre cables. Too risky when your customers are relying on a service.
Also, the fact it is not LLU at the exchange doesn't come into it. All ducts going into the BT exchanges are owned by BT, others rent space on BT owned fibre effectively.
How the hell much is that going to cost?
There seems to a massive assumption that EE are upgrading every mast to include 4G or 3G. They aren't many rural sites already have fibre to them anyways. I also don't believe that is the onlt microwave technology available to them as in Aberdeen they have crazy speed microwave links to the rigs with tiny a latency similar to fibre..
But that's what I'm trying to get across. BT don't need to dig much for the fibre cabinets, they pass the fibre through their existing ducts and actually try and locate the fibre cabinets as close to the ducts as possible for that very reason.
However there are not many fibre loops in the countryside, however for most rural locations i bet that they are not that far to the nearest branch off a loop. Fair enough properly barren locations might be an issue like the highlands, lake district or parts of wales etc. However two things with this is that 2G (cough 4G) covers a huge area with one mast and second very little of the population live in these areas.
Also i imagine if we talk about 4G coverage exclusively (therefore the need for fibre) that government funding may pay for the last of these locations.
Yeah, Thine mentioned the 135Mbps microwave links but I'm sure they were this speed back in the 90s when 2G was rolling out. Surely speeds have increased massively since then.
If this was the case then the cell I posted about wouldn't be a problem as it links via microwave to a main BTS nearer to where fibre would be available.
I know, in rural locations they'd have to push the fibre through the existing ducts to the mast from the nearest BT exchange which already has plenty of fibre to it regardless of where it is.
Regardless of the future tech in the cabinets (4G, 5G etc..), the backhaul will always cope.
EDIT: just found an article stating that speeds of 100 Terrabits had been achieved using different colours of light. Three months of seemless HD Video in one second! :eek:
Anyone know what speeds are currently being achieved over the fibre that BT and Virgin are laying?