Boiler is about to go....any experienced advice
subversive
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Hi,
We got a vaillant 242e (its quite old). I noticed that the water pressure kept on going down. So after several times of refilling it, I noticed that it is coming out of the outlet pipe on the boiler (outside). Then I noticed that the red light would come on randomly and it would have trouble firing up.
I have searched on-line and it seems it needs a new expansion vessel or expansion vessel valve and a heat exchanger.
Are these expensive items? Is it worth repairing it?
Any advice would be helpful.
I have a gas safe plumber coming in the morning to give me a quote.
Thanks
We got a vaillant 242e (its quite old). I noticed that the water pressure kept on going down. So after several times of refilling it, I noticed that it is coming out of the outlet pipe on the boiler (outside). Then I noticed that the red light would come on randomly and it would have trouble firing up.
I have searched on-line and it seems it needs a new expansion vessel or expansion vessel valve and a heat exchanger.
Are these expensive items? Is it worth repairing it?
Any advice would be helpful.
I have a gas safe plumber coming in the morning to give me a quote.
Thanks
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Comments
These can fail.
They are designed to open and let water out when the pressure is too high to avoid a big bang!
You may be lucky and just need that replaced. On some boilers they can be done by someone to is a practical D.I.Y. er.
I did mine many years ago on my old Potterton boiler.
Thanks for your reply. I need to find my boilers manual and see where I can get that part from.
Hypothetically speaking, if the pressure relief valve is replaced and the system is still loosing pressure, what else could it be?
I know the central heating pipework isn't leaking, as I've spent three days lifting up boards and checking and its all dry. I don't this just as a precaution.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaillant-Thermocompact-Pressure-Relief-190717/dp/B0073ESP1W
There were many other results for the part - several boiler parts companies seem to have it in stock.
Please don't just buy and replace it without proper advice though. Wait to see what the gas safe engineer says tomorrow.
Best of luck, because it's a rotten time of year for the heating to conk out. x
If you are losing water through the outside pipe, it is coming from the pressure relief valve and as far as I am aware, it can only do that for two reasons.
1) The pressure is too high, so the pressure relief valve opens.
2) The pressure relief valve is faulty.
Has any work been done on the boiler lately?
If the pressure relief valve has been opened automatically or manually, it is possible that a piece of grit or some muck is stopping the valve seal properly.
If that is the case, you could try manually opening the valve when you have normal pressure and let out some water in the hope that it removes this grit / muck.
As you have a gas safe person coming out today, maybe just mention the pressure relief valve as it may persuade him to be honest if he thinks you know a little about the workings of a boiler and perhaps not attempt to rip you off with a big repair bill if he was that way inclined.
Again, I stress that I am not a plumber, but I did keep my old boiler going for many years when really, it should have been scrapped.
Read the manual and google.
It does come across as a faulty EV, and you will have to make decision.
The 242E was a good boiler although fiddly to repair.
If your system is loosing pressure via the PVR and not the CH system itself, then yes obvious culprit will be the EV or the PVR.
You might simply get away with pumping the EV back up via the Schrader type valve.
This fix might last a few days, might last a couple of years.
Next is to check the hose/connection to the PVR and this can get jammed up with gunk and operate the PVR and the PVR might need replacing.
If the EV is screwed then consider a new boiler, although a new EV is available but costly.
If by pressurising the EV it makes the boiler keep pressure, depressurise your boiler, keeping the gauge just above .7 .8 bar but under one might help it some.
At some time you will require a new boiler, while your old boiler is still going, even if you have to keep topping it up--- now would be a very-very good time to introduce a chemical cleaner, flush your system and then add a system inhibitor.
Keep the cleaner in for at least a week, longer if possible.
Should you decide on a new unit Valliant is as good as a Bosch but have their weak points.
In any new system installed add an external filter.
Is there a way I can check if it is the EV?
I have checked online, it costs around £120+VAT. However replacing the current would mean taking the boiler down and for me, as much as a DIYer I am it would be a mission.
How can I tell how the system is loosing pressure? Although I see water dripping out of the outlet pipe after I had filled it up. The gauge just goes to zero after a while.
the gauge is like this one in the picture, bottom right. Infact this is what the control panel looks like.
http://www.maxperience.com/materials/posts/3/1/7/317ab0823a0dc1c5_vaillant_front_260px.jpg
When you say depressurise the boiler, you mean drain the system right?
Just as a precaution I have been looking at the Vaillant Ecotech 831 boiler. But I would love for a good engineer to fix what I have now and make it right as I believe it still has a few years of life left.
I also noticed another thing, when the hot water is running, the water is coming hot and luke warm (not cold) and when I checked the boiler, it wasn't fired up properly, the lights would light up from the bottom and then go back down again.
The diaphragms on the Turbomaxes are one of their weakest points IMO we have replaced so many.
The simplest method of testing an EV is to remove the dust cap press the centre pin of the valve, if water comes out, it's a faulty EV and you will need to replace. If only a slight puff of air, drain the CH system and disconnect the filling hose. Using a foot pump, pressurise EV no more then 1 bar, then repressurise/fill CH system to 1.2 bar cold. Should boiler gauge rise to 2.5/ 3 bar when hot it will be a new EV required.
Should all work OK retest the EV in about a week to make sure pressure has held, CH system fill pressure should hold at 1.2 bar cold, you can drop this to .9 or 1 bar,-- boiler should operate ok.
Having done the above should PVR operate, it is a faulty EV but maybe the PVR needs replacing to.
It is possible to fit an external EV and leave the old one in place.
As to hot and luke warm water and EV replacement will fix this although there might be something else going on.
As to the 831,--- a good, reliable boiler, again IMO over engineered, but a solid boiler.
We have used the £300 cover we get with our Halifax current account twice for our boiler over the years. John Lewis Contents insurance comes with £1000 cover (as long as your boiler is serviced once a year)
Thank you for your reply Seacam. I have been busy at work, so couldn't reply on time. I called a boiler man, who came on Saturday and said that he can fix it, but in his honest opinion he said that due to the age of the boiler I would be spending money on it again in couple of years. He will be giving me a quote for two boilers, namely the ecotech pro 24 and ecotech plus 831.
He said that he will install a magnetic limescale thingy on the main coming in. he said it will change the way the limescale works and it will not stick to the insides to the boiler. However I wasn't sure how safe it was for the family to consume water? I forgot to ask him that. He did say it was safe.
He also said that I won't need a magnacleaner installed as the system is a closed system and after he finishes work, the system will not loose pressure. Should I get the magnacleaner installed or should I go with his suggestion?
I think the current system is a 24kw boiler. What is the difference in a 24kw and 31kw boiler?
He said he will give me a price for two different room stats, one will be a simple one and the other will be like a climate control type stat. the expensive one will be around £90.
I am waiting for his quote.
in the meantime........the following
I have noticed that when I fire the system up, either by turning central heating on or turning hot water on, I can see the sparks and the it lights up, meaning blue flames, etc. Then it goes down and the fire/flames go out.
The CH works fine when it does, but while its running and the hot water is turned on, it shuts down.
I am lucky to get hot water out of the system, it fires up, flames go on and go out.
I am thinking maybe its the gas valve? I have seen that the pipe from the gas meter is the small pipe, not the big one. The plumber will install a new larger feed.
Fit a mag' filter for sludge, more then anything for CH side of things, if you live in a very hard water system then fitting a Fry reducer to prevent lime scale will help the DHW side of things.
For both items there are several brands and various prices and you don't need the most expensive, the least will do the same job.
As for a Fry you can get single item use or whole of house. From a gas consumption and heating out put, perspective,--- large, as I have just written in another thread, to small a boiler is as bad as overkill, size of property, how many rads',-- to some extent the larger the KW boiler, the greater the DHW delivery, how well the property is insulated.
Very simply put, the more KW the more rads' can be fitted, or use of larger rads'. Unless you are into expensive heating controls to achieve specific results, there won't be to much difference, the £90 one you will be able to set temp' time and portable. Could be but I don't think so, sounds more like a screwed heat exchanger. That's fine, 22mm should suffice.
If I remember correctly, he was saying that its good for the boiler to fit a limescale thingy. when I receive his exact quote, I'll run it past you. I've emailed him to include a magnacleaner.
We have 9 rads, 1 bathroom and one upstairs toilet with a small sink. We are thinking of going into the loft later this year, so another rad there and possible ensuite.
To be honest, I will go for the simple stat, infact I will ask if the current one will work with the new boiler.
I'll be draining the system tomorrow to fill the ev and testing it out like you said. Is there a way that I can drain just the boiler instead of all the system?
Also I had a brass metal thing fitted to a pipe under the boiler but I can't remember what it is for - limescale or sludge - or what it is called. At my last boiler service it was all clean as a whistle, he said. So it's all good.
If I remember right, you can get an extended, seven-year guarantee provided you have the boiler serviced in the first year - as opposed to the standard five-year guarantee.
I have to repressurise my expansion vessel at least once a year. Now I just guess it, but when I tried to do it properly, it didn't need draining completely, just enough water drained off for the pressure to be zero.
Then the expansion vessel was 'inflated' with a car pump to about 1.0 bar. At this point the CH water pressure should also be 1.0 or so.
As for a mag' cleaner, they do a job and in many cases a good one but so would flushing and replacing the inhibitor every 12/18 months, in fact do the same job if not slightly better. From your thread I have gathered you are very happy with the Vaillant brand so I answered you within that constraint without suggesting alternatives.
The 831 is a great combi and will handle your present needs and an extra rad' as would the Worcester 29CDi, they almost on par with each other for CH output and DHW delivery but the Worcester being a few pounds cheaper
However where the 831 will struggle is with the addition of the ensuite,-- with that in mind you might want to consider the Worcester 34CDi, heat output will be greater then the 831 but not the over kill or cost of an 837 but more importantly the DHW rate of the 34CDi is greater then the 831 and compared to the 837 is around £150-£200 cheaper. Why not but you might want to consider pairing the new 831 with a VRT 50 stat' or something similar. You can,--- see Bart's post or my post 8, however I prefer when pumping up an EV- to drain older system right down.
Should the EV hold, when refilling and bleeding rads' don't let the system pressure go past 1.2 bar and on completion keep it at 1 or 1 .2 bar.
While I think your heat plate is on the way out among other things it might just be gunged up, could also be a simple sensor giving you grief as well as the EV and/or PRV
Do no harm to throw some X800 in, let it circulate for a week, run your hot water taps as well but you must flush your system a couple of times, then throw in an inhibitor.
I'd certainly get a second or even third opinion about the boiler and most definitely not let a British Gas fitter anywhere near it, as they'll automatically tell you it needs replacing.
It should also be remembered they don't stop corrosion or sludge forming, they do capture some of it though and stop some of it getting back in to the system and to that end they do work but they won't clean an all ready dirty system, a chemical clean will do that. I'm not sure it's necessary, Sub already wants a new boiler, however she should get two or three more quotes.
Hi Seacam,
I drained the system and pumped up the EV.
No water coming out of the outlet pipe so far.
The EV was pumped to 1.1bar as when I tried taking it out a lot of air escaped due to the bike pump thingy not coming off the valve head. So I done extra to compensate.
The water was filled to 1 bar.
The CH comes on right away, no need to reset it. Its been on for an hour. Rads heating up.
The CH pressure gauge went up .3 points from 1.2 to 1.6bar and its holding there steady. Mind you, I didn't drain the system 100% and some of the water was still hot, so I will do a proper drain tomorrow.
What type of chemical cleaner can I put in the system. I know last time you recommended a fernox x100, but that's a inhibitor and goes in after its cleaned, right?
The CH seems to be coming on and flames light up straight away. BUT its still early days and I need to see it running for more than 24hours to notice any problems.
The Hot Water however is failing to come on. The boiler fires up and then ignites only to die, leaving the red light on.
I have tried this with the CH running and without.
oh and a new boiler was recommended by the plumber as he felt it was too expensive to repair this one.
I have had one quote, which came around to £2800 for ecotech 831 with magna cleaner, limescale, etc. However the guy didn't even check where the gas meter was. He called back after 2 hours asking where it was.
The second guy who came sounded clued up, he explained what the EV was, etc. I am waiting for a quote from him. He is a one man show, a approved vaillant installer. He is the one who said after a powerflush and chemical clean, I won't need a magna filter as the system will be a closed system. he said he recommends a magnetic limescale thingy and he will put in a inhibitor with a leak sealer.
Thanks for your help.
In no particular order.
I.6 is to high even if it's holding, drain down to 1 ,2 bar especially so with a suspect EV.
(A note on cleaners)
Sentinal X800 is very good, it's best used with flush machines but can be introduced manually, it's a steel toe cap treatment and shouldn't cause any pin holes, ( but it might ), your system might require a double dose, do remember it may clean dirty systems, get them running better and issues associated with a dirty system, it won't fix other faults.
When using X800, you don't need to drain the system, just empty it a little, then introduce it, but-but-but, while you can leave it in for a couple of weeks or so, when flushing make sure your rad' valves are fully open and flush a couple of times, if not more, this is especially so if you are leaving your rads' in place and not flushing them in the garden.
This will mean you keeping note of position of rad' valves, when refilling and so on.
Sentinal do another product called, "Deposit Remover", this treatment again is a steel toe cap job but with a sledge hammer behind it and it can/does cause pin hole leaks ).
( another note on cleaners )
It's not the cleaner its self that causes pin hole leaks, rather the resulting action of them, sludge and lime scale can plug these holes until removed/dissolved.
Having cleaned and flushed the system introduce X100 or even a Screwfix own product, it will do. As I wrote it could be the gas valve, equally it could be a screwed or gunged heat exchanger, a faulty sensor or PRV. Ok,--it may well be to expensive to repair,---but it is a good boiler,-- but it won't cope with the further demand you intend putting on it. £2800, just to install an 831 and upgrade a supply, there's a better deal to be had. Go with who your happy with. A magnet has no effect on lime scale and closed system or not a mag' filter will do some good.
A powerflush on a boiler that is to be replaced is of little value it may however do wonders for the rads' and pipework and save yourself the expense of chemical cleaners if your boiler is working at the moment but intend to replace soon.
The system, rads, etc are all cold. Heating has been turned off for nearly three hours now and the pressure has gone down to 0.9bar. I'm going to leave it turned off all night and check it in the morning.
Now if it goes up by turning the heating on, then that means a dodgy EV right?
Thanks for the cleaning advice, I done this last time aswell when I had issues with the DV and you recommended the same. Thanks
I won't be taking the rads off, they have been in place for 25 years and I don't want to disturb them. We had a power flush done 8 years ago, I think.
I'll just put some in manually and let it run for three weeks and flush and run three times.
Would it be a good idea to put anything else into the system in addition to the X100? I have seen on their website, they have things like leak sealer, limescale remover, etc?
It is a good boiler, only if I can find a good plumber to fix it. anyway, such is life.
If it was the gas valve, then it wouldn't flame up at all right? The CH flames up perfectly, infact the heating just went on now and the pressure is creeping up slowly. DOH.
£2800 for new boiler, supply and fit, power flush on CH system, limescale/water softener filter, inhibitor, new line (£100).
I have seen on vaillants website they have an estimated cost of installing this boiler and this is touching the top end of the price.
I am waiting for the second quote from the guy who is a one man show. I had a good vibe from him. He seemed passionate about his work.
Magnacleaner it is.
I won't powerflush the current boiler, I will do it manually.
okay, the pressure is now at 1.5bar with heating on. It went up from 0.9 bar (coldish) and holding at 1.5bar. That's after I pumped the EV with a foot pump. There is no water coming out of the outlet.
Thank you for your help and sorry about the repeat or dopy questions.:):blush::D
In this instance, you have been fortunate, it would seem the re-pressurising of the EV has resolved one issue for now, of course it may not last.
Pressure gauges are notoriously inaccurate and it is one of the reasons why I prefer to completely drain a system before re-pressurising an EV. Your welcome, I can't remember, but it would make sense. I don't blame you,---the good an 8 year old power flush had has long passed unless you kept up with the introducing cleaner, flushing and inhibitor. .
About right for an old system. The x 800 will remove/desolve most of the sludge and limescale after flushing,-- unless your system is leaking,-- don't bother with leak sealer. Yes, unless an intermittent fault. It's what I thought. As I wrote go with who you feel happy with, but get several quotes.
Liking a contractor is only one part of getting a good job done. I use Mag' as a general use for several brands, and you missed the point I was making, a Mag' Cleaner, will have no effect on lime scale, in other words it won't stick to a magnet.
Prevention is better then cure, to that end is why I advised an in-line scale reducer, either a one item or whole of house unit.
Once you are happy with the system as a whole and for reasons explained, drop pressure to 1.2 bar on gauge.
I think I'll drain the system tomorrow and get some of that X800 stuff.
It was around two years back.
Yes my Father used to do that. He told me that he would put in a cleaner, etc. He used to take care of the system.
The small heat exchanger has some green gunk on the top of it. I'll take a few pics and post them here in the morning.
Any ideas on what this intermittent fault could be?
Its had a new ignition thingy's two years ago,
Yes yes, I forgot, the second plumber said it won't stick to it, but it will change the way limescale works, so it won't stick to the insides to the boiler as much. Is that right?
He said he will fit a limescale magnet to the main line going into the boiler.
I'll send you a PM in the morning about the plumber.
It helps reduce lime scale, but it won't prevent it altogether forming,-- do they work?--yes.
A Mag' cleaner is a different device, they don't stop corrosion or sludge forming, they do capture some of it and stop some of it getting back in to the system and to that end they work,-- but,-- retro fitting won't clean or fix an all ready corroded or dirty system, a chemical clean will do that.
Thanks Seacam.
I have observed another thing. When the Hot water is turned ON and the heating is OFF, the Pressure needle goes to zero. When the hot water is turned off, then it returns to its normal position.
Here's the 15mm 401041 at Amazon for £35.85: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Scalemaster-Electrolytic-401041-Compression-Connections/dp/B003USASC4 and the data sheet and info from Scalemaster: http://scalemaster.co.uk/products/limescale-inhibitors/electrolytic-limescale-inhibitors/