Doctor Who - S8E11 - Dark Water - 1st Nov '14 - BBC One (HD) @ 8.15pm

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  • slouchingthatchslouchingthatch Posts: 2,351
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    mediarat wrote: »
    my assumption was that Missy had given Clara the number, yet Clara did not recognise missy which means they've missed something or the full mystery is yet to be revealed?
    To my mind, there's no reason to remember someone from a one-off meeting several months ago, where at the time she had no idea of its significance. I can't even remember the details of the person who served me at the petrol station this morning because it's just something I can't be bothered to remember. If I were to bump into them in the street in six months' time, I doubt I'd even remember seeing them before.
  • Sufyaan_KaziSufyaan_Kazi Posts: 3,862
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    When Missy holds up her hand t talk to Dr. Chang, is she wearing a teleporter round her wrist?
  • TRT1968TRT1968 Posts: 2,164
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    The_Judge_ wrote: »
    When Missy holds up her hand t talk to Dr. Chang, is she wearing a teleporter round her wrist?

    Probably a vortex manipulator.
  • elven62elven62 Posts: 396
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    Apologies if this is discussed earlier in thread, just watched and too many posts to read back through, but what do people think Clara was working out with all the post it notes at the very beginning? It was like she had had a brainstorming session, picked out things from her adventures and made some link to come to a major realisation about something (not just telling Danny she loved him surely).
  • slouchingthatchslouchingthatch Posts: 2,351
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    elven62 wrote: »
    Apologies if this is discussed earlier in thread, just watched and too many posts to read back through, but what do people think Clara was working out with all the post it notes at the very beginning? It was like she had had a brainstorming session, picked out things from her adventures and made some link to come to a major realisation about something (not just telling Danny she loved him surely).
    I believe it was more Clara processing her thoughts and steeling herself for telling Danny the truth about the various adventures with the Doctor she'd been keeping secret from him.
  • mediaratmediarat Posts: 358
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    To my mind, there's no reason to remember someone from a one-off meeting several months ago, where at the time she had no idea of its significance. I can't even remember the details of the person who served me at the petrol station this morning because it's just something I can't be bothered to remember. If I were to bump into them in the street in six months' time, I doubt I'd even remember seeing them before.

    sure, not in real life, but in TV worlds people tend to remember stuff like that where it's plot relevant. the women who gave the number was mentioned twice this series, implying some relevance, if it's not missy, then perhaps it was someone else?
  • CD93CD93 Posts: 13,939
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    Ah, The Master twirling with an umbrella. Who would have expected to see the day :D
  • Sufyaan_KaziSufyaan_Kazi Posts: 3,862
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    mediarat wrote: »
    sure, not in real life, but in TV worlds people tend to remember stuff like that where it's plot relevant. the women who gave the number was mentioned twice this series, implying some relevance, if it's not missy, then perhaps it was someone else?

    I think what slouchingthatch is saying is that it is an important point (and most likely is Missy) but we have one more episode. Last episode there was a lot going on in Claras' mind, shes' unlikely to have twigged or recognised Missy, (if it was her ..)
  • Jules_ThornleyJules_Thornley Posts: 2,997
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    elven62 wrote: »
    Apologies if this is discussed earlier in thread, just watched and too many posts to read back through, but what do people think Clara was working out with all the post it notes at the very beginning? It was like she had had a brainstorming session, picked out things from her adventures and made some link to come to a major realisation about something (not just telling Danny she loved him surely).

    Yeah I got this impression too. Also felt like there was more going on with Clara than we know as the series has moved along. Her character is so disjointed a lot of the time and something else but can't think of the right word...
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4
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    Best episode of the season for me. I have a few problems with Moffat now and again, but on occasions like this you could tell his mastery of the material after about five minutes.

    I watched it with my children, and we have recently had a road-related bereavement ourselves, so when the story unfolded I was extremely self-conscious and a bit concerned it was too much, but my boys were gripped and it was me that was put through the wringer emotionally!

    Thought the 3W revelation was very brave writing in terms of being so raw and dark.
  • johnnysaucepnjohnnysaucepn Posts: 6,775
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    I believe it was more Clara processing her thoughts and steeling herself for telling Danny the truth about the various adventures with the Doctor she'd been keeping secret from him.

    Seems like it's a bit of that, and a bit of why she has to keep doing that, and not staying with him.
    CLARA: OK, before all of that. Before all of the stuff that I did wrong... I love you.
    DANNY: I love you.
    CLARA: No, not like that. Not like it's automatic. Not like it's how you end the phone call, the sign off, the pat on the back.
    DANNY: Clara...
    CLARA: Danny, I'll never say those words again. Not to anybody else, ever. Those words, from me, are yours now.
    [...]
    CLARA: OK, Danny? Um, there's more but that's kind of the headline. OK, Danny, please speak to me, This is, this is killing me. Danny, I love you. And you are the last person who's ever going to hear me say that.

    Seems like she was getting prepared to dump him. Which goes to explain the guilt and desperation she was driven to.
  • AirboraeAirborae Posts: 2,644
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    CD93 wrote: »
    Ah, The Master twirling with an umbrella. Who would have expected to see the day :D

    John Simm might have had a good try... :)
  • CD93CD93 Posts: 13,939
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    Excellent
    I love that Moffat's literal mandate (DW: Extra) is to make children hide behind the sofa from Michelle Gomez.
  • Tom TitTom Tit Posts: 2,554
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    Adam_Byrne wrote: »
    Best episode of the season for me. I have a few problems with Moffat now and again, but on occasions like this you could tell his mastery of the material after about five minutes.

    I watched it with my children, and we have recently had a road-related bereavement ourselves, so when the story unfolded I was extremely self-conscious and a bit concerned it was too much, but my boys were gripped and it was me that was put through the wringer emotionally!

    Thought the 3W revelation was very brave writing in terms of being so raw and dark.

    The scene with Danny Pink and the boy he killed was the most shocking for me. I honestly think that's one of the 'darkest' scenes I've ever seen in Doctor Who. A soldier who is confronted by the civilian boy he killed in the 'afterlife'? That is seriously intense for an episode of Doctor Who. I was stunned when he actually appeared behind the door. I was expecting them to leave it at the implication.

    I have to applaud them for not toning down. I don't think anyone can complain that Doctor Who is not 'dark' enough after this episode. No doubt they will anyway if it is their agenda to do so :p From Danny Pink's death, to Clara's betrayal of the Doctor, to the skeletons in their tanks, to the three W's, to Danny Pink's ordeal they really didn't hold back.

    I have found all three of Moffat's episodes this season to be very bold and edgy. From the Doctor's actions in possibly 'killing' the sentient Droid in Deep Breath ("one of us is lying about our core programming") to the experimental 'Listen', to the unleavened horror of 'Dark Water' I think he's really taken it up a gear, trying to shock or stimulate the audience out of their comfort zone with the show. I don't agree with those that feel his episodes lost their way in seasons 6 and 7, but certainly I think they were relatively staid and less bold than his earlier ones or the recent ones.
  • jodojodo Posts: 279
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    There was so much I enjoyed in the episode although I feel there is more misdirection to be revealed.

    Little things that peppered the episode such as the post it notes at the start - one with Jenny on it which later made me second guess at Missy's 'you left me for dead comment' - as far as I know the Doctor believes Jenny to be dead - were a joy. I'm sure many who were sure Missy was a female Master had a moments doubt here. It threw me for one! As did the pretence of being an android.

    I thought the volcano scene wasn't real from the start but the exchange was well done and Capaldi's Doctor is more in control than he lets on. Again the portrayal of the Doctor's 'tunnel vision' focussing on the con and missing the visual clues for the cybermen with the door windows is a flaw we've seen before many times (not realising the statues should have two heads in Crash of the Byzantium for example).

    Danny's death at the start was certainly a shock - much as the character has underwhelmed me - as I thought he was possibly a sleeper agent for Missy. Chris Addison was engagingly slimy and was a snake oil salesman of the first degree.

    I have a preference for slow burner episodes where there is time to develop themes and characters and that engage the brain. I realise the subject matter - afterlife, dead feeling pain, don't cremate me has caused problems for some who have recently suffered loss or felt these themes were too adult.

    The pain of recent loss I can understand and respect but the theme of an afterlife 'the nethersphere' was clear from the first episode but certainly the degree of darkness not something that could be anticipated. Storytelling's aim is to create an emotional response and I applaud the bold choice of subject matter in this episode in this respect.

    I will say that I don't think the topic is too much for children for two reasons, one being that I think as a society we do not deal with death well as a subject matter - a personal opinion admittedly and I feel this episode will likely create much discussion and the other being that I'm fairly certain all the major soaps currently have a 'killer' in the cast (I'm not an Eastenders follower but haven't they had three or four murders in the last 12 to 18 months?) and they are broadcast much earlier in the evening - death is commonplace in mainstream entertainment. Also the one truly scary in Nu Who featuring Cybermen for me was the conversion process where they removed the brains at the end of season two. I'd say that was more worthy of criticism for its timeslot.

    Although Missy being the Master's latest incarnation was the simple solution part of me was hoping for a new villain however the performance of Michelle Gomez was very strong offering a delightful manic quality and mischievousness. I realise this move has upset many but if to be honest if you had a lifespan measured in centuries and could change your sex at least once during the millennia wouldn't you? Although many think this is a precursor to a future female Doctor I actually think the opposite and will be used to demonstrate that it would be a change too far. The change of sex did make me think of the exchange between 5 and 10 - 'has he [the Master] still got that ridiculous beard? No, well he has a wife!'

    The episode was wonderfully directed as well especially with the Cybermen reveals and the Missy introduction.

    Have we seen the real plan of the once Master now Mistress revealed? I doubt it - someone suggested s/he might be after snatching the Doctor's body with its new regeneration cycle - would fit the history of the Master. Is there more bait and switching up Moffatt's sleeve? Almost certainly. Will Danny be brought back to life? I hope not. Will these cybermen be properly threatening? It's overdue! If the finale builds on the solid groundwork of this episode it will be a stonker!
  • Crocodile TearsCrocodile Tears Posts: 245
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    Excellent
    Missy is cool
  • 446.09375446.09375 Posts: 961
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    If the Nethersphere is merely a 'Database' (for want of a better word) for dead minds/souls then how is is that we have seen Missy inside it as well as outside it?

    Very good point, surprised nobody has commented on that.
  • CorwinCorwin Posts: 16,588
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    jodo wrote: »
    There was so much I enjoyed in the episode although I feel there is more misdirection to be revealed.

    Little things that peppered the episode such as the post it notes at the start - one with Jenny on it which later made me second guess at Missy's 'you left me for dead comment' - as far as I know the Doctor believes Jenny to be dead - !

    More likely that referred to Jenny Flint not Jenny the Doctor's Clone.

    There were notes for Vastra and Strax as well I believe.
    446.09375 wrote: »
    Very good point, surprised nobody has commented on that.

    The Matrix (and the Nethersphere is a Slice of the Matrix) can be accessed by uploading your mind to it or actually entering it physically. The Master has even materialised his TARDIS inside it.
  • jodojodo Posts: 279
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    Corwin wrote: »
    More likely that referred to Jenny Flint not Jenny the Doctor's Clone.

    There were notes for Vastra and Strax as well I believe.

    Of course - same name but the wrong synapse kicked in in my head for some reason! :)

    That makes more sense! :)
  • TardisSteveTardisSteve Posts: 8,077
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    excellent, missy turning out oUt be the master was a surprise, at first i thought she may be the rani, liked the reference to the 2nd doctor serial "the invasion" , the cybermen walking down the stairs etc,

    noticed danny said clara's birthday was november 23rd (the day doctor who first aired in 1963)

    i like the fact that the master is now a woman, missy is a great villain and michelle gomez is a fab actress, also means there may be a woman doctor who one day (runs away before someone strikes him down for suggesting such a thing, lol)
  • Red-EyeRed-Eye Posts: 8,509
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    Excellent

    i like the fact that the master is now a woman, missy is a great villain and michelle gomez is a fab actress, also means there may be a woman doctor who one day (runs away before someone strikes him down for suggesting such a thing, lol)

    Relax Dude, despite the fact that I personally don't want a female Doctor at all, I for one will not strike you down over an opinion! Moi has more important things to worry about in life. :D

    Besides if they do decide to go down that route in future (hope not), stubborn folks such as myself would just have to learn to get used to it whether we like it or not. ;)
  • henry_hopehenry_hope Posts: 761
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    If there was a Hell on Earth this would be it, with Hell as a state of Mind.
    Its hell for the Doctor, for Clara and for Danny.
  • TalmaTalma Posts: 10,520
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    Red-Eye wrote: »
    Relax Dude, despite the fact that I personally don't want a female Doctor at all, I for one will not strike you down over an opinion! Moi has more important things to worry about in life. :D

    Besides if they do decide to go down that route in future (hope not), stubborn folks such as myself would just have to learn to get used to it whether we like it or not. ;)

    Or make the choice to watch it or not
  • rr22rr22 Posts: 7,618
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    Michelle Gomez has been saying in her interviews that what appears to be happening might not be quite all it seems so there must be a lot of twists and turns in the story before we get the truth of the Nethersphere. I am hoping that the conclusion is not as rubbish as "The Wedding Of River Song" though.

    "Nothing that you think is happening is happening"

    I dunno what to read into that.
  • johnnysaucepnjohnnysaucepn Posts: 6,775
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    446.09375 wrote: »
    Very good point, surprised nobody has commented on that.

    Yeah, I did consider that, in the context of whether there's different versions of Missy in each place, but then remembered that the classic series showed that one aspect of the Matrix is that you can travel in and out of it, it's not just an archive for data.
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