The difference in budgeted vs. actual expenses was because the intention was to travel on the day, but as the client wanted the presentation first thing, my manager wanted to stay over the night before.
Again, these decisions were taken out of my hands, I don't agree with the way my manager handled the situation, but I couldn't really do much about it...
Your manager should approve your expenses then. A finance person should not be able to over rule that, as long as it is within his signing authority.
Wow - no small amount of money (not that it really makes a difference, I guess).
Was the cost known before you 'paid out' ?
Like I said before, I am no legal beagle, but I am just trying to think how this would work out pursuant to a legal claim.
I am wondering (before someone jumps on me and says don't give advice if you don't 'know'), if it could get 'messy' for want of a better phrase, if it could be interpreted that you were not authorised to spend that much company money.
For example - a few years ago, working for a different company than I do now, I was asked to work abroad for a few days. When it came to settling the hotel bill it became apparent that the company credit card has not been approved by the hotel and that they understood that I would be paying.
I made sure, before paying the bill, that the company (my employer) were conversant with the full cost and had a fixed date of when they would reimburse me (ie, not the normal 'get it as expense in your next pay packet' deal). This happened on two trips abroad, and it was as well I was able to 'bail them out' as I wouldn't have been able to leave had I not paid up.
What I am getting at, in a round about way, is do you have evidence that you were authorised to spend that much company money (irrespective of budgets) before you elected to pay it out.
I am certain that more legally minded people than me will join this thread before long, and I emphasise again, this is just layman's thoughts, not 'advice'.
I really do hope that you do not end up out of pocket, when you were trying to do the right thing for the business.
The difference in budgeted vs. actual expenses was because the intention was to travel on the day, but as the client wanted the presentation first thing, my manager wanted to stay over the night before.
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You exceeded the budget by £450 according to post#3 and stayed in a Premier Inn. 2 single rooms in a Premier Inn and presumably something to eat was £450? Blimey O'Reilly must have been some Premier Inn. Did Lenny Henry tuck you in personally?.
If you went with your line manager, and it was their decision to go up the day before and stay the night, why did they not cover the expenses?
Also, as this was a presentation for a client, somehow the expenses could be recouped from them. Unless we're talking unpaid pitch work in which case the fees could only be recouped if the job is won.
So, your accounts bod should know this and factor it in, surely.
Mind you, it still does seem a heck of a lot of money for an overnight trip to Manc...
ETA: However, if you drove and claimed back business mileage at 49p a mile that would be around £200 for starters... But then 450 for two rooms and food still seems a wee bit steep
Anyway, I went with my line manager and she paid for the majority of the expenses. £650 for a trip like this is quite normal I think. 2 single rooms at a premier inn, travel from London to Manchester peak hours, which isn't cheap either. Yes, this hadn't been budgeted correctly on cost forms, but that's no fault of my own, I didn't complete the cost forms... Both of us provided all evidence of receipts.
I'm not talking at all about suing, I don't want to do anything like that, just want to reiterate to them that legally they'd have to pay - I just hope that's the case...! Also, I don't want to be £200 out of pocket!
I would disagree - just looking at the National Rail website, to travel anytime today and returning the following day (so no discounts for booking days/weeks in advance) you can get a return from London to Manchester for less than £100. Then looking at the Premier Inn website, 2 single rooms for tonight comes in at about £150 (so again no discounts for booking early/booking through a travel site with promotions etc). Even accounting for slightly higher prices than the ones from my quick Google and not counting meals, there's still a huge discrepancy between the £650 quoted in the OP and the cost I've managed to calculate. No wonder you manager isn't willing to pay the £450 in expenses that goes above and beyond the £200 budget!
Alleged cost of the trip = £650
Two return train tickets = ~ £200
2 single rooms at a Premier Inn for 1 night = ~ £150
Total cost = ~ £350 before meals
Where on earth did you eat that cost £300 for food for 2 people?
The key point in all of this, is that the OP, or anyone else, when looking to claim back expenditure for corporate purposes, must be sure before they spend as much as one penny, what they can claim.
The rules in my 'old place' (doesn't really apply now for me), were that you could travel by the cheapest means, subsistence was at a fixed maximum total, entertaining (pre approved) was also at a fixed maximum.
Taxis (for early morning UK flights for example) were acceptable, as were taxis for business travel abroad.Food etc was very specifically detailed in terms of what you were entitled to claim according to when you were 'on company business', and again within specific limits.
All of this was made very clear before you (as an employee) spent any money. If you wanted to travel first class, for example, you were welcome to, but you would only be reimbursed for the cheapest travel option.
There were, rightly or wrongly, different limits according to what your job was.
It is not clear (to me) if this was all made clear to the OP, and I don't know (nor need to) how important the client was, so cannot judge if the OP just 'went mad on the expense account'.
Any company will want to know exactly what they are spending and why, and will want to be assured it was justified.
Your manager should approve your expenses then. A finance person should not be able to over rule that, as long as it is within his signing authority.
The finance person is the MD's wife, she runs the rule over things like this (and gets aggressive over it...).
Yes, the expenses are a lot - as I say this was taken out of my hands. We travelled after 3pm and before 6pm, the most expensive time to travel. I'm pretty sure total train costs came to something like £350-£400. The presentation wasn't in Manchester, there were more trains to catch that added to expenses further. My manager booked hotels, so I'm not sure how much that came to.
Lol, I feel like I'm having to justify the expenses to some of you here! This was my manager's decision, I covered some of the train tickets and she instructed me on what tickets to get. I didn't want to travel up the day before tbh, but she wouldn't have been happy if I had refused...
Regarding the client, it wasn't for a pitch, but the costs certainly couldn't have been passed back to them after they'd commissioned the job. That wouldn't have gone down well at all...
Regarding train costs, an open return after 15.20 is £308 per person. We didn't pay that much as we split it to 2 singles each way and travelled back at offpeak hours when coming back. Yes, it's a lot of money though and the bulk of the expenses...
I would disagree - just looking at the National Rail website, to travel anytime today and returning the following day (so no discounts for booking days/weeks in advance) you can get a return from London to Manchester for less than £100. Then looking at the Premier Inn website, 2 single rooms for tonight comes in at about £150 (so again no discounts for booking early/booking through a travel site with promotions etc). Even accounting for slightly higher prices than the ones from my quick Google and not counting meals, there's still a huge discrepancy between the £650 quoted in the OP and the cost I've managed to calculate. No wonder you manager isn't willing to pay the £450 in expenses that goes above and beyond the £200 budget!
Alleged cost of the trip = £650
Two return train tickets = ~ £200
2 single rooms at a Premier Inn for 1 night = ~ £150
Total cost = ~ £350 before meals
Where on earth did you eat that cost £300 for food for 2 people?
I'm not sure where you found an anytime return for £100, it's around £310 (I'm currently sat on a peak Virgin train to London from Stockport with that ticket due to a last minute meeting).
However, this is irrelevant. If the OP is within the company expenses policy and their manager is responsible for authorising their expenses, they should be being paid. The manager was with him so by definition knew about them and authorised them and poor budget control should be taken up between the manager and HIS manager.
To be honest OP, expenses are the one thing that I don't let lie with my company, especially as mine often approach my salary in a given month. I'd write to finance asking for formal confirmation that they're rejecting your claim, making clear that you're going to raise a grievance if they are. I'd also highlight the breakdown in trust that the rejection would cause and highlight the impact it will have on your willingness to incur expenses on behalf of the company in future.
Keep it calm, professional, to the point and polite of course. Copy in your line manager and request a response within a reasonable set time frame.
I'm not sure where you found an anytime return for £100, it's around £310 (I'm currently sat on a peak Virgin train to London from Stockport with that ticket due to a last minute meeting).
However, this is irrelevant. If the OP is within the company expenses policy and their manager is responsible for authorising their expenses, they should be being paid. The manager was with him so by definition knew about them and authorised them and poor budget control should be taken up between the manager and HIS manager.
To be honest OP, expenses are the one thing that I don't let lie with my company, especially as mine often approach my salary in a given month. I'd write to finance asking for formal confirmation that they're rejecting your claim, making clear that you're going to raise a grievance if they are. I'd also highlight the breakdown in trust that the rejection would cause and highlight the impact it will have on your willingness to incur expenses on behalf of the company in future.
Keep it calm, professional, to the point and polite of course. Copy in your line manager and request a response within a reasonable set time frame.
Thanks very much, that's all very sensible.
The issue is working for a small company, this woman basically is the finance department. My line manager has said she's made issues of expenses before and there have been occasions when she hasn't paid expenses and not notified staff...
I've never worked for a company like this tbh! Hopefully it'll all be resolved, but I'll post to let you all know...
The issue is working for a small company, this woman basically is the finance department. My line manager has said she's made issues of expenses before and there have been occasions when she hasn't paid expenses and not notified staff...
I've never worked for a company like this tbh! Hopefully it'll all be resolved, but I'll post to let you all know...
ask for a copy of the expenses policy and if they don't have one, suggest they get one!
size is no excuse whatsoever. I've only ever worked for charities and our finance "depts" were always just one person. That's why we had policies so everyone knew where they stood
So your manager paid the train fares and the hotel? So what are you claiming £200 for? Just curious!
It's a bit confusing but the OP says, in post #36, that they had to cover some of the train fees...
I've now no idea how much of the £650 is the OPs money but, surely, the OP should have put in a separate expenses claim for only their own expenditure using the same job ref number so that both his and his manager's expenses are logged on the same project...
Unfortunately, adopting such a bolshy attitude could result in a visit to the local Jobcentre in the near future (as will calling the MD's wife a "crazy bitch" if he happens to learn of this thread).
Yes, simply tell them. I don't see what's 'bolshy' about that?
That's what we used to do when our expenses were dicked about with. We used to do global business travel, using company American Express cards, in our names. They need to be paid off in full each month, otherwise they are stopped.
It's not much fun having to pay staff hotel and flights, totalling around £5000 on your personal Barclaycard, simply because your expenses haven't been paid, so you cannot pay off your company AMEX, so it's been stopped and refused at the hotel or travel agent.
Why would flagging up a poor expenses procedure result in 'a visit to the local Jobcentre in the near future'?
Just because one substantially larger than expected claim hasn't yet been paid doesn't make it a poor procedure. A budget was set, it was blown away, the expenses were probably rightly queried and the OP has hardly explained the situation very coherently here, details have been dragged out and even then its not that clear what exactly he's claiming for!
If you stay over the night before a meeting / conference etc, it should be possible to travel both legs of the journey off-peak, eg wait till 1800 (or whatever time it starts). This can save a lot of money on the train tickets.
I have to say I wouldn't dream of claiming so much for a one-night stay and certainly would be checking with my boss before arranging travel and accommodation!
On my recent business overnight trip - I only claimed £6.70 - and that was just for evening meal and breakfast.
Our company procedure calls for all accomodation to be booked in advance, by the company, as is any travel. (even that was just £29 - one day notice)
We also ask for float too, every couple of months. I don't go anywhere without having money up front from the company - that way I'm never actually owed anything.
If you stay over the night before a meeting / conference etc, it should be possible to travel both legs of the journey off-peak, eg wait till 1800 (or whatever time it starts). This can save a lot of money on the train tickets.
I have to say I wouldn't dream of claiming so much for a one-night stay and certainly would be checking with my boss before arranging travel and accommodation!
I agree with all this, but I don't know how many times I have said now that the decision to stay in hotels, to travel at peak times was dictated by my manager! I had no say in this. We do not have access to company cash or credit cards.
My expenses totalled £190: £150 on the return train journey for both me and my manager, £20 on meals and £20 is actually from another job. I've not been paid any of these expenses. All the payments and expenses claimed were made with the manager's approval.
Sorry, I'm not having a go at you ih8mondays, it's just that I was seeking some advice on what I can do in this situation and this has turned into an inquest lol! I fully understand that people want more background to the expenses incurred, but I just feel that I am being penalised for a business trip I knew never really had to become as expensive as it did. But that, as far as I'm concerned, is the fault of my manager... I am an honest person and wouldn't try to fleece the company with unnecessary expenses.
I think seeking the expenses regulations is the next step, but my fear is with the accounts woman. If I raise anything about it, without my manager dealing with her directly, I suspect she will scream, shout, swear at and humiliate me in front of everyone! She's made people cry before...
Apologies if I've not been entirely clear over everything here, but my intention was not to disclose as much detail, but find out whether people had been in a similar situation and what they had done about it...
Comments
Your manager should approve your expenses then. A finance person should not be able to over rule that, as long as it is within his signing authority.
You should have sought Permission to go over so best forget it :cool:
Did you read any of the thread?
BIB, I love this!
Also, as this was a presentation for a client, somehow the expenses could be recouped from them. Unless we're talking unpaid pitch work in which case the fees could only be recouped if the job is won.
So, your accounts bod should know this and factor it in, surely.
Mind you, it still does seem a heck of a lot of money for an overnight trip to Manc...
ETA: However, if you drove and claimed back business mileage at 49p a mile that would be around £200 for starters... But then 450 for two rooms and food still seems a wee bit steep
I would disagree - just looking at the National Rail website, to travel anytime today and returning the following day (so no discounts for booking days/weeks in advance) you can get a return from London to Manchester for less than £100. Then looking at the Premier Inn website, 2 single rooms for tonight comes in at about £150 (so again no discounts for booking early/booking through a travel site with promotions etc). Even accounting for slightly higher prices than the ones from my quick Google and not counting meals, there's still a huge discrepancy between the £650 quoted in the OP and the cost I've managed to calculate. No wonder you manager isn't willing to pay the £450 in expenses that goes above and beyond the £200 budget!
Alleged cost of the trip = £650
Two return train tickets = ~ £200
2 single rooms at a Premier Inn for 1 night = ~ £150
Total cost = ~ £350 before meals
Where on earth did you eat that cost £300 for food for 2 people?
The rules in my 'old place' (doesn't really apply now for me), were that you could travel by the cheapest means, subsistence was at a fixed maximum total, entertaining (pre approved) was also at a fixed maximum.
Taxis (for early morning UK flights for example) were acceptable, as were taxis for business travel abroad.Food etc was very specifically detailed in terms of what you were entitled to claim according to when you were 'on company business', and again within specific limits.
All of this was made very clear before you (as an employee) spent any money. If you wanted to travel first class, for example, you were welcome to, but you would only be reimbursed for the cheapest travel option.
There were, rightly or wrongly, different limits according to what your job was.
It is not clear (to me) if this was all made clear to the OP, and I don't know (nor need to) how important the client was, so cannot judge if the OP just 'went mad on the expense account'.
Any company will want to know exactly what they are spending and why, and will want to be assured it was justified.
The finance person is the MD's wife, she runs the rule over things like this (and gets aggressive over it...).
Yes, the expenses are a lot - as I say this was taken out of my hands. We travelled after 3pm and before 6pm, the most expensive time to travel. I'm pretty sure total train costs came to something like £350-£400. The presentation wasn't in Manchester, there were more trains to catch that added to expenses further. My manager booked hotels, so I'm not sure how much that came to.
Lol, I feel like I'm having to justify the expenses to some of you here! This was my manager's decision, I covered some of the train tickets and she instructed me on what tickets to get. I didn't want to travel up the day before tbh, but she wouldn't have been happy if I had refused...
However, this is irrelevant. If the OP is within the company expenses policy and their manager is responsible for authorising their expenses, they should be being paid. The manager was with him so by definition knew about them and authorised them and poor budget control should be taken up between the manager and HIS manager.
To be honest OP, expenses are the one thing that I don't let lie with my company, especially as mine often approach my salary in a given month. I'd write to finance asking for formal confirmation that they're rejecting your claim, making clear that you're going to raise a grievance if they are. I'd also highlight the breakdown in trust that the rejection would cause and highlight the impact it will have on your willingness to incur expenses on behalf of the company in future.
Keep it calm, professional, to the point and polite of course. Copy in your line manager and request a response within a reasonable set time frame.
Thanks very much, that's all very sensible.
The issue is working for a small company, this woman basically is the finance department. My line manager has said she's made issues of expenses before and there have been occasions when she hasn't paid expenses and not notified staff...
I've never worked for a company like this tbh! Hopefully it'll all be resolved, but I'll post to let you all know...
...and that might be why your line manager got you to cover the expenses!
Nothing to do with it being a small company, everything to do with how the finances/expenses are handled by that company.
I've only ever dealt with expenses when I worked for small companies (biggest was 13 staff) and never had any problems.
ask for a copy of the expenses policy and if they don't have one, suggest they get one!
size is no excuse whatsoever. I've only ever worked for charities and our finance "depts" were always just one person. That's why we had policies so everyone knew where they stood
It's a bit confusing but the OP says, in post #36, that they had to cover some of the train fees...
I've now no idea how much of the £650 is the OPs money but, surely, the OP should have put in a separate expenses claim for only their own expenditure using the same job ref number so that both his and his manager's expenses are logged on the same project...
Yes, simply tell them. I don't see what's 'bolshy' about that?
That's what we used to do when our expenses were dicked about with. We used to do global business travel, using company American Express cards, in our names. They need to be paid off in full each month, otherwise they are stopped.
It's not much fun having to pay staff hotel and flights, totalling around £5000 on your personal Barclaycard, simply because your expenses haven't been paid, so you cannot pay off your company AMEX, so it's been stopped and refused at the hotel or travel agent.
Why would flagging up a poor expenses procedure result in 'a visit to the local Jobcentre in the near future'?
I have to say I wouldn't dream of claiming so much for a one-night stay and certainly would be checking with my boss before arranging travel and accommodation!
On my recent business overnight trip - I only claimed £6.70 - and that was just for evening meal and breakfast.
Our company procedure calls for all accomodation to be booked in advance, by the company, as is any travel. (even that was just £29 - one day notice)
We also ask for float too, every couple of months. I don't go anywhere without having money up front from the company - that way I'm never actually owed anything.
I agree with all this, but I don't know how many times I have said now that the decision to stay in hotels, to travel at peak times was dictated by my manager! I had no say in this. We do not have access to company cash or credit cards.
My expenses totalled £190: £150 on the return train journey for both me and my manager, £20 on meals and £20 is actually from another job. I've not been paid any of these expenses. All the payments and expenses claimed were made with the manager's approval.
Sorry, I'm not having a go at you ih8mondays, it's just that I was seeking some advice on what I can do in this situation and this has turned into an inquest lol! I fully understand that people want more background to the expenses incurred, but I just feel that I am being penalised for a business trip I knew never really had to become as expensive as it did. But that, as far as I'm concerned, is the fault of my manager... I am an honest person and wouldn't try to fleece the company with unnecessary expenses.
I think seeking the expenses regulations is the next step, but my fear is with the accounts woman. If I raise anything about it, without my manager dealing with her directly, I suspect she will scream, shout, swear at and humiliate me in front of everyone! She's made people cry before...
Apologies if I've not been entirely clear over everything here, but my intention was not to disclose as much detail, but find out whether people had been in a similar situation and what they had done about it...
Yes budget was exceeded before company told. :cool: