Why do you think it's important for people to make fun and mock believers just because they have belief in a religion?
While I actually think a lot of these thread make the mockers look like ignorant fools, every bit as unthinking and abusive as they accuse believers of being, I would actually argue in favour of their right to mock. Just as everyone else has the right to pull them up when they get too full of themselves.
Religious institutions have a proven record of abuse when placed above criticism. The mockery is just words - The right to express them is important.
While I actually think a lot of these thread make the mockers look like ignorant fools, every bit as unthinking and abusive as they accuse believers of being, I would actually argue in favour of their right to mock. Just as everyone else has the right to pull them up when they get too full of themselves.
Religious institutions have a proven record of abuse when placed above criticism. The mockery is just words - The right to express them is important.
I'm not sure about that. A lot of damage can be done by someone who thought they were just dishing out words! And I'm talking about something a lot more than the "dish it but can't take it" scenario.
I'm not sure about that. A lot of damage can be done by someone who thought they were just dishing out words! And I'm talking about something a lot more than the "dish it but can't take it" scenario.
I take your point however a lot more damage can be done when any ideology places itself above and beyond criticism. I'm no more a fan of these threads than you are however forcefully silencing criticism (as religions have been known to do) never works as intended and always does more harm than good.
You are assuming I guess those of us who believe this have no horror or pain in our lives, I lost all my babies one after another still births and one lived for a few hours. Horrible things happen my Faith now helps me deal with it, prior to finding my Faith I was struggling to make any sense of life but now I can deal with the pain.
So for me I think God helps us get through the horrors, he doesn't cause them or control them just helps us cope.
With absolute respect for your to deal with your grief in whatever way you choose, i really don't understand this at all.
If i was a believer and terrible things happened to me, then surely it must mean it is God's will that these things happened.
Its much better to not believe in God, because if he does exist he is a ****.
I don't like these kind of threads either but if you want freedom they are part of the deal.
Yes of course freedom of expression and speech covers threads like this. I have no qualm with that. I used the same freedom to post what I posted.
What doesn't make any sense is this idea that freedom of speech somehow doesn't cover the freedom to practise a religion. If freedom of speech really is freedom of speech then it covers that too. No? It's like there's only "one" type of freedom. Well, in my book that's not freedom at all. That's just as constrained a construct as religion is for some. If freedom is only for those who are against organised religion then how is that freedom exactly? It's just another doctrine, or edict or opinion shaped in a different way.
This simple recognition seems beyond the capabilities of those who think what I said was wrong (I don't include you in that Richard just to make that clear).
What you meant to say was that religion's crusade against freedom continues.
All over the world.
I said what I said and I stand by it. I will always stand by it. Can you not see that freedom of speech includes the freedom to practise one's religion? If that doesn't get included then it's not freedom to all.
The freedom to criticise those who practise religion is no different to the freedom to practise one's religion. Not in terms of the impact but in terms of the freedom one has to do it. There's no "whatabouts" or "yeahbuts" in it.
Don't have sex before marriage
Only eat at certain times of the year & starve yourself during other times
No gambling
No same sex relations
No blood transfusions
No celebrating birthdays
No having friends if they are not of the same religion
No consideration for the use of contraception
No eating certain types of meat
the abuse of circumcision
Yes I can see that religion is full of that thing called Freedom.
So who determines what freedom of expression/speech constitutes? Who is to say freedom to practise one's faith isn't a valid form of freedom? Do you wish to deny the freedom to practise religion? If so, how do you justify that when compared to the freedom of speech/expression?
To be fair, a number of British Muslims who are starting to doubt the existence of God / Allah often dare not tell their devout family, for fear of being thrown out of the house or worse. It was the same situation for doubting-Christians for centuries. One guy from a British-African community dare not tell the rest of his community about his atheism.
It works both ways.
Yes you're right. This is what I think is being missed out a bit. That freedom covers more than just one's own viewpoint. The rush to state such a thing omits the fact that others are able (or should be able) to use that freedom in their own way. I am guilty of that myself so I'm no better than anyone else in that aspect.
Yes, the idea that apostasy is a crime (let alone one punishable by death in some religions) is clearly not compatible with concepts of freedom. So it's not a clear and straightforward path to resolve who can say what (or do what) and who can't.
You are assuming I guess those of us who believe this have no horror or pain in our lives, I lost all my babies one after another still births and one lived for a few hours. Horrible things happen my Faith now helps me deal with it, prior to finding my Faith I was struggling to make any sense of life but now I can deal with the pain.
So for me I think God helps us get through the horrors, he doesn't cause them or control them just helps us cope.
Very sad to read this mollie. I think this for me goes beyond anything external. It goes beyond petty arguments about the right to believe or not. It's how you deal with this in your own way. And that you are still alive, and facing this and getting the support from your friends and family (I hope) and that your faith has had a part in you being able to deal with it (where it may not for someone else) is what you and you alone needed to help get through this.
I don't think any words of mine to you can really account for what you have gone through. All I can say is I hope you find peace and happiness and your hopes realised, through whatever means and beliefs and activities work for you.
You are assuming I guess those of us who believe this have no horror or pain in our lives, I lost all my babies one after another still births and one lived for a few hours. Horrible things happen my Faith now helps me deal with it, prior to finding my Faith I was struggling to make any sense of life but now I can deal with the pain.
So for me I think God helps us get through the horrors, he doesn't cause them or control them just helps us cope.
Some of the religious love telling you how wonderful their religion is but when you start questioning them regarding some of their beliefs they can get quite offended.
Almost like you have no right to question.
Surely we have a right to question and not just follow blindly.
With absolute respect for your to deal with your grief in whatever way you choose, i really don't understand this at all.
If i was a believer and terrible things happened to me, then surely it must mean it is God's will that these things happened.
Its much better to not believe in God, because if he does exist he is a ****.
No I don't see it as God's will, I really think horrible things sometimes just happen or in the case of murder etc are done by man. God is there to help us pick up the pieces in our lives and accept the souls of the departed into his care.
Very sad to read this mollie. I think this for me goes beyond anything external. It goes beyond petty arguments about the right to believe or not. It's how you deal with this in your own way. And that you are still alive, and facing this and getting the support from your friends and family (I hope) and that your faith has had a part in you being able to deal with it (where it may not for someone else) is what you and you alone needed to help get through this.
I don't think any words of mine to you can really account for what you have gone through. All I can say is I hope you find peace and happiness and your hopes realised, through whatever means and beliefs and activities work for you.
Thank you, I can say I have in many ways been lucky even though I have seen great (for us) tragedy. Married to a wonderful man and have managed to stay together through it all, it breaks many couples when things like this happen but we are still very much together. I have parented 3 children who while not mine have given me a chance to use the love I had in a constructive way. Now have my Niece's daughter to care for since she died recently so starting again at 52 to be a parent to a 5 year old. I have had more than my fair share of luck and children to love. So even while I mourn my losses I know I will look back and be able to say I had a good life when the time comes.
I said what I said and I stand by it. I will always stand by it. Can you not see that freedom of speech includes the freedom to practise one's religion? If that doesn't get included then it's not freedom to all.
The freedom to criticise those who practise religion is no different to the freedom to practise one's religion. Not in terms of the impact but in terms of the freedom one has to do it. There's no "whatabouts" or "yeahbuts" in it.
Of course - but if the religious authorities had their way there would be no freedom at all.
It is only because of the rise of science and secularism that the shackles have been loosened from Christianity (just look at the scandal of the thousands of repulsive peodo priests).
As for your religion, any words about 'tolerance' and 'freedom' are hilarious in the way that many Islamic countries are run.
Some would like this country run like that and Sharia bloody law as well.
Of course - but if the religious authorities had their way there would be no freedom at all.
It is only because of the rise of science and secularism that the shackles have been loosened from Christianity (just look at the scandal of the thousands of repulsive peodo priests).
As for your religion, any words about 'tolerance' and 'freedom' are hilarious in the way that many Islamic countries are run.
Some would like this country run like that and Sharia bloody law as well.
No thanks, this is the 21st century not the 7th.
I believe in god but I do not follow the teachings of the Catholic Church. I believe in gay marriage and equality for everyone but I am not a devout follower nor am I a fundamentalist. I don't go to church either. I resent being lumped in as a zealot as I am nothing of the sort. Aethists need to dustinguish between religious organisations and individuals imo. I respect people's rights not to believe but they have no right to disregard or mock my beliefs.
I believe in god but I do not follow the teachings of the Catholic Church. I believe in gay marriage and equality for everyone but I am not a devout follower nor am I a fundamentalist. I don't go to church either. I resent being lumped in as a zealot as I am nothing of the sort. Aethists need to dustinguish between religious organisations and individuals imo. I respect people's rights not to believe but they have no right to disregard or mock my beliefs.
I never accused people like you of being a zealot Sorcha.
You believe in a God but you do not expect others to.
Comments
Quote's messed up.
How do you explain the fact that many of the world's top scientists - including astro-physicists - are religious people?
It's a pretty safe bet when the seeds are of this quality.
You said this:
Why do you think it's important for people to make fun and mock believers just because they have belief in a religion?
While I actually think a lot of these thread make the mockers look like ignorant fools, every bit as unthinking and abusive as they accuse believers of being, I would actually argue in favour of their right to mock. Just as everyone else has the right to pull them up when they get too full of themselves.
Religious institutions have a proven record of abuse when placed above criticism. The mockery is just words - The right to express them is important.
I'm not sure about that. A lot of damage can be done by someone who thought they were just dishing out words! And I'm talking about something a lot more than the "dish it but can't take it" scenario.
I take your point however a lot more damage can be done when any ideology places itself above and beyond criticism. I'm no more a fan of these threads than you are however forcefully silencing criticism (as religions have been known to do) never works as intended and always does more harm than good.
With absolute respect for your to deal with your grief in whatever way you choose, i really don't understand this at all.
If i was a believer and terrible things happened to me, then surely it must mean it is God's will that these things happened.
Its much better to not believe in God, because if he does exist he is a ****.
I didn't say it was. I said it's important for people to have the freedom to do so if they want. Don't you think freedom of speech is important?
Yes of course freedom of expression and speech covers threads like this. I have no qualm with that. I used the same freedom to post what I posted.
What doesn't make any sense is this idea that freedom of speech somehow doesn't cover the freedom to practise a religion. If freedom of speech really is freedom of speech then it covers that too. No? It's like there's only "one" type of freedom. Well, in my book that's not freedom at all. That's just as constrained a construct as religion is for some. If freedom is only for those who are against organised religion then how is that freedom exactly? It's just another doctrine, or edict or opinion shaped in a different way.
This simple recognition seems beyond the capabilities of those who think what I said was wrong (I don't include you in that Richard just to make that clear).
I said what I said and I stand by it. I will always stand by it. Can you not see that freedom of speech includes the freedom to practise one's religion? If that doesn't get included then it's not freedom to all.
The freedom to criticise those who practise religion is no different to the freedom to practise one's religion. Not in terms of the impact but in terms of the freedom one has to do it. There's no "whatabouts" or "yeahbuts" in it.
Nobody's perfect.
So who determines what freedom of expression/speech constitutes? Who is to say freedom to practise one's faith isn't a valid form of freedom? Do you wish to deny the freedom to practise religion? If so, how do you justify that when compared to the freedom of speech/expression?
Yes it is, that's true. I can't justify denying that freedom given I consider the freedom to practise one's religion to be a valid thing.
Yes you're right. This is what I think is being missed out a bit. That freedom covers more than just one's own viewpoint. The rush to state such a thing omits the fact that others are able (or should be able) to use that freedom in their own way. I am guilty of that myself so I'm no better than anyone else in that aspect.
Yes, the idea that apostasy is a crime (let alone one punishable by death in some religions) is clearly not compatible with concepts of freedom. So it's not a clear and straightforward path to resolve who can say what (or do what) and who can't.
Definitely, I agree.
Very sad to read this mollie. I think this for me goes beyond anything external. It goes beyond petty arguments about the right to believe or not. It's how you deal with this in your own way. And that you are still alive, and facing this and getting the support from your friends and family (I hope) and that your faith has had a part in you being able to deal with it (where it may not for someone else) is what you and you alone needed to help get through this.
I don't think any words of mine to you can really account for what you have gone through. All I can say is I hope you find peace and happiness and your hopes realised, through whatever means and beliefs and activities work for you.
You don't understand it because you don't comprehend God.
Most of the time, neither do I
I dont know if mock is the correct word here.
Personally i prefer the word question.
Some of the religious love telling you how wonderful their religion is but when you start questioning them regarding some of their beliefs they can get quite offended.
Almost like you have no right to question.
Surely we have a right to question and not just follow blindly.
No I don't see it as God's will, I really think horrible things sometimes just happen or in the case of murder etc are done by man. God is there to help us pick up the pieces in our lives and accept the souls of the departed into his care.
Thank you, I can say I have in many ways been lucky even though I have seen great (for us) tragedy. Married to a wonderful man and have managed to stay together through it all, it breaks many couples when things like this happen but we are still very much together. I have parented 3 children who while not mine have given me a chance to use the love I had in a constructive way. Now have my Niece's daughter to care for since she died recently so starting again at 52 to be a parent to a 5 year old. I have had more than my fair share of luck and children to love. So even while I mourn my losses I know I will look back and be able to say I had a good life when the time comes.
Of course - but if the religious authorities had their way there would be no freedom at all.
It is only because of the rise of science and secularism that the shackles have been loosened from Christianity (just look at the scandal of the thousands of repulsive peodo priests).
As for your religion, any words about 'tolerance' and 'freedom' are hilarious in the way that many Islamic countries are run.
Some would like this country run like that and Sharia bloody law as well.
No thanks, this is the 21st century not the 7th.
I believe in god but I do not follow the teachings of the Catholic Church. I believe in gay marriage and equality for everyone but I am not a devout follower nor am I a fundamentalist. I don't go to church either. I resent being lumped in as a zealot as I am nothing of the sort. Aethists need to dustinguish between religious organisations and individuals imo. I respect people's rights not to believe but they have no right to disregard or mock my beliefs.
I never accused people like you of being a zealot Sorcha.
You believe in a God but you do not expect others to.
That is it in a nutshell keyser.
And that is the fundamental difference between you and a zealot. :kitty: