No worries. I have to say I'm relieved we've finally got that point sorted.
I believe that goodness comes from God.
I also take note of Jesus' words, especially:
And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone..." Mk 10. 17-18
I'm sorry, have you been waiting for my reply?
It's interesting that you don't seem to want an explanation from non believers, though.
Well, as a "non believer" I'm quite happy to just accept that things happen without feeling the need to attribute them to some higher power. That's why I have absolutely no issue with saying that I don't know why bad or good things happen.
I don't know why some people die in a plane crash while others, sitting in the same part of the plane, walk away from the crash without a scratch. I can't understand why any god would "do good" by picking which ones should survive.
I don't know why, if any god has the capacity to do good, they'd need to be asked in the form of a prayer. Is the suggestion that if a god isn't asked, that good deed won't happen anyway? Can he, she or it not be trusted to do the right thing without sending the equivalent of a begging letter?
I don't know why praying to one particular god is said to work when people have, and still do, pray to a variety of gods, and all religions have, and still do, claim that their god can answer those prayers. Some of them must be wrong ... unless there's a committee of specific gods, in which case all religions are wrong!
I don't know why people claim that if something can't be explained using the knowledge of the day, it has to be "supernatural" and therefore attributable to a particular deity. I don't know, but it strikes me as the easy option for those unwilling to say "I don't know". Why is it different in principle to claim that a god must have "cured" someone because at this time we don't have a clear scientific understanding; than to have claimed that thunder must have been the work of Thor ... or Tāwhaki ... or Set ... or Whaitiri ... or any of a dozen others because at the time the science of thunder and lightning wasn't understood?
So, I can see things from the "non believer's" point of view, so I was intrigued to know if those who follow any given religion believe that their god is fully or partly responsible for good and/or bad things, especially as there have been so many gods ... all with the power to "do things".
I don't know why some people die in a plane crash while others, sitting in the same part of the plane, walk away from the crash without a scratch.
No, 'we' probably do not but good crash investigators would by examingin the way the plane crashed, where the people were sitting, the ways the people moved during the crash.
Prayer has no use. All these "oh pray for this disaster that's affected this country" It does nothing. it gives them no assistance at all. To say it does help them is an outrageous lie.
All religions are basically cults whether you claim them to not be or otherwise. They all started the same way control. Which is how modern day cults operate.
Nethwen, how do you know those are words jeebers spoke? If you say because the bible says so, that's incorrect. the bible is full of inaccuracies. Man wrote it, there the law of Chinese Whispers comes into play.
What if the leg was chewed off by a bear? What if the person was a conservationist, doing wonderful work in the woods, and along comes a bear and chews their leg off. Why don't prayers ever work for missing limbs?
What if the leg was chewed off by a bear? What if the person was a conservationist, doing wonderful work in the woods, and along comes a bear and chews their leg off. Why don't prayers ever work for missing limbs?
Obviously anyone who doesn't believe in God isn't going to believe in the power of prayer.
But for the sake of this argument lets all just assume for a minute that God does exist. So given that God does exist does it make sense for people to believe in the power of prayer, in the sense of asking God to do something like heal the sick? I still don't see that it does.
Suppose there's a seriously ill child in hospital and the local church all pray to God to ask Him to make the child better. What difference would this make?
God is all knowing so He would already be aware of the child's condition.
He is all powerful so is able to make the child better.
He loves and cares for us all so presumably would make the child better if He could.
So what difference would praying make? Is God really that callous and arrogant that He would only be willing to bother to heal the child if lots of people got on their knees and begged him really hard to help? Surely He'd make the child better anyway, prayers or not, if He felt it was for the best?
Alternatively, suppose in His infinite wisdom for reasons we can't understand God decides that its best if the child should die. Surely God knows best in all things. Is He really going to be persuaded to change His mind by a few lowly humans who mean well but don't really understand how His Universe works?
So either way prayer would seem pretty pointless in this scenario wouldn't it even if there is a God?
Are any believers able to provide a reasonable argument against this logic and explain why they believe in the power of prayer in this sort of situtaion?
What if the leg was chewed off by a bear? What if the person was a conservationist, doing wonderful work in the woods, and along comes a bear and chews their leg off. Why don't prayers ever work for missing limbs?
Exactly.
How anyone could not see my post as 'logical' given what other people on this thread believe is beyond me.
If God does exist the only conclusion anyone could come to is that He is a sadistic, genocidal psychopath so it is probably for the best that He doesn't. ;-)
How anyone could not see my post as 'logical' given what other people on this thread believe is beyond me.
If God does exist the only conclusion anyone could come to is that He is a sadistic, genocidal psychopath so it is probably for the best that He doesn't. ;-)
Alternatively free will and collective belief in the absolute reality of the material blocks contact with the divine.
Obviously anyone who doesn't believe in God isn't going to believe in the power of prayer.
But for the sake of this argument lets all just assume for a minute that God does exist. So given that God does exist does it make sense for people to believe in the power of prayer, in the sense of asking God to do something like heal the sick? I still don't see that it does.
Suppose there's a seriously ill child in hospital and the local church all pray to God to ask Him to make the child better. What difference would this make?
God is all knowing so He would already be aware of the child's condition.
He is all powerful so is able to make the child better.
He loves and cares for us all so presumably would make the child better if He could.
So what difference would praying make? Is God really that callous and arrogant that He would only be willing to bother to heal the child if lots of people got on their knees and begged him really hard to help? Surely He'd make the child better anyway, prayers or not, if He felt it was for the best?
Alternatively, suppose in His infinite wisdom for reasons we can't understand God decides that its best if the child should die. Surely God knows best in all things. Is He really going to be persuaded to change His mind by a few lowly humans who mean well but don't really understand how His Universe works?
So either way prayer would seem pretty pointless in this scenario wouldn't it even if there is a God?
Are any believers able to provide a reasonable argument against this logic and explain why they believe in the power of prayer in this sort of situtaion?
You don't have to believe in God to pray - anyone can pray. You can pray to God, you can pray to a dead relative, you can pray to an idea, you can just pray.
A common Buddhist prayer is 'May all beings be happy, may all beings be well, may all beings find enlightenment'.
It's a powerful personal statement to make, confirming your own attitude to life and your deepest wishes. When groups of people pray together it's even more powerful, especially if prayer is verbalised. There is something very affirming about saying something out loud, as opposed to just in your head.
The big question is whether prayer benefits the target of the prayer as well as the person praying. I think it probably can, especially if the target also believes in the power of prayer. There is no obvious scientific mechanism but I think some people do have awareness that prayers are being said for them and gain strength and comfort from that.
Prayers for the recently deceased are supposed to be especially beneficial.
What if the leg was chewed off by a bear? What if the person was a conservationist, doing wonderful work in the woods, and along comes a bear and chews their leg off. Why don't prayers ever work for missing limbs?
An example of failure in natural selection to favor animals who could regenerate their legs.
This is probably why lizard people are ruling the world today.
You don't have to believe in God to pray - anyone can pray. You can pray to God, you can pray to a dead relative, you can pray to an idea, you can just pray.
A common Buddhist prayer is 'May all beings be happy, may all beings be well, may all beings find enlightenment'.
It's a powerful personal statement to make, confirming your own attitude to life and your deepest wishes. When groups of people pray together it's even more powerful, especially if prayer is verbalised. There is something very affirming about saying something out loud, as opposed to just in your head.
The big question is whether prayer benefits the target of the prayer as well as the person praying. I think it probably can, especially if the target also believes in the power of prayer. There is no obvious scientific mechanism but I think some people do have awareness that prayers are being said for them and gain strength and comfort from that.
Prayers for the recently deceased are supposed to be especially beneficial.
Sadly, when trials have been done (and there was a very large on on cardiology patients) the data shows no effect for prayer, and may suggest worse outcomes for those who know they are being prayed for (although I think that is a stretch interpretation of the data I recall seeing)
The individual may find prayer calming, but it doesn't have any effect beyond that (at least not that there is any evidence for)
Comments
It's not a get out clause.
It's a fact.
Religious people do not always act as they intellectually know they should.
I'm rather sure that people who say they make rational decisions do not always act rationally as they presume to do.
Well, as a "non believer" I'm quite happy to just accept that things happen without feeling the need to attribute them to some higher power. That's why I have absolutely no issue with saying that I don't know why bad or good things happen.
I don't know why some people die in a plane crash while others, sitting in the same part of the plane, walk away from the crash without a scratch. I can't understand why any god would "do good" by picking which ones should survive.
I don't know why, if any god has the capacity to do good, they'd need to be asked in the form of a prayer. Is the suggestion that if a god isn't asked, that good deed won't happen anyway? Can he, she or it not be trusted to do the right thing without sending the equivalent of a begging letter?
I don't know why praying to one particular god is said to work when people have, and still do, pray to a variety of gods, and all religions have, and still do, claim that their god can answer those prayers. Some of them must be wrong ... unless there's a committee of specific gods, in which case all religions are wrong!
I don't know why people claim that if something can't be explained using the knowledge of the day, it has to be "supernatural" and therefore attributable to a particular deity. I don't know, but it strikes me as the easy option for those unwilling to say "I don't know". Why is it different in principle to claim that a god must have "cured" someone because at this time we don't have a clear scientific understanding; than to have claimed that thunder must have been the work of Thor ... or Tāwhaki ... or Set ... or Whaitiri ... or any of a dozen others because at the time the science of thunder and lightning wasn't understood?
So, I can see things from the "non believer's" point of view, so I was intrigued to know if those who follow any given religion believe that their god is fully or partly responsible for good and/or bad things, especially as there have been so many gods ... all with the power to "do things".
No, 'we' probably do not but good crash investigators would by examingin the way the plane crashed, where the people were sitting, the ways the people moved during the crash.
Because most of them are fickle?
All religions are basically cults whether you claim them to not be or otherwise. They all started the same way control. Which is how modern day cults operate.
Nethwen, how do you know those are words jeebers spoke? If you say because the bible says so, that's incorrect. the bible is full of inaccuracies. Man wrote it, there the law of Chinese Whispers comes into play.
What if the leg was chewed off by a bear? What if the person was a conservationist, doing wonderful work in the woods, and along comes a bear and chews their leg off. Why don't prayers ever work for missing limbs?
Was it just the one leg?
Yes.
And the bear was brown.
I had no idea. I feel bad now. I'm sending you some emotional healing.
But for the sake of this argument lets all just assume for a minute that God does exist. So given that God does exist does it make sense for people to believe in the power of prayer, in the sense of asking God to do something like heal the sick? I still don't see that it does.
Suppose there's a seriously ill child in hospital and the local church all pray to God to ask Him to make the child better. What difference would this make?
God is all knowing so He would already be aware of the child's condition.
He is all powerful so is able to make the child better.
He loves and cares for us all so presumably would make the child better if He could.
So what difference would praying make? Is God really that callous and arrogant that He would only be willing to bother to heal the child if lots of people got on their knees and begged him really hard to help? Surely He'd make the child better anyway, prayers or not, if He felt it was for the best?
Alternatively, suppose in His infinite wisdom for reasons we can't understand God decides that its best if the child should die. Surely God knows best in all things. Is He really going to be persuaded to change His mind by a few lowly humans who mean well but don't really understand how His Universe works?
So either way prayer would seem pretty pointless in this scenario wouldn't it even if there is a God?
Are any believers able to provide a reasonable argument against this logic and explain why they believe in the power of prayer in this sort of situtaion?
Exactly.
How anyone could not see my post as 'logical' given what other people on this thread believe is beyond me.
If God does exist the only conclusion anyone could come to is that He is a sadistic, genocidal psychopath so it is probably for the best that He doesn't. ;-)
Alternatively free will and collective belief in the absolute reality of the material blocks contact with the divine.
You vastly overestimate the capacity for coherent thought that many people possess.
I go with free will over the remote chance of contacting the divine; thanks.
I'd rather have a G&T if it's all the same... Or cash.
If it helps with the pain that's fine with me...
It helps.
Here you go enjoy it.
The power of Gin compels you!
The power of Gin compels you!
The power of Gin compels you!
Your belief in hard determinism not considered a challenge to coherent thinking on this matter then?
Get me an old Pinot Noir and a young Beaujolais.
I've got Pippa Middleton's number if you want it.
You don't have to believe in God to pray - anyone can pray. You can pray to God, you can pray to a dead relative, you can pray to an idea, you can just pray.
A common Buddhist prayer is 'May all beings be happy, may all beings be well, may all beings find enlightenment'.
It's a powerful personal statement to make, confirming your own attitude to life and your deepest wishes. When groups of people pray together it's even more powerful, especially if prayer is verbalised. There is something very affirming about saying something out loud, as opposed to just in your head.
The big question is whether prayer benefits the target of the prayer as well as the person praying. I think it probably can, especially if the target also believes in the power of prayer. There is no obvious scientific mechanism but I think some people do have awareness that prayers are being said for them and gain strength and comfort from that.
Prayers for the recently deceased are supposed to be especially beneficial.
I understand you had no choice but to ask that.
An example of failure in natural selection to favor animals who could regenerate their legs.
This is probably why lizard people are ruling the world today.
Sadly, when trials have been done (and there was a very large on on cardiology patients) the data shows no effect for prayer, and may suggest worse outcomes for those who know they are being prayed for (although I think that is a stretch interpretation of the data I recall seeing)
The individual may find prayer calming, but it doesn't have any effect beyond that (at least not that there is any evidence for)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t18KDbEjYz4