I thought it implied that Hurt is the doctor, but before doctor no.1 - so like a doctor no. 0!
I get the impression that maybe the doctor was evil before becoming doctor no. 1, and he now goes around doing good because of all the bad he used to do?
It can kind of explain how recently they suggest he needs his assistants to give him a human "good" side - like he would be bad without them.
I thought it implied that Hurt is the doctor, but before doctor no.1 - so like a doctor no. 0!
I get the impression that maybe the doctor was evil before becoming doctor no. 1, and he now goes around doing good because of all the bad he used to do?
I doubt that as 11 said "He was the only one to brake the promise" you can't brake a promise you haven't made
Precisely my point validating what I am getting at. The Doctor has encountered the Valeyard before and therefore even though he is in his future he still knows who he is. Also the comment does not rule out him being a future incarnation because remember that the Doctor is very clever and would have been able to make such deductions based solely on what John Hurt said to him. But I agree that the only possible way this is a future Doctor is if it is the Valeyard but nowhere have I denied this. The use of the past tense is more or less meaningless in timetravel the events of the Valeyard have happened already even if the Docotor hasn't lived them yet and so the past tense can be used ergo I stick by my original comment. Had the Doctor given his speech to Clara before Hurt's Doctor had said what he did I would agree but because it is after I stand by what I said.
The Valeyard was never an actual incarnation of the Doctor. He was only ever a potential Doctor, who could become real only by supplanting the Doctor.
And your theory is somewhat convoluted when it is clear Eleven has been keeping Hurt secret, and that he is a past incarnation who broke the promise, not a future Doctor that Eleven is somehow aware of.
At the moment, I am leaning towards the Doctor 0 theory.
The Doctor chose his title then "didn't live up to it" (i.e. did bad stuff) and was forced to re-gen by the Time Lords. Following this he lived a peaceful life until his secret was going to be revealed so he stole a TARDIS and ran away with his granddaughter.
Another thought is that it is not the same person, but he was the previous holder of the title.
The line "He was me" goes against this though (unless it wasn't meant literally).
At the moment, I am leaning towards the Doctor 0 theory.
The Doctor chose his title then "didn't live up to it" (i.e. did bad stuff) and was forced to re-gen by the Time Lords. Following this he lived a peaceful life until his secret was going to be revealed so he stole a TARDIS and ran away with his granddaughter.
Another thought is that it is not the same person, but he was the previous holder of the title.
The line "He was me" goes against this though (unless it wasn't meant literally).
I get the feeling that they didn't start the beginning of this last episode on Gallifrey a long time ago for no good reason.
The Tardis stealing scene did appear to be significant compared to the other clips of previous Doctors.
Perhaps we'll find out why he stole the Tardis in the first place.
We get a lot of Clara saying 'Remember you Clever boy and run'. Ah, just occurred to me now, 'RUN', could that line refer to him running away in the Tardis in the first place?
Anyway, what I was saying is that he keeps getting told to 'remember', so perhaps whatever happened with the John Hurt Doctor is something which he's forgotten about.
Even though Doctor 11 seemed to be moralistic with an accusing attitude towards the John Hurt Doctor, I doubt very much that things will be as simple as that, and that it may turn out that The Doctor himself may have played a very guilty part in this action, whatever that may be.
I can quite easily go with the Doctor Zero theory.
As an aside, I really don't understand why some people say that John Hurt can't be a Doctor Zero because of the promise. I don't understand that at all. Why couldn't the John Hurt Doctor have made that promise?
If the John Hurt Doctor broke the promise then surely he must have originally made the promise.
The Valeyard was never an actual incarnation of the Doctor. He was only ever a potential Doctor, who could become real only by supplanting the Doctor.
And your theory is somewhat convoluted when it is clear Eleven has been keeping Hurt secret, and that he is a past incarnation who broke the promise, not a future Doctor that Eleven is somehow aware of.
He doesn't need to actually exist as a physical incarnation though. what's important is that he has met him before, even if he is a kind of dormant potential which resides in his psyche.
Whenever the Doctor does something terrible, something he is ashamed of, the lives he's taken, the companions he's lost or anything else he has done than is not in the 'name of the doctor', he hides them in a manifestation.
That manifestation is John Hurt's character, thus why he looks so worn and haggard, having the burden of all that shame (The Doctor has done terrible things during his 1,200 years!), but that manifestation now wants to break free. The Doctor is scared the terrible deeds he hides in this manifestation will come to light.
Whenever the Doctor does something terrible, something he is ashamed of, the lives he's taken, the companions he's lost or anything else he has done than is not in the 'name of the doctor', he hides them in a manifestation.
That manifestation is John Hurt's character, thus why he looks so worn and haggard, having the burden of all that shame (The Doctor has done terrible things during his 1,200 years!), but that manifestation now wants to break free. The Doctor is scared the terrible deeds he hides in this manifestation will come to light.
I agree. I suggested something along those lines in one or two previous posts. That The Doctor is as guilty as sin and he's in denial. The John Hurt Doctor being a convenient scapegoat to cast all the blame onto.
The acting in the final scene from both characters has a suggestion of this.
We have seen over the series since 2005 that The Doctor occasionally commits some dubious acts himself, but he tends to try to find a way to rationalize them.
We see John Hurt rationalize what he did, just the same as we have seen The Doctor we are familiar with do at times.
This bottling up and compartmentalization is probably what may lead to a danger of the manifestation of The Valeyard becoming a more likely event in the future.
The John Hurt Doctor character may be a metaphor which serves a similar function to The Picture of Dorian Gray.
'Remember you clever boy, and Run' seems to be repeating phrase this series. Could be that this alludes to The Doctor running away from his own sins.
What we need is a poll
Could JH be
1. The earliest version of the doctor?
2. An earlier version that had died and was brought back by the time lords (a bit like the master)
3. A future version
4. A time ravaged 8th doctor
5. A ham salad
*does anyone else think it's strange that Clara didn't meet any future versions of the doctor, or does the MS doctor buy the farm?
I get the feeling that they didn't start the beginning of this last episode on Gallifrey a long time ago for no good reason.
The Tardis stealing scene did appear to be significant compared to the other clips of previous Doctors.
I think that's because it's a clip of the Doctor stealing the TARDIS. We've never seen that before. It's the most momentous event in the Doctor's life - even without any added mystery.
I think that's because it's a clip of the Doctor stealing the TARDIS. We've never seen that before. It's the most momentous event in the Doctor's life - even without any added mystery.
I know. But we may be about to find out why he stole it and what the circumstances were behind it.
At the moment, I am leaning towards the Doctor 0 theory.
The Doctor chose his title then "didn't live up to it" (i.e. did bad stuff) and was forced to re-gen by the Time Lords. Following this he lived a peaceful life until his secret was going to be revealed so he stole a TARDIS and ran away with his granddaughter.
Another thought is that it is not the same person, but he was the previous holder of the title.
The line "He was me" goes against this though (unless it wasn't meant literally).
I was split between this and the in between 8 and 9.
The doctor 0 theory holds more water considering what was said to sylvester mcoys doctor in silver nemesis about his dark past, the secrets etc. that was before doc 8 and 9 but there were clear suggestions of a terrible secret.
So.. hmm, doc 0 for me now i've typed this and thought some more - would explain his departure from gallifrey...
Hasn't the doctor allways had a dark side though ?. He is clever ,powerfull and just a little bit crazy sometimes. That can be dangerous. He tries to keep control of his emotions but it doesn't allways work. He needs freinds around him. They are like a kite string keep him on an even footing. Looking forward to Novemeber and finding out more about what happened in the time war and why he went so dark.
Yes, but you could say that he's always had the Valeyard within him too.
The Valeyard was never an actual incarnation of the Doctor. He was only ever a potential Doctor, who could become real only by supplanting the Doctor.
And your theory is somewhat convoluted when it is clear Eleven has been keeping Hurt secret, and that he is a past incarnation who broke the promise, not a future Doctor that Eleven is somehow aware of.
Firstly exactly but that potential could have manifested into reality. And there is so much we don't know that just about anything could be made of it.
And really? That is the best you can come up with to disagree with my theory? The whole scenario is convoluted, we are talking about sci-fi and specifically time travel here the entire show is convoluted! Yes 11 was keeping Hurt a secret but wouldn't you want to keep such a thing secret. And again the events of the Trial of a Time Lord (not that I have watched it but from what I can tell from what I've heard and read about it) would give him insight into the Valeyard don't forget that he's had 5 lifetimes to ponder and think on that which clearly would never be that far from his mind especially drawing nearer the time when he realizes it is a real possibility that he could become the very thing he fears and despises.
He is a future doctor who acted in the past, he is the Valeyard. The doctors has met him before and he did something in the time war.
The Valeyard wasn't actually the doctor, whereas we know from the on-screen credit as well as the 11th Doctor's words that John Hurt IS the doctor. Conclusion - John Hurt is clearly not the Valeyard..
John Hurt is only called The Doctor in the screen flash.
MS says 'I said he was me I never said he was The Doctor' then says a name is like a promise and he was the one to break the promise.
He never says the name broken is the The Doctor, so to me Hurt could either be Doctor Zero, known by another name, which he then breaks the promise of, and becomes The Doctor to 'cure' the broken promise, or he is a manifestation of the bad things the Doctor has done. Both make sense with the dialogue at the end.
Comments
I get the impression that maybe the doctor was evil before becoming doctor no. 1, and he now goes around doing good because of all the bad he used to do?
It can kind of explain how recently they suggest he needs his assistants to give him a human "good" side - like he would be bad without them.
I doubt that as 11 said "He was the only one to brake the promise" you can't brake a promise you haven't made
That's Dr Who sometimes.;)
Or his grammar was wrong.;)
That's very true
The Valeyard was never an actual incarnation of the Doctor. He was only ever a potential Doctor, who could become real only by supplanting the Doctor.
And your theory is somewhat convoluted when it is clear Eleven has been keeping Hurt secret, and that he is a past incarnation who broke the promise, not a future Doctor that Eleven is somehow aware of.
The Doctor chose his title then "didn't live up to it" (i.e. did bad stuff) and was forced to re-gen by the Time Lords. Following this he lived a peaceful life until his secret was going to be revealed so he stole a TARDIS and ran away with his granddaughter.
Another thought is that it is not the same person, but he was the previous holder of the title.
The line "He was me" goes against this though (unless it wasn't meant literally).
I get the feeling that they didn't start the beginning of this last episode on Gallifrey a long time ago for no good reason.
The Tardis stealing scene did appear to be significant compared to the other clips of previous Doctors.
Perhaps we'll find out why he stole the Tardis in the first place.
We get a lot of Clara saying 'Remember you Clever boy and run'.
Ah, just occurred to me now, 'RUN', could that line refer to him running away in the Tardis in the first place?
Anyway, what I was saying is that he keeps getting told to 'remember', so perhaps whatever happened with the John Hurt Doctor is something which he's forgotten about.
Even though Doctor 11 seemed to be moralistic with an accusing attitude towards the John Hurt Doctor, I doubt very much that things will be as simple as that, and that it may turn out that The Doctor himself may have played a very guilty part in this action, whatever that may be.
I can quite easily go with the Doctor Zero theory.
As an aside, I really don't understand why some people say that John Hurt can't be a Doctor Zero because of the promise. I don't understand that at all. Why couldn't the John Hurt Doctor have made that promise?
If the John Hurt Doctor broke the promise then surely he must have originally made the promise.
He doesn't need to actually exist as a physical incarnation though. what's important is that he has met him before, even if he is a kind of dormant potential which resides in his psyche.
Whenever the Doctor does something terrible, something he is ashamed of, the lives he's taken, the companions he's lost or anything else he has done than is not in the 'name of the doctor', he hides them in a manifestation.
That manifestation is John Hurt's character, thus why he looks so worn and haggard, having the burden of all that shame (The Doctor has done terrible things during his 1,200 years!), but that manifestation now wants to break free. The Doctor is scared the terrible deeds he hides in this manifestation will come to light.
I agree. I suggested something along those lines in one or two previous posts. That The Doctor is as guilty as sin and he's in denial. The John Hurt Doctor being a convenient scapegoat to cast all the blame onto.
The acting in the final scene from both characters has a suggestion of this.
We have seen over the series since 2005 that The Doctor occasionally commits some dubious acts himself, but he tends to try to find a way to rationalize them.
We see John Hurt rationalize what he did, just the same as we have seen The Doctor we are familiar with do at times.
This bottling up and compartmentalization is probably what may lead to a danger of the manifestation of The Valeyard becoming a more likely event in the future.
The John Hurt Doctor character may be a metaphor which serves a similar function to The Picture of Dorian Gray.
'Remember you clever boy, and Run' seems to be repeating phrase this series. Could be that this alludes to The Doctor running away from his own sins.
Could JH be
1. The earliest version of the doctor?
2. An earlier version that had died and was brought back by the time lords (a bit like the master)
3. A future version
4. A time ravaged 8th doctor
5. A ham salad
*does anyone else think it's strange that Clara didn't meet any future versions of the doctor, or does the MS doctor buy the farm?
I know. But we may be about to find out why he stole it and what the circumstances were behind it.
Was that his Cosmic Homo days?
who's there?
Doctor
Doctor Who?
Correct
I was split between this and the in between 8 and 9.
The doctor 0 theory holds more water considering what was said to sylvester mcoys doctor in silver nemesis about his dark past, the secrets etc. that was before doc 8 and 9 but there were clear suggestions of a terrible secret.
So.. hmm, doc 0 for me now i've typed this and thought some more
Yes, but you could say that he's always had the Valeyard within him too.
Firstly exactly but that potential could have manifested into reality. And there is so much we don't know that just about anything could be made of it.
And really? That is the best you can come up with to disagree with my theory? The whole scenario is convoluted, we are talking about sci-fi and specifically time travel here the entire show is convoluted! Yes 11 was keeping Hurt a secret but wouldn't you want to keep such a thing secret. And again the events of the Trial of a Time Lord (not that I have watched it but from what I can tell from what I've heard and read about it) would give him insight into the Valeyard don't forget that he's had 5 lifetimes to ponder and think on that which clearly would never be that far from his mind especially drawing nearer the time when he realizes it is a real possibility that he could become the very thing he fears and despises.
The Valeyard wasn't actually the doctor, whereas we know from the on-screen credit as well as the 11th Doctor's words that John Hurt IS the doctor. Conclusion - John Hurt is clearly not the Valeyard..
Wow, most of us are still guessing, good call!
MS says 'I said he was me I never said he was The Doctor' then says a name is like a promise and he was the one to break the promise.
He never says the name broken is the The Doctor, so to me Hurt could either be Doctor Zero, known by another name, which he then breaks the promise of, and becomes The Doctor to 'cure' the broken promise, or he is a manifestation of the bad things the Doctor has done. Both make sense with the dialogue at the end.