I like him as the Doctor, he's been given some daft stuff to do though. That plus he still has Clara, who I don't like, at all. Missy is just...I dunno. The Master has just been portrayed as a complete loon since Who came back, clever, but absolutely insane and fairly annoying after a while. Missy just continues that, clever, but obsessed with the Doctor, and nuts in a fairly generic comic book way.
Agree with the comic booky vibe the Master has had in his two latest incarnations, the Joker be the prime example to compare them too, manic hysterical and obsessed with their good counterpart.
Manipulative okay a bit, but it wasn't the same way as the others. We didn't see her get under someone's skin and play on their weaknesses like the other Masters. It was just she set up an evil company that was that.
You did watch the scene with Osgood, right? And the very scene you have a problem with - adopting a fake robot identity to play with the Doctor, then being uncomfortably intimate. Everything designed to keep him guessing, confused and out of control.
Also her plan was stupid. She gave up an army of Cybermen to him with no way of taking it back. And if she wanted to lure him in as an ally wouldn't it have been better to not kill all his friends and billions of innocent people?
Her plan was to corrupt him, bring him down to her level. She didn't want him as an ally, she just wanted to prove that he was no better than her. She was the quintessential Devil tempting Christ. In a churchyard, surrounded by an army of lost souls, no less.
Her plan was to corrupt him, bring him down to her level. She didn't want him as an ally, she just wanted to prove that he was no better than her. She was the quintessential Devil tempting Christ. In a churchyard, surrounded by an army of lost souls, no less.
As much as I don't like the Doctor being likened to Jesus too extensively, I like this analogy.
Although I do think, ultimately, she wanted him back as a friend, but her method was to break him.
But that's just the Master. If she wasn't a sociopathic megalomaniac, they could have been friends long ago.
As much as I don't like the Doctor being likened to Jesus too extensively, I like this analogy.
Although I do think, ultimately, she wanted him back as a friend, but her method was to break him.
But that's just the Master. If she wasn't a sociopathic megalomaniac, they could have been friends long ago.
Yeah, I'm glad they've been giving attention to this - both showrunners have steered the Master away from being just a moustache-twirling embodiment of evil.
In a way, this scene (and Missy's plan) is the flip-side of Last of the Time Lords - where the Doctor attempted to raise the Master to his own level because he wanted them to be friends, even travel together. It's nice to know, in their own twisted ways, they both think this could happen, but refuse to agree terms.
What I don't get about the Doctor is why he keeps defending Master /Missy know matter what his old friend rival does she still gets away with it . Using her new female body to tease and torment him. Well two can play that game. Should have told her "I have been on some pretty spectacular benders in my time but I have never been, and will never be that drunk!". Only a few months before we see their next confrontation.
What I don't get about the Doctor is why he keeps defending Master /Missy know matter what his old friend rival does she still gets away with it . Using her new female body to tease and torment him. Well two can play that game. Should have told her "I have been on some pretty spectacular benders in my time but I have never been, and will never be that drunk!". Only a few months before we see their next confrontation.
He was about to bump her off when they last met We can blame 12's joyous sleigh ride for the next act of leniency.
(Well he was more likely to shoot the sky or the ground by the way he was holding that device, so who knows. Wonder if she'll steal it back from him)
i'm a little disappointed so far. Capaldi is a great actor and he is really excellent at delivering sarky one liners but I really think Coleman has been given preference over him by the script writers so far.
I really want to see him take control, not leave decisions to Clara and become the dominant force in the show. We need the doctor to be much more important than the companion.
What I don't get about the Doctor is why he keeps defending Master /Missy know matter what his old friend rival does she still gets away with it . Using her new female body to tease and torment him. Well two can play that game. Should have told her "I have been on some pretty spectacular benders in my time but I have never been, and will never be that drunk!". Only a few months before we see their next confrontation.
I've always thought that is is because the Master is the only other Timelord in existence and however badly he behaves, killing him would be a bit like killing a member of your close family. The Master is the only person in existence who can remember Gallifrey and they have a long complicated history.
How was she manipulative? Who did she manipulate? How was she suave? How was she in any way like the other Masters. That's the point even though they all change a little bit on the surface they are all still the same man underneath.
Missy is not even remotely believable. But hey I gues you're right we are not gonna agree on this.
Missy is just a stupid character all around.
Missy - and the Master as played in NewWho - are not menacing, just unintelligent loose cannons, and silly.
Delgado played the Master as a real intelligent opponent for the Doctor and a menace to the Universe.
sigh. No matter what logic I give in support of her, your just going to say whatever ive said isn't the case so whatever, I give up. As i've said, you don't like her, which is entirely up to you, but she is the master now, and nothing you say will change that.
You did watch the scene with Osgood, right? And the very scene you have a problem with - adopting a fake robot identity to play with the Doctor, then being uncomfortably intimate. Everything designed to keep him guessing, confused and out of control.
Her plan was to corrupt him, bring him down to her level. She didn't want him as an ally, she just wanted to prove that he was no better than her. She was the quintessential Devil tempting Christ. In a churchyard, surrounded by an army of lost souls, no less.
You are kidding right? Missy was manipulative in that bit with Osgood?
That was the single worst bit of writing I have ever seen.
Missy suddenly gained teleporting powers. That's the only way she could have put the handcuffs in Osgood's pocket or suddenly appeared behind her from half way across the room!
It was laughable. You can't suddenly give a villain teleporting powers LOL. Why not have it that the Master can just breath fire all of a sudden. I mean seriously if you'd like to explain how the Master suddenly got half way across the room I'd love to hear it. It wasn't a case of subtle manipulation it was more a case of her suddenly getting a magic power because Moffat was too lazy to think of a way for her to get free.
Also why did the guards not bother to do anything when she threatened to kill Osgood? Why didn't one react when the one next to him was being shot?
Also why did UNIT leave only two guards down there and why did they not give Osgood a weapon? And why did they not take the Masters weapon away from her LOL. They lft her weapon on her I mean seriously?
Also why did Kate and the Doctor who were watching her on the big screen earlier not do anything?
It wasn't a case of Missy being manipulative it was a case of Missy gaining magic powers and UNIT being portrayed as comically inept in a scene that felt more like a parody.
Also the 3W bit proves my point. The old Masters were manipulative in clever ways, how is Missy manipulative? She kisses the Doctor big wow.
And her plan was stupid. As if the Doctor would be tempted by a Cyber army. She should know that. And wouldn't she have had a better chance tempting him by not killing his friends, giving him an army of his worst enemies and kissing him?
Plus that's a horrible cliche anyway. She even said "we're not so different you and I" LOL
Missy suddenly gained teleporting powers. That's the only way she could have put the handcuffs in Osgood's pocket or suddenly appeared behind her from half way across the room!
It was laughable. You can't suddenly give a villain teleporting powers LOL. Why not have it that the Master can just breath fire all of a sudden. I mean seriously if you'd like to explain how the Master suddenly got half way across the room I'd love to hear it. It wasn't a case of subtle manipulation it was more a case of her suddenly getting a magic power because Moffat was too lazy to think of a way for her to get free.
Also why did the guards not bother to do anything when she threatened to kill Osgood? Why didn't one react when the one next to him was being shot?
Also why did UNIT leave only two guards down there and why did they not give Osgood a weapon? And why did they not take the Masters weapon away from her LOL. They lft her weapon on her I mean seriously?
Also why did Kate and the Doctor who were watching her on the big screen earlier not do anything?
It wasn't a case of Missy being manipulative it was a case of Missy gaining magic powers and UNIT being portrayed as comically inept in a scene that felt more like a parody.
Other views aside, I didn't much care for that scene either. It's pretty clear she had a teleport device built into that black, spiky bracelet, so I have no idea why they didn't remove it or why those two UNIT guards weren't watching her every movement. So Steven Moffat wanted to demonstrate that there is no insane, psychotic murderous act that Missy is not capable of by killing off a popular character - getting that, but I think the whole scenario could have been a lot more plausible.
You are kidding right? Missy was manipulative in that bit with Osgood?
Oh, yes. Very. She dared Osgood to stand up to her, double-bluffed for fun, used Osgood's desire for approval from the Doctor. If Osgood hadn't been manipulated, she would have raised the alarm or got out of there as fast as she could.
Also why did the guards not bother to do anything when she threatened to kill Osgood? Why didn't one react when the one next to him was being shot?
Also why did UNIT leave only two guards down there and why did they not give Osgood a weapon? And why did they not take the Masters weapon away from her LOL. They lft her weapon on her I mean seriously?
Also why did Kate and the Doctor who were watching her on the big screen earlier not do anything?
These are all problems. They're utterly irrelevant to the discussion of Missy's character, though.
i'm a little disappointed so far. Capaldi is a great actor and he is really excellent at delivering sarky one liners but I really think Coleman has been given preference over him by the script writers so far.
I really want to see him take control, not leave decisions to Clara and become the dominant force in the show. We need the doctor to be much more important than the companion.
I agree with this, Peter Capaldi is wonderful but I think he's being sold short with the writing. I'd love to see a few Clara free episodes, with Twelve meeting different people on his own and making his own decisions.
As for Missy, I liked her and Michelle Gomez is great, but not sure I want to see her again so soon. She should have come back next year instead.
I agree with this, Peter Capaldi is wonderful but I think he's being sold short with the writing. I'd love to see a few Clara free episodes, with Twelve meeting different people on his own and making his own decisions.
Generally, I have no problem with companion-lite episodes, but given how internal he is, I do think this incarnation is the least likely to be able to function in the story without someone challenging him and trying to draw out his thinking process. He's just less expressive and outgoing than his predecessors. I don't know - maybe I'm selling the writers short, I'm sure they could make it work.
I wonder sometimes why some people watch drama at all let alone Science Fiction. The clues in the name by the way.
Also. Is randomly inserting LOL into forum posts something all the cool kids are doing these days like saying 'bae' and things being 'goals as f' and buying some clothes freely available on the Top Shop website and calling it Cosplay? Just checking because I am getting so so so old.
For the record the scene that seems to have caused some excitable viewers to spit out their Coco Pops in righteous indignation was beautifully written and structured and managed to convey a palpable sense of genuine menace (something sorely lacking in New Who) as well as an air of devilish fun and mischief that was properly in keeping with the spirit of the character and the show as it should be written. Taking apart the logic of that scene and breaking it down as though it's something that actually happened is utterly joyless and pointless. Do we ask Hans Gruber and Blofeld and Darth Vader why they do what they do in the way that they do? Of course it would be simpler if Spectre hired some innocuous and well secured office space on the outskirts of a business park in Switzerland rather than hollowing out a volcano. It would be practical to hire some ex-special forces rather than a random band of Ninjas. And as for strapping someone to a metal slab and pointing a terribly slow lazer at them...well you see where I'm going with this.
Millions wouldn't watch it. Roald Dahl understood this. Steven Moffat understands this. It's why he's writing the show and not writing about it on a forum.
Also. Anti-Moffat hypochrisy example no. 5627:
It's fine for The Master to be able to fly like Captain Marvel and cannibalise humans so neatly and tidily they look like a Primary School science class skeleton but if the Master is able to move across a room in a way that doesn't quite fit with established laws of physics then it's BAD WRITING. Sack him! Sack him now!
I wonder sometimes why some people watch drama at all let alone Science Fiction. The clues in the name by the way.
Also. Is randomly inserting LOL into forum posts something all the cool kids are doing these days like saying 'bae' and things being 'goals as f' and buying some clothes freely available on the Top Shop website and calling it Cosplay? Just checking because I am getting so so so old.
For the record the scene that seems to have caused some excitable viewers to spit out their Coco Pops in righteous indignation was beautifully written and structured and managed to convey a palpable sense of genuine menace (something sorely lacking in New Who) as well as an air of devilish fun and mischief that was properly in keeping with the spirit of the character and the show as it should be written. Taking apart the logic of that scene and breaking it down as though it's something that actually happened is utterly joyless and pointless. Do we ask Hans Gruber and Blofeld and Darth Vader why they do what they do in the way that they do? Of course it would be simpler if Spectre hired some innocuous and well secured office space on the outskirts of a business park in Switzerland rather than hollowing out a volcano. It would be practical to hire some ex-special forces rather than a random band of Ninjas. And as for strapping someone to a metal slab and pointing a terribly slow lazer at them...well you see where I'm going with this.
Millions wouldn't watch it. Roald Dahl understood this. Steven Moffat understands this. It's why he's writing the show and not writing about it on a forum.
Also. Anti-Moffat hypochrisy example no. 5627:
It's fine for The Master to be able to fly like Captain Marvel and cannibalise humans so neatly and tidily they look like a Primary School science class skeleton but if the Master is able to move across a room in a way that doesn't quite fit with established laws of physics then it's BAD WRITING. Sack him! Sack him now!
Okay first of all that's a poor defense of it. Making out that Moffat is better just because he is writing the show. I wont begrudge him of his success and his talent in other areas as a writer, but him being the writer of the show does NOT mean he is above criticism.
Hey you just criticized RTD's writing of the Master. Do you think it would be fair to say "you're wrong and RTD is right and that's why he oversaw 4 years of the show not you"?
JNT oversaw 9 years of the show longer than anyone but I don't think Whovians have ever shied away from criticizing him!
And I am not being an anti Moffat hypocrite. At what point did I say that I liked the Master having laser powers and devouring people in The End of Time?
Yes it was stupid, but to be fair even it wasn't as stupid as Osgood's death.
Both looked ridiculous yes and both smack of a writer being unable to make the Master scary in a subtle, understated way like Survival so they suddenly give him super powers and have him kill people for no reason other than "I''MMMMMMMM CRRRAAAAAAAZZZZZZZZZYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!.
However at least RTD actually explained his. Its clearly stated that the Master's resurrection was botched and his life energy is depleting. He harnesses the little life force as energy beams which he uses to blast himself in the air and he also drains the life force from other people turning them into the skeletons in order to survive.
Now that explanation is crap and stupid and poorly thought out yes, but at least RTD tried.
With Missy teleporting and Kate and the Doctor watching her on the big screen and not doing anything about her killing Osgood that they must have watched, there is no explanation!
Like I said its suddenly like the Master breathing fire on people and The Doctor just standing by and watching somebody get blown up.
That's not like Blofeld at all. Yes Blofeld is OTT but we don't have a scene where he is imprisoned and there is no way realistically for him to get out so he just magically flies out of the prison. And we don't have it that Bond is watching him on a big screen but then forget that three seconds later when he shoots five people down there.
And it was not dramatic. The scene was badly written and on Michelle Gomez's part badly acted. She looked turned on or like she was taking a crap or drunk or all three when she was around Osgood.
It also served no purpose in the story. Seriously what was the reason Osgood died?
Don't say to make the Master scary because first of all thanks to Gomez's awful acting and the ridiculousness of the scene it didn't work (for me at least).
Second of all that's lazy writing to try and make a villain seem scary you just kill a character off. Look at the first Dalek story. Did Terry Nation just have the Daleks zap Susan?
Would you have preferred it if he did? Tossed away all the potential of that character for a cheap thrill?
Instead Nation actually worked hard to make the Daleks seem scary and as a result he didn't need to kill off Susan or Ian or Barbara. Hell he made the Daleks seem like the ultimate monster and they only kill one no name Thal!
Also Osgood's death played no part in the narrative whatsoever. The Doctor saw her glasses and didn't even give a toss about her death three seconds later. We didn't even see Kate's reaction to her death!
It was literally nothing but cheap "lets kill somebody to make it trend on twitter" writing.
PS I for one am sick of shows killing characters off nowadays. IMO its become a cliche.
Yeah okay back when B7 did it it was fairly shocking and new, but nowadays my god its such a cliche and its annoying the way everyone thinks its edgy. It would be more original NOT to kill somebody off.
Good points maybe some of it will be sorted out when she returns in the two part S9 premiere. Kate is there with Doctor and Clara. All 3 of them should make it clear that Osgoods murder will not be forgiven or forgotten
Comments
Agree with the comic booky vibe the Master has had in his two latest incarnations, the Joker be the prime example to compare them too, manic hysterical and obsessed with their good counterpart.
I've tried, really I have, but I have absolutely no idea what you are saying here.
Her plan was to corrupt him, bring him down to her level. She didn't want him as an ally, she just wanted to prove that he was no better than her. She was the quintessential Devil tempting Christ. In a churchyard, surrounded by an army of lost souls, no less.
Although I do think, ultimately, she wanted him back as a friend, but her method was to break him.
But that's just the Master. If she wasn't a sociopathic megalomaniac, they could have been friends long ago.
Yeah, I'm glad they've been giving attention to this - both showrunners have steered the Master away from being just a moustache-twirling embodiment of evil.
In a way, this scene (and Missy's plan) is the flip-side of Last of the Time Lords - where the Doctor attempted to raise the Master to his own level because he wanted them to be friends, even travel together. It's nice to know, in their own twisted ways, they both think this could happen, but refuse to agree terms.
He was about to bump her off when they last met
(Well he was more likely to shoot the sky or the ground by the way he was holding that device, so who knows. Wonder if she'll steal it back from him)
Lots of potential, hampered by average writing, mostly.
I really want to see him take control, not leave decisions to Clara and become the dominant force in the show. We need the doctor to be much more important than the companion.
I've always thought that is is because the Master is the only other Timelord in existence and however badly he behaves, killing him would be a bit like killing a member of your close family. The Master is the only person in existence who can remember Gallifrey and they have a long complicated history.
Missy - and the Master as played in NewWho - are not menacing, just unintelligent loose cannons, and silly.
Delgado played the Master as a real intelligent opponent for the Doctor and a menace to the Universe.
However yeah I guess this is all just opinion like you said.
That was the single worst bit of writing I have ever seen.
Missy suddenly gained teleporting powers. That's the only way she could have put the handcuffs in Osgood's pocket or suddenly appeared behind her from half way across the room!
It was laughable. You can't suddenly give a villain teleporting powers LOL. Why not have it that the Master can just breath fire all of a sudden. I mean seriously if you'd like to explain how the Master suddenly got half way across the room I'd love to hear it. It wasn't a case of subtle manipulation it was more a case of her suddenly getting a magic power because Moffat was too lazy to think of a way for her to get free.
Also why did the guards not bother to do anything when she threatened to kill Osgood? Why didn't one react when the one next to him was being shot?
Also why did UNIT leave only two guards down there and why did they not give Osgood a weapon? And why did they not take the Masters weapon away from her LOL. They lft her weapon on her I mean seriously?
Also why did Kate and the Doctor who were watching her on the big screen earlier not do anything?
It wasn't a case of Missy being manipulative it was a case of Missy gaining magic powers and UNIT being portrayed as comically inept in a scene that felt more like a parody.
Also the 3W bit proves my point. The old Masters were manipulative in clever ways, how is Missy manipulative? She kisses the Doctor big wow.
And her plan was stupid. As if the Doctor would be tempted by a Cyber army. She should know that. And wouldn't she have had a better chance tempting him by not killing his friends, giving him an army of his worst enemies and kissing him?
Plus that's a horrible cliche anyway. She even said "we're not so different you and I" LOL
Other views aside, I didn't much care for that scene either. It's pretty clear she had a teleport device built into that black, spiky bracelet, so I have no idea why they didn't remove it or why those two UNIT guards weren't watching her every movement. So Steven Moffat wanted to demonstrate that there is no insane, psychotic murderous act that Missy is not capable of by killing off a popular character - getting that, but I think the whole scenario could have been a lot more plausible.
These are all problems. They're utterly irrelevant to the discussion of Missy's character, though.
I agree with this, Peter Capaldi is wonderful but I think he's being sold short with the writing. I'd love to see a few Clara free episodes, with Twelve meeting different people on his own and making his own decisions.
As for Missy, I liked her and Michelle Gomez is great, but not sure I want to see her again so soon. She should have come back next year instead.
Also. Is randomly inserting LOL into forum posts something all the cool kids are doing these days like saying 'bae' and things being 'goals as f' and buying some clothes freely available on the Top Shop website and calling it Cosplay? Just checking because I am getting so so so old.
For the record the scene that seems to have caused some excitable viewers to spit out their Coco Pops in righteous indignation was beautifully written and structured and managed to convey a palpable sense of genuine menace (something sorely lacking in New Who) as well as an air of devilish fun and mischief that was properly in keeping with the spirit of the character and the show as it should be written. Taking apart the logic of that scene and breaking it down as though it's something that actually happened is utterly joyless and pointless. Do we ask Hans Gruber and Blofeld and Darth Vader why they do what they do in the way that they do? Of course it would be simpler if Spectre hired some innocuous and well secured office space on the outskirts of a business park in Switzerland rather than hollowing out a volcano. It would be practical to hire some ex-special forces rather than a random band of Ninjas. And as for strapping someone to a metal slab and pointing a terribly slow lazer at them...well you see where I'm going with this.
Millions wouldn't watch it. Roald Dahl understood this. Steven Moffat understands this. It's why he's writing the show and not writing about it on a forum.
Also. Anti-Moffat hypochrisy example no. 5627:
It's fine for The Master to be able to fly like Captain Marvel and cannibalise humans so neatly and tidily they look like a Primary School science class skeleton but if the Master is able to move across a room in a way that doesn't quite fit with established laws of physics then it's BAD WRITING. Sack him! Sack him now!
Hey you just criticized RTD's writing of the Master. Do you think it would be fair to say "you're wrong and RTD is right and that's why he oversaw 4 years of the show not you"?
JNT oversaw 9 years of the show longer than anyone but I don't think Whovians have ever shied away from criticizing him!
And I am not being an anti Moffat hypocrite. At what point did I say that I liked the Master having laser powers and devouring people in The End of Time?
Yes it was stupid, but to be fair even it wasn't as stupid as Osgood's death.
Both looked ridiculous yes and both smack of a writer being unable to make the Master scary in a subtle, understated way like Survival so they suddenly give him super powers and have him kill people for no reason other than "I''MMMMMMMM CRRRAAAAAAAZZZZZZZZZYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!.
However at least RTD actually explained his. Its clearly stated that the Master's resurrection was botched and his life energy is depleting. He harnesses the little life force as energy beams which he uses to blast himself in the air and he also drains the life force from other people turning them into the skeletons in order to survive.
Now that explanation is crap and stupid and poorly thought out yes, but at least RTD tried.
With Missy teleporting and Kate and the Doctor watching her on the big screen and not doing anything about her killing Osgood that they must have watched, there is no explanation!
Like I said its suddenly like the Master breathing fire on people and The Doctor just standing by and watching somebody get blown up.
That's not like Blofeld at all. Yes Blofeld is OTT but we don't have a scene where he is imprisoned and there is no way realistically for him to get out so he just magically flies out of the prison. And we don't have it that Bond is watching him on a big screen but then forget that three seconds later when he shoots five people down there.
And it was not dramatic. The scene was badly written and on Michelle Gomez's part badly acted. She looked turned on or like she was taking a crap or drunk or all three when she was around Osgood.
It also served no purpose in the story. Seriously what was the reason Osgood died?
Don't say to make the Master scary because first of all thanks to Gomez's awful acting and the ridiculousness of the scene it didn't work (for me at least).
Second of all that's lazy writing to try and make a villain seem scary you just kill a character off. Look at the first Dalek story. Did Terry Nation just have the Daleks zap Susan?
Would you have preferred it if he did? Tossed away all the potential of that character for a cheap thrill?
Instead Nation actually worked hard to make the Daleks seem scary and as a result he didn't need to kill off Susan or Ian or Barbara. Hell he made the Daleks seem like the ultimate monster and they only kill one no name Thal!
Also Osgood's death played no part in the narrative whatsoever. The Doctor saw her glasses and didn't even give a toss about her death three seconds later. We didn't even see Kate's reaction to her death!
It was literally nothing but cheap "lets kill somebody to make it trend on twitter" writing.
PS I for one am sick of shows killing characters off nowadays. IMO its become a cliche.
Yeah okay back when B7 did it it was fairly shocking and new, but nowadays my god its such a cliche and its annoying the way everyone thinks its edgy. It would be more original NOT to kill somebody off.
Lets be honest - she was invented to spout fan service, nothing more. Lynda with a Y had more potential.