Doc Martin (Part 17 — Spoilers)

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  • MofromcoMofromco Posts: 1,339
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    dcdmfan wrote: »
    I guess my skills of satire and irony need polishing. It was a joke.

    Be careful when trying to make a joke here...it can blow up in your face as I personally know. Satire and sarcasm are not part of some people's repertoire. It is how I grew up and coped with some of the ridiculousness in my life's situations, but some just don't get it. dc.....I am much more careful now
  • MofromcoMofromco Posts: 1,339
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    Lizzie_cUS wrote: »
    I wondered the same thing but not so much about the bottle, the jar or the red glass tumbler. The plate incident this series obviously triggered something, but what? That's the mystery oftentimes with this programme and the details that those of us in the US see or pay attention to but the Brits brush off. ;) The backstory is often not revealed (if there is one) or it is subtly revealed over time. I think that's why it keeps me fascinated over the years. What will happen and why did it happen? It's fun to look back and see how minor things reveal themselves in a big way. Even this latest brain issue with L. Was it something that developed over time and was only caught in the recent scan or was it a result of her being hit by the car? All of those times she fainted in past episodes...is it just now coming to light why it was happening?

    She was born with it..the accident had absolutely nothing to do with it...as to her fainting....I doubt it had anything to do with it or she would be dead.
  • SapphicGrrlSapphicGrrl Posts: 3,992
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    Mofromco wrote: »
    Be careful when trying to make a joke here...it can blow up in your face as I personally know. Satire and sarcasm are not part of some people's repertoire. It is how I grew up and coped with some of the ridiculousness in my life's situations, but some just don't get it. dc.....I am much more careful now
    I am what I am and I can't help it - but today I did try to explain myself a bit. This thread interests me & I like trying to help people - but there are some wide-eyed romantics here & I see no reason to provoke them with cheeky razzing just because I can. (I'm an ADD sufferer so I've had to rein myself in all my life, lol.)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 594
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    Lexus, but no Martin as an option.
    Blue-Eyes wrote: »
    Not even an inflatable model ?

    Now there's an idea for the Gift Shop...

    :rolleyes:

    Thought of it, but I was too much a gentleman to bring it up. No way I would inflate your hopes...

    Rob
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 911
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    Mofromco wrote: »
    Be careful when trying to make a joke here...it can blow up in your face as I personally know. Satire and sarcasm are not part of some people's repertoire. It is how I grew up and coped with some of the ridiculousness in my life's situations, but some just don't get it. dc.....I am much more careful now

    Thanks for providing annotation, dcdmfan! I guess the key to telling a good joke is that people know you're joking. Sadly, I have no sense of humor.
  • SusieSagitariusSusieSagitarius Posts: 1,250
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    It seems to be a constant trawl for wacky new subjects that haven't been covered yet, however invasive the programme may be - some of this is vaguely interesting, but it also attracts the worst kind of inbred weirdos who are only too happy to take the money and run. (The latest 'reality' show being peddled over here is 'Duck Dynasty' - I took one look and thought, "Not another bunch of bearded rednecks!" I don't know who actually does watch these shows over here - nobody I know! Although my OH does occasionally sneak a peek at Pawn Stars and Storage Wars, lol.)

    SapphicGrrl, you are correct about the incessant trawl. And I apologize that you now have Duck Dynasty, too. I found it interesting when in the UK last year, how I'd flip channels and within a short time figure out the name of the US version of whatever was showing. I guess it's down to our global economy and global sharing of stuff of all kinds. Thank you, Internet, sometimes a lot, sometimes not so much! But without it how could we talk about our dear DM and MC, CC, et al.
  • SusieSagitariusSusieSagitarius Posts: 1,250
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    Mofromco wrote: »
    I wanted to go back and check about the frog story. When it was in S5E6. Martin tells Louisa he was give the frog to KILL and dissect. Grandad and/or members of his family wanted him to kill it first. Pretty sick for a 5 year old.

    There is also another factor that some have brought up and that may play a part in the whole scenario....broken glass....starting with the glass and Holly's blood in S3..... Going on to the dream in S5 where he breaks the jar with the butterfly...which is really Louisa breaking his red glass tumbler ...then onto him dropping the plate when his mother touches him. It's not clear what the meaning of this is but I believe the theme is important. I am going to start a series rewatch and see if there were any hints we may have missed.

    'Preciate you takin' one for the team here, Mofromco. :D
  • SusieSagitariusSusieSagitarius Posts: 1,250
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    I am what I am and I can't help it - but today I did try to explain myself a bit. This thread interests me & I like trying to help people - but there are some wide-eyed romantics here & I see no reason to provoke them with cheeky razzing just because I can. (I'm an ADD sufferer so I've had to rein myself in all my life, lol.)

    And I appreciate that you did try to explain yourself a bit. I read your posts with interest. Cheeky razzing is mostly well tolerated here as long as we really know that is what it is. It has taken everyone here a while to get to know each other, but it makes the conversation much easier once we do. I like to think we get a sense of each other's sensibilities, and experience, and lens for seeing things. But it usually isn't right off the bat. These things take time, just like Doc's and Louisa's relationship.:)
  • SusieSagitariusSusieSagitarius Posts: 1,250
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    robspace54 wrote: »
    ...

    Thought of it, but I was too much a gentleman to bring it up. No way I would inflate your hopes...

    Rob

    (loud groaning)

    Shoot! I'd settle for a life-size flat cardboard version!

    But we appreciate your good nature about these things, rob, and for being a gentleman.:cool:
  • MofromcoMofromco Posts: 1,339
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    'Preciate you takin' one for the team here, Mofromco. :D

    Already on S1 E3....true torture but a bit informative.....there are many more less tolerant than you SusieSagitarius...don't really understand
  • mmDerdekeammDerdekea Posts: 1,719
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    Paperchase wrote: »
    Mofromco:
    I think you've stumbled on to something here. ME has spent his entire life "fixing" things. The clock did not work, he spent hours working on it until it did. The occupation he chose, surgery is one of "fixing" the vascular system of people.

    I imagine maybe that's why he gets so frustrated as a medical clinician. He will give advise and prescriptions, but unless people follow his advise, they will not get better.

    Then there's the frog. He was given the frog to dissect. I imagine that as Martin, the child, thought if he dissected the frog and then put it back together, it would live again. His grandfather might have not been aware that children at age 5 have no concept of death. Martin was expecting the frog to come back to life when he put all the pieces back together. He blamed himself when it never came back to life. He thought he did it incorrectly.

    Again, we're back to one of the reasons why he became a surgeon. This undoing process. (Very Freudian)

    Without a doubt, I strongly believe everything in DM does not have a meaning.

    I'm not sure why everyone is focused on the watch being supposedly one minute behind the clock; for me, no doubt they set the clock handles on the larger clock as close to the same time on his watch. I do not believe there is any deep dark signal they are trying to pass on to the audience, except DM was not able to focus on his patient (which is always indicating a significant disturbance in his mood).

    DM is not unique in being a physician who is programmed to want to effectively treat people and get frustrated when his patients do not follow his directions. All of us physicians, of course, feel the same way. That comes with the career in any caring doc.

    In reality, we have no idea what 5 year old DM thought about when he was presented with a frog to kill and dissect. We cannot really make any type of firm analysis of if that episode affected him and if so, in what ways. It does conjure up a possible emotional reaction in him, given that the only shot of DM as a child was a boy who gently caught butterflies, which seems to be the antithesis of a more aggressive child who would deliberately kill living beings. Was he eager to kill and dissect or forced into it? We simply do not know. He wanted his grandfather's regard, though, and in fact, wanted to show his grandfather up, which is why he became such a master clock fixer. We do not know if his grandfather treated him as badly as he had treated his own children.

    We do not know all the reasons he wanted to be a physician, which seems anyway a positive career goal to have his whole life, being surrounded by male role models who were physicians, and being no doubt innately gifted and drawn to that field from childhood on.

    If we wanted to over-analyze, we could say, "well, he did a very bad job on the frog", as he told Edith, so he became a surgeon to show his grandfather and father he was a better surgeon than they were. We could say a lot of stuff like that, but it's all extrapolation.

    Whether the frog was a key is unsure. We do not know if his grandfather or parents or being sent to boarding school or any or all of those aspects of his young self caused any or all particular problems in him.

    I suppose we'll get that figured out next season, in one hopes a much better written season than the one we just experienced.
  • dcdmfandcdmfan Posts: 1,540
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    Lizzie_cUS wrote: »
    I wondered the same thing but not so much about the bottle, the jar or the red glass tumbler. The plate incident this series obviously triggered something, but what? That's the mystery oftentimes with this programme and the details that those of us in the US see or pay attention to but the Brits brush off. ;) The backstory is often not revealed (if there is one) or it is subtly revealed over time. I think that's why it keeps me fascinated over the years. What will happen and why did it happen? It's fun to look back and see how minor things reveal themselves in a big way. Even this latest brain issue with L. Was it something that developed over time and was only caught in the recent scan or was it a result of her being hit by the car? All of those times she fainted in past episodes...is it just now coming to light why it was happening?

    When he dropped and broke the plate the camera focused down on him with his mother above him. It put him back into a position as though he was a little boy again and his mother is scolding him for something. It looked like he jerked his hand away when she tried to grab his arm. She was trying to dominate him like she did when he was a boy. He was in a submissive pose to his mother when he was cleaning up the broken plate. Louisa saw him break the plate but didn't react to it. She was neutral and certainly not scolding. She is the opposite of his mother.

    In the episode where she breaks his Venetian glass tumbler he did not react badly. He only sort of grunted and said let me help you and then helped sweep it up. His fear in series 5 was that he would be like his father. He already was not acting like his father when he didn't scold Louisa for breaking something of value. His father would have yelled at Louisa like the father in his dream had done.
  • ZarwenZarwen Posts: 249
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    Mofromco wrote: »
    Be careful when trying to make a joke here...it can blow up in your face as I personally know. Satire and sarcasm are not part of some people's repertoire. It is how I grew up and coped with some of the ridiculousness in my life's situations, but some just don't get it. dc.....I am much more careful now

    Besides, we don't have the benefit of vocal tone or inflection here in cyberspace.;)
  • dcdmfandcdmfan Posts: 1,540
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    Paperchase wrote: »

    Then there's the frog. He was given the frog to dissect. I imagine that as Martin, the child, thought if he dissected the frog and then put it back together, it would live again. His grandfather might have not been aware that children at age 5 have no concept of death. Martin was expecting the frog to come back to life when he put all the pieces back together. He blamed himself when it never came back to life. He thought he did it incorrectly.

    Again, we're back to one of the reasons why he became a surgeon. This undoing process. (Very Freudian)

    I like that! It makes sense to me. I was horrified when he said his grandfather had him kill and dissect the frog. It makes perfect sense to me that a 5 year old boy might think that he could put the frog back together. His grandfather had to be a moron not to think that it is a horrible thing to make a 5 year old kill a living creature. His parents certainly hid behind the excuse of "that is what one did in those days" to justify their abuse. In series 5 Ruth tells Martin that his parents let him cry and Martin said "thinking has changed since then, it never did me any harm". Maybe now he is finally breaking through his denial that his parents abused him.
  • VetinariVetinari Posts: 3,335
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    mmDerdekea wrote: »
    Without a doubt, I strongly believe everything in DM does not have a meaning.

    I absolutely agree.

    I like DM but there is no way I could defend the writing, as it is almost unbelievably sloppy.

    The programme is filled to the brim with utter absurdity and, more importantly, inconsistency, which makes it futile to try and divine deep meaning, especially over series boundaries.

    For example, DM is supposed to be an extremely good doctor.

    And yet he's been told about a patient who is suspected of being an alcoholic on the basis that she keeps going to the toilet (itself a pretty inept piece of writing - you suspect someone of being an alcoholic because you keep seeing them drinking alcohol or acting drunk, not because of theyr toilet habits) and who actually smells acetone whilst sitting next to her and does not immediately suspect diabetes.

    I'm not a doctor, but as soon as he mentioned the smell I (along, I suspect, with a few million other people), knew where the plot was going, but, despite virtually being slapped around the head with the evidence, DM was oblivious to the most obvious diagnosis.

    It's hard to believe that the writers can make such elementary errors and yet, at the same time, be generating such deeply layered symbolism.
  • Tangledweb7Tangledweb7 Posts: 3,890
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    The premise is that an American TV anchorman gets Parkinson's disease and is off work for 5 years, and then returns to work and trying to balance a career and family. I haven't watched it yet and reviews are mixed on it.

    Thanks:) I wonder will we get it over here I would love to see it.;)
  • dcdmfandcdmfan Posts: 1,540
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    mmDerdekea wrote: »
    Without a doubt, I strongly believe everything in DM does not have a meaning.

    I'm not sure why everyone is focused on the watch being supposedly one minute behind the clock; for me, no doubt they set the clock handles on the larger clock as close to the same time on his watch. I do not believe there is any deep dark signal they are trying to pass on to the audience, except DM was not able to focus on his patient (which is always indicating a significant disturbance in his mood).

    DM is not unique in being a physician who is programmed to want to effectively treat people and get frustrated when his patients do not follow his directions. All of us physicians, of course, feel the same way. That comes with the career in any caring doc.

    In reality, we have no idea what 5 year old DM thought about when he was presented with a frog to kill and dissect. We cannot really make any type of firm analysis of if that episode affected him and if so, in what ways. It does conjure up a possible emotional reaction in him, given that the only shot of DM as a child was a boy who gently caught butterflies, which seems to be the antithesis of a more aggressive child who would deliberately kill living beings. Was he eager to kill and dissect or forced into it? We simply do not know. He wanted his grandfather's regard, though, and in fact, wanted to show his grandfather up, which is why he became such a master clock fixer. We do not know if his grandfather treated him as badly as he had treated his own children.

    We do not know all the reasons he wanted to be a physician, which seems anyway a positive career goal to have his whole life, being surrounded by male role models who were physicians, and being no doubt innately gifted and drawn to that field from childhood on.

    If we wanted to over-analyze, we could say, "well, he did a very bad job on the frog", as he told Edith, so he became a surgeon to show his grandfather and father he was a better surgeon than they were. We could say a lot of stuff like that, but it's all extrapolation.

    Whether the frog was a key is unsure. We do not know if his grandfather or parents or being sent to boarding school or any or all of those aspects of his young self caused any or all particular problems in him.

    I suppose we'll get that figured out next season, in one hopes a much better written season than the one we just experienced.

    I don't think the difference in the times on the watches was significant either. But I respect other folks' right to find meaning and symbolism in that.

    I like to talk about the settings and costumes. You said that that had nothing to do with your enjoyment of the show.

    You are interested in the medical aspects of the show. I don't question the veracity of your comments. Since I don't care if how he scrubs is the wrong way, I don't know if that has an effect my enjoyment of the show.

    However, I try to keep an open mind about everyone's opinion. Maybe one day you or someone else will say something about the medical parts and that will enhance my enjoyment of the show. You seem like an open minded person. Maybe one day you will notice something about the sets and costumes and other technical aspects that will enhance your enjoyment of the show.
  • MofromcoMofromco Posts: 1,339
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    Zarwen wrote: »
    Besides, we don't have the benefit of vocal tone or inflection here in cyberspace.;)

    We also can't wink wink, nudge nudge.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 39
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    mmDerdekea wrote: »
    Without a doubt, I strongly believe everything in DM does not have a meaning.

    I'm not sure why everyone is focused on the watch being supposedly one minute behind the clock; for me, no doubt they set the clock handles on the larger clock as close to the same time on his watch. I do not believe there is any deep dark signal they are trying to pass on to the audience, except DM was not able to focus on his patient (which is always indicating a significant disturbance in his mood).

    DM is not unique in being a physician who is programmed to want to effectively treat people and get frustrated when his patients do not follow his directions. All of us physicians, of course, feel the same way. That comes with the career in any caring doc.

    In reality, we have no idea what 5 year old DM thought about when he was presented with a frog to kill and dissect. We cannot really make any type of firm analysis of if that episode affected him and if so, in what ways. It does conjure up a possible emotional reaction in him, given that the only shot of DM as a child was a boy who gently caught butterflies, which seems to be the antithesis of a more aggressive child who would deliberately kill living beings. Was he eager to kill and dissect or forced into it? We simply do not know. He wanted his grandfather's regard, though, and in fact, wanted to show his grandfather up, which is why he became such a master clock fixer. We do not know if his grandfather treated him as badly as he had treated his own children.

    We do not know all the reasons he wanted to be a physician, which seems anyway a positive career goal to have his whole life, being surrounded by male role models who were physicians, and being no doubt innately gifted and drawn to that field from childhood on.

    If we wanted to over-analyze, we could say, "well, he did a very bad job on the frog", as he told Edith, so he became a surgeon to show his grandfather and father he was a better surgeon than they were. We could say a lot of stuff like that, but it's all extrapolation.

    Whether the frog was a key is unsure. We do not know if his grandfather or parents or being sent to boarding school or any or all of those aspects of his young self caused any or all particular problems in him.

    I suppose we'll get that figured out next season, in one hopes a much better written season than the one we just experienced.

    The fact that in s1e1 Martin wouldn't kill Aunt Joan's chicken givess us a clue as to how he felt having to kill the frog. I imagine it was pretty traumatic.
  • NewParkNewPark Posts: 3,537
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    I'm still chasing my tail on this:

    Was Louisa meant to remember Martin's pre-op speech to her?

    a) If yes, why was the first thing she said to him that nothing has changed, and the second thing was that they couldn't go back to where they were. Basically, he was telling her that he wanted to change (a huge change in itself) and that he wanted to improve the status quo.

    b) If no, what was the plot point of giving her that speech at that time? And why, since Martin presumably understands the effects of pre-op sedation, would he make that little speech to her?

    Note: I understand the circumstances -- as the scene is shot, it's just the two of them, and she's very relaxed, and maybe under those circumstances, he's able to unburden himself.

    Also: I understand the purpose of the speech as far as the story goes -- which is (I think) to give the viewing audience some sense of hope that at long last he's going to act, and make some changes, instead of just professing his feelings and then shutting back down.

    But, in terms of the plot development; how does it advance the story if she can't remember it or says essentially that it didn't make any difference to her?

    It seems to me that's a plot hole big enough to drive a truck through, and I don't get it.

    The only thing I can come up with, is that he gave her this speech b/c he wanted to sooth her, reassure her as she went into this operation, or wanted to get it off his chest in case things went south quickly and perhaps irremediably,.

    Any other ideas?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 594
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    NewPark wrote: »
    I'm still chasing my tail on this:

    Was Louisa meant to remember Martin's pre-op speech to her?

    a) If yes, why was the first thing she said to him that nothing has changed, and the second thing was that they couldn't go back to where they were. Basically, he was telling her that he wanted to change (a huge change in itself) and that he wanted to improve the status quo.

    b) If no, what was the plot point of giving her that speech at that time? And why, since Martin presumably understands the effects of pre-op sedation, would he make that little speech to her?

    Note: I understand the circumstances -- as the scene is shot, it's just the two of them, and she's very relaxed, and maybe under those circumstances, he's able to unburden himself.

    Also: I understand the purpose of the speech as far as the story goes -- which is (I think) to give the viewing audience some sense of hope that at long last he's going to act, and make some changes, instead of just professing his feelings and then shutting back down.

    But, in terms of the plot development; how does it advance the story if she can't remember it or says essentially that it didn't make any difference to her?

    It seems to me that's a plot hole big enough to drive a truck through, and I don't get it.

    The only thing I can come up with, is that he gave her this speech b/c he wanted to sooth her, reassure her as she went into this operation, or wanted to get it off his chest in case things went south quickly and perhaps irremediably,.

    Any other ideas?

    I think you have compiled a great list. I too am not sure what will be remembered later. That is the conundrum. We know it will not go swimmingly, right? At the end there was no "give me one more chance" speech like at the end of series 5. But will M and L give the other enough chances to make things right? :o
  • lemsterlemster Posts: 196
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    mmDerdekea wrote: »
    Without a doubt, I strongly believe everything in DM does not have a meaning.

    I'm not sure why everyone is focused on the watch being supposedly one minute behind the clock; for me, no doubt they set the clock handles on the larger clock as close to the same time on his watch. I do not believe there is any deep dark signal they are trying to pass on to the audience, except DM was not able to focus on his patient (which is always indicating a significant disturbance in his mood).

    DM is not unique in being a physician who is programmed to want to effectively treat people and get frustrated when his patients do not follow his directions. All of us physicians, of course, feel the same way. That comes with the career in any caring doc.

    In reality, we have no idea what 5 year old DM thought about when he was presented with a frog to kill and dissect. We cannot really make any type of firm analysis of if that episode affected him and if so, in what ways. It does conjure up a possible emotional reaction in him, given that the only shot of DM as a child was a boy who gently caught butterflies, which seems to be the antithesis of a more aggressive child who would deliberately kill living beings. Was he eager to kill and dissect or forced into it? We simply do not know. He wanted his grandfather's regard, though, and in fact, wanted to show his grandfather up, which is why he became such a master clock fixer. We do not know if his grandfather treated him as badly as he had treated his own children.

    We do not know all the reasons he wanted to be a physician, which seems anyway a positive career goal to have his whole life, being surrounded by male role models who were physicians, and being no doubt innately gifted and drawn to that field from childhood on.

    If we wanted to over-analyze, we could say, "well, he did a very bad job on the frog", as he told Edith, so he became a surgeon to show his grandfather and father he was a better surgeon than they were. We could say a lot of stuff like that, but it's all extrapolation.

    Whether the frog was a key is unsure. We do not know if his grandfather or parents or being sent to boarding school or any or all of those aspects of his young self caused any or all particular problems in him.

    I suppose we'll get that figured out next season, in one hopes a much better written season than the one we just experienced.

    As someone once said "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"
  • mmDerdekeammDerdekea Posts: 1,719
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    Vetinari wrote: »
    I absolutely agree.

    I like DM but there is no way I could defend the writing, as it is almost unbelievably sloppy.

    The programme is filled to the brim with utter absurdity and, more importantly, inconsistency, which makes it futile to try and divine deep meaning, especially over series boundaries.

    For example, DM is supposed to be an extremely good doctor.

    And yet he's been told about a patient who is suspected of being an alcoholic on the basis that she keeps going to the toilet (itself a pretty inept piece of writing - you suspect someone of being an alcoholic because you keep seeing them drinking alcohol or acting drunk, not because of theyr toilet habits) and who actually smells acetone whilst sitting next to her and does not immediately suspect diabetes.

    I'm not a doctor, but as soon as he mentioned the smell I (along, I suspect, with a few million other people), knew where the plot was going, but, despite virtually being slapped around the head with the evidence, DM was oblivious to the most obvious diagnosis.

    It's hard to believe that the writers can make such elementary errors and yet, at the same time, be generating such deeply layered symbolism.

    Hello, Vetinari. Welcome to the list.

    I've agreed with many points you've made so far, as well. Nice to see you on the list.
  • mmDerdekeammDerdekea Posts: 1,719
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    NewPark wrote: »
    I'm still chasing my tail on this:

    Was Louisa meant to remember Martin's pre-op speech to her?

    a) If yes, why was the first thing she said to him that nothing has changed, and the second thing was that they couldn't go back to where they were. Basically, he was telling her that he wanted to change (a huge change in itself) and that he wanted to improve the status quo.

    b) If no, what was the plot point of giving her that speech at that time? And why, since Martin presumably understands the effects of pre-op sedation, would he make that little speech to her?

    Note: I understand the circumstances -- as the scene is shot, it's just the two of them, and she's very relaxed, and maybe under those circumstances, he's able to unburden himself.

    Also: I understand the purpose of the speech as far as the story goes -- which is (I think) to give the viewing audience some sense of hope that at long last he's going to act, and make some changes, instead of just professing his feelings and then shutting back down.

    But, in terms of the plot development; how does it advance the story if she can't remember it or says essentially that it didn't make any difference to her?

    It seems to me that's a plot hole big enough to drive a truck through, and I don't get it.

    The only thing I can come up with, is that he gave her this speech b/c he wanted to sooth her, reassure her as she went into this operation, or wanted to get it off his chest in case things went south quickly and perhaps irremediably,.

    Any other ideas?

    The other problem with both conversations is that he tells more about what is going on with him in the pre-surgery conversation, which LG is not going to remember, even though her anesthesiologist was so incompetent LG was, apparently, awake enough during the surgery to note DM was going to vomit and roll her eyes, WHILE intubated, and while delicate surgery was going on regarding her carotid artery and her brain.

    I don't mind suspending my belief, but this requires nuking my beliefs with a hydrogen bomb until all my belief atoms are vaporized! :)

    However, once LG is awake and recovering, DM does the annoying kind of "art" talk which hardly anyone does in real life. I mean, after ensuring she is okay, why doesn't he just say "I need your help. I have to process my childhood to be a better husband. I guess we need to be apart until I figure all that out." No, instead we get a barely understandable conversation where everything is insinuated and nothing is actually clearly said. I know that is considered "art" at some level, but in normal life, people just tend to speak their points much more succinctly. At some point I hope DM can start doing that, so he and LG and we fans can all move forward quite a bit in plot comprehension.
  • SapphicGrrlSapphicGrrl Posts: 3,992
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    mmDerdekea wrote: »
    Hello, Vetinari. Welcome to the list.

    I've agreed with many points you've made so far, as well. Nice to see you on the list.
    What's the list you're referring to? :confused:
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