On the contrary, a disproportionate number of those arrested for involvement in terrorism seem to be converts. Which is along the same lines: those predisposed towards revenge and violent and anti-social behaviour find that they can join the biggest, baddest, most feared gang in town.
Are you sure?
All the characters I read about joining ISIS seem to be from Muslim families.
Its the same principle as the youth of the Beatles era having an uncomfortable admiration of Hitler, as a rebelling against their parents' generations and morality.
I was a youth in the Beatles era. I don't recall any particular admiration for Hitler among my contemporaries.
It's not an excuse or appeasement, it's an explanation. I have suggested something along these lines myself. Teenagers often go through a phase where they are attracted to outlaws and outcasts. There is no reason to suppose that most of them have been attracted by the beheading videos. There are plenty of videos online presenting them as maverick warriors fighting the establishment.
It's not morally attractive, but teenagers running away to join bands of pirates/ highwaymen/ bandits is a story as old as recorded history. No doubt those who are not psychopaths quickly learn their mistake.
On the contrary, a disproportionate number of those arrested for involvement in terrorism seem to be converts. Which is along the same lines: those predisposed towards revenge and violent and anti-social behaviour find that they can join the biggest, baddest, most feared gang in town.
IS aren't exactly shy about presenting their extreme bloodthirsty / intolerant views , they're damn proud of it , they make the violence of their hardline islamist views very clear ,
anyone going off to join them is aware of what they're about , I really don't think they're expecting to meet Jack Sparrow .
It's not an excuse or appeasement, it's an explanation. I have suggested something along these lines myself. Teenagers often go through a phase where they are attracted to outlaws and outcasts. There is no reason to suppose that most of them have been attracted by the beheading videos. There are plenty of videos online presenting them as maverick warriors fighting the establishment.
It's not morally attractive, but teenagers running away to join bands of pirates/ highwaymen/ bandits is a story as old as recorded history. No doubt those who are not psychopaths quickly learn their mistake.
On the contrary, a disproportionate number of those arrested for involvement in terrorism seem to be converts. Which is along the same lines: those predisposed towards revenge and violent and anti-social behaviour find that they can join the biggest, baddest, most feared gang in town.
Like jihadi-daddy and his teddy bear? His girl was primed in the home.
And what about family men taking their children there?
They're not converts. They're dyed in the wool Islamists.
There's more home influence there than any Islamist parent will ever admit.
Thus the desperate attempts to blame the police, the government, the internet, to compare it with teenage crushes on pop stars, to minimise the horrors their children will participate in.
And they'll never admit it.
It's not an excuse or appeasement, it's an explanation. I have suggested something along these lines myself. Teenagers often go through a phase where they are attracted to outlaws and outcasts. There is no reason to suppose that most of them have been attracted by the beheading videos. There are plenty of videos online presenting them as maverick warriors fighting the establishment.
It's not morally attractive, but teenagers running away to join bands of pirates/ highwaymen/ bandits is a story as old as recorded history. No doubt those who are not psychopaths quickly learn their mistake.
On the contrary, a disproportionate number of those arrested for involvement in terrorism seem to be converts. Which is along the same lines: those predisposed towards revenge and violent and anti-social behaviour find that they can join the biggest, baddest, most feared gang in town.
" No, Your Honour, I didn't join ISIS to behead infidel aid workers or to torture, rape and enslave Yazidi and Christian women. Nor even to impose an anti-human system of religious governance upon everyone within my sphere of influence. I went to fight DA MAN ! "
teenagers need to rebel, when you pull back from the object you can see the behaviour but there`s generally a "heroic" role model.
Seriously though, there's rebelling by getting into trouble because of vandalism and shoplifting.....and then there's IS, the cult that has brutal serial killers, child rapists and rapists in it. Hell, that's way past simple rebelling.
Like jihadi-daddy and his teddy bear? His girl was primed in the home.
And what about family men taking their children there?
They're not converts. They're dyed in the wool Islamists.
There's more home influence there than any Islamist parent will ever admit.
Thus the desperate attempts to blame the police, the government, the internet, to compare it with teenage crushes on pop stars, to minimise the horrors their children will participate in.
And they'll never admit it.
Exactly - but what really worries me is how many of these families there are in this country now - home-grown fanatics just waiting to commit an atrocity here if they can.
And examples like Jabba the Pickles sending a sickeningly grovelling letter to the Imams is only going to make the extremists laugh even more at the authorities absolute terror of offending the Muslim 'community'.
Seriously though, there's rebelling by getting into trouble because of vandalism and shoplifting.....and then there's IS, the cult that has brutal serial killers, child rapists and rapists in it. Hell, that's way past simple rebelling.
i don`t know a massive amount about war [ok zero] but the spanish civil war attracted rebellious types didn`t it?
It did...but I'm thinking more of the phenomenon of the "present" teen generation idolising the bugbears of the previous generation...as a way of getting up their noses.
Nowadays it's worse, it's coupled with a HUGE amount of naivety about the world.
I suppose that when we and the US paid for ISIS and armed it to the teeth, in order that it try to destabilise a foreign country (Iraq), as we finance quite a few such rebellious organisations in order to cause trouble, sometimes against democratically elected governments such as Ukraine, we all thought they were heroes. It didn't work out very well.
Now instead of demonising Saddam, we instead demonise the group we set up to oppose his government. Of course it all keeps our arms trade working.
Do you know that the world spends 1.7 thousand billion dollars of military spend every year?
If we spent just one tenth of that on something else, we would easily be able to solve everything. Every disease cured, everybody gets enough water and food, all pollution vanishes, you name it, it could be solved.
If you don't believe me, ask any doctor whether he/she thinks that we could solve the west's biggest disease, diabetes, for 100 billion dollars. And that is only one year with plenty left over.
IS aren't exactly shy about presenting their extreme bloodthirsty / intolerant views , they're damn proud of it , they make the violence of their hardline islamist views very clear ,
They present themselves as freedom fighters fighting for the rights of the underdog. I really think it is more likely that teenage girls have been watching videos along these lines and swooning over the bad boys with their guns than that they think, "Ooh I hope I get to meet someone like Alan Henning and kill him." You could suggest that they are both stupid and immoral, but it would surely be very strange teenage girl behaviour to run away from home out of naked sadism and the hope of causing as much pain as possible.
anyone going off to join them is aware of what they're about , I really don't think they're expecting to meet Jack Sparrow .
.
Oddly enough, Jack Sparrow is fictional. Real pirates were very unfunny indeed; their whole way of life centred round overpowering and slaughtering innocent people in order to steal their money. But obviously some people saw the life as an adventurous one.
" No, Your Honour, I didn't join ISIS to behead infidel aid workers or to torture, rape and enslave Yazidi and Christian women. Nor even to impose an anti-human system of religious governance upon everyone within my sphere of influence. I went to fight DA MAN ! "
I don't suppose the Bethnal Green girls will have been hoping for rape and torture, do you?
I suppose that when we and the US paid for ISIS and armed it to the teeth, in order that it try to destabilise a foreign country (Iraq), as we finance quite a few such rebellious organisations in order to cause trouble, sometimes against democratically elected governments such as Ukraine, we all thought they were heroes. It didn't work out very well.
Now instead of demonising Saddam, we instead demonise the group we set up to oppose his government. Of course it all keeps our arms trade working.
Do you know that the world spends 1.7 thousand billion dollars of military spend every year?
If we spent just one tenth of that on something else, we would easily be able to solve everything. Every disease cured, everybody gets enough water and food, all pollution vanishes, you name it, it could be solved.
If you don't believe me, ask any doctor whether he/she thinks that we could solve the west's biggest disease, diabetes, for 100 billion dollars. And that is only one year with plenty left over.
It's an appropriate day to point out that the last person to say that got crucified for it, and a more recent prophet recommended the exact opposite, and currently seems the more successful.
They present themselves as freedom fighters fighting for the rights of the underdog. I really think it is more likely that teenage girls have been watching videos along these lines and swooning over the bad boys with their guns than that they think, "Ooh I hope I get to meet someone like Alan Henning and kill him." You could suggest that they are both stupid and immoral, but it would surely be very strange teenage girl behaviour to run away from home out of naked sadism and the hope of causing as much pain as possible.
no they really don't , 'freedom' is very much something they're against , they make it clear that they want to conquer and convert forcibly , as they deomonstrated to the Yazhidis .
you and I would find it very strange teenage behaviour , but these people don't obviously .
Oddly enough, Jack Sparrow is fictional. Real pirates were very unfunny indeed; their whole way of life centred round overpowering and slaughtering innocent people in order to steal their money. But obviously some people saw the life as an adventurous one.
Not their own, certainly. But then they are neither Yazidi or Christian, are they ?
None of us (presumably) knows them personally. But it seems far more likely to me that 15 year old girls would fantasize about being a 'Jihadi bride', with its overtones of marrying the bad-boy gang leader, than that they would fantasize about assisting, in some unspecified way, with the rape of other girls.
no they really don't , 'freedom' is very much something they're against , they make it clear that they want to conquer and convert forcibly , as they deomonstrated to the Yazhidis .
yeah , but how does that help your point ?
.
they are not looking at it with your eyes, they are seeing it from their own view.
Not their own, certainly. But then they are not Yazidi or Christian, are they ?
Quite. All of these IS supporters, in whatever role, can hardly claim to be unaware of the activities of the group. So they must think it's a good thing, rape, brutal murder, supposed holy war, the whole shooting match. Why they think that is the bit we have to face up to. It seems clear after the latest revelations that upbringing is a major factor. New converts do have a great amount of zeal, for sure, but by far the greater number of recruits are birth Muslims.
no they really don't , 'freedom' is very much something they're against , they make it clear that they want to conquer and convert forcibly , as they deomonstrated to the Yazhidis .
'Freedom fighter' doesn't mean someone in favour of freedom. It means someone in favour of freedom for THEM. One man's terrorist will always be another man's freedom fighter.
Isis recruitment videos don't say, "come and join us and torture innocent civilians'. They appeal to peoples' idealism, pride (vanity perhaps might be a better word - they will be one of an elite), reaching out to anyone who feels a sense of grievance. Look at the clips on here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdgzCbrPqzQ; at the carefully chosen handsome, well-spoken young men (one of them cuddling a kitten, of all things), offering rebellion, adventure and that most seductive of things to a disaffected teenager - a powerful sense of community.
They MUST know that they are joining people who have done evil things. They are not morally off the hook simply because they are silly, naive, dazzled by a slick production. But explaining things is not the same as excusing things. Indeed, I think getting into the psychology of those attracted by the videos is essential: it is surely our best chance of finding ways of combating them. Just saying, "they are all evil, they are all wicked, I hope they all rot in hell" is not exactly likely to lead to an effective strategy to defeat them.
yeah , but how does that help your point ?
.
I was just putting in a bit of historical context. There have ALWAYS been teenagers who develop a moral blindness if something looks exciting and rebellious. And there is generally a special hell waiting for girls who think that the scariest man will look after them the best. I would be willing to bet that the average 'Jihadi bride' doesn't have much of a life at all.
None of us (presumably) knows them personally. But it seems far more likely to me that 15 year old girls would fantasize about being a 'Jihadi bride', with its overtones of marrying the bad-boy gang leader, than that they would fantasize about assisting, in some unspecified way, with the rape of other girls.
It seems far more likely to me that the zealous little sadists fantasized about being instrumental in the restoration of a stomach-churning 7th century caliphate. ' Bad-boy gang leaders ' are globally available, no need to join ISIS to find one.
It seems far more likely to me that the zealous little sadists fantasized about being instrumental in the restoration of a stomach-churning 7th century caliphate. ' Bad-boy gang leaders ' are globally available, no need to join ISIS to find one.
Wanting a 'caliphate' does not make a 15 year old into a 'zealous little sadist'. An idiot perhaps.
And Isis are the bad-boy gang leaders they see. They meet someone on-line (in this case, a nice sounding woman) who tells them the ways and means, and off they go on their big adventure.
They have behaved unscrupulously, and apart from anything else, may have caused indescribable pain to those who love them. But a 15 year old is not a 25 year old. Most 15 year olds who do stupid, selfish things grow up and feel ashamed. They may not get the chance.
Comments
Are you sure?
All the characters I read about joining ISIS seem to be from Muslim families.
If that is the case then they have far lower cognitive abilities than a bloody Slime mould with Senile Dementia.
Perhaps that will help them in their fight for ISIS - a bullet to the head would do no damage at all.
I was a youth in the Beatles era. I don't recall any particular admiration for Hitler among my contemporaries.
IS aren't exactly shy about presenting their extreme bloodthirsty / intolerant views , they're damn proud of it , they make the violence of their hardline islamist views very clear ,
anyone going off to join them is aware of what they're about , I really don't think they're expecting to meet Jack Sparrow .
.
Like jihadi-daddy and his teddy bear? His girl was primed in the home.
And what about family men taking their children there?
They're not converts. They're dyed in the wool Islamists.
There's more home influence there than any Islamist parent will ever admit.
Thus the desperate attempts to blame the police, the government, the internet, to compare it with teenage crushes on pop stars, to minimise the horrors their children will participate in.
And they'll never admit it.
" No, Your Honour, I didn't join ISIS to behead infidel aid workers or to torture, rape and enslave Yazidi and Christian women. Nor even to impose an anti-human system of religious governance upon everyone within my sphere of influence. I went to fight DA MAN ! "
Seriously though, there's rebelling by getting into trouble because of vandalism and shoplifting.....and then there's IS, the cult that has brutal serial killers, child rapists and rapists in it. Hell, that's way past simple rebelling.
Exactly - but what really worries me is how many of these families there are in this country now - home-grown fanatics just waiting to commit an atrocity here if they can.
And examples like Jabba the Pickles sending a sickeningly grovelling letter to the Imams is only going to make the extremists laugh even more at the authorities absolute terror of offending the Muslim 'community'.
i`m speaking of the mechanics, as it were.
It did...but I'm thinking more of the phenomenon of the "present" teen generation idolising the bugbears of the previous generation...as a way of getting up their noses.
Nowadays it's worse, it's coupled with a HUGE amount of naivety about the world.
Now instead of demonising Saddam, we instead demonise the group we set up to oppose his government. Of course it all keeps our arms trade working.
Do you know that the world spends 1.7 thousand billion dollars of military spend every year?
If we spent just one tenth of that on something else, we would easily be able to solve everything. Every disease cured, everybody gets enough water and food, all pollution vanishes, you name it, it could be solved.
If you don't believe me, ask any doctor whether he/she thinks that we could solve the west's biggest disease, diabetes, for 100 billion dollars. And that is only one year with plenty left over.
Oddly enough, Jack Sparrow is fictional. Real pirates were very unfunny indeed; their whole way of life centred round overpowering and slaughtering innocent people in order to steal their money. But obviously some people saw the life as an adventurous one.
I don't suppose the Bethnal Green girls will have been hoping for rape and torture, do you?
It's an appropriate day to point out that the last person to say that got crucified for it, and a more recent prophet recommended the exact opposite, and currently seems the more successful.
Not their own, certainly. But then they are neither Yazidi nor Christian, are they ?
no they really don't , 'freedom' is very much something they're against , they make it clear that they want to conquer and convert forcibly , as they deomonstrated to the Yazhidis .
you and I would find it very strange teenage behaviour , but these people don't obviously .
yeah , but how does that help your point ?
.
None of us (presumably) knows them personally. But it seems far more likely to me that 15 year old girls would fantasize about being a 'Jihadi bride', with its overtones of marrying the bad-boy gang leader, than that they would fantasize about assisting, in some unspecified way, with the rape of other girls.
they are not looking at it with your eyes, they are seeing it from their own view.
Quite. All of these IS supporters, in whatever role, can hardly claim to be unaware of the activities of the group. So they must think it's a good thing, rape, brutal murder, supposed holy war, the whole shooting match. Why they think that is the bit we have to face up to. It seems clear after the latest revelations that upbringing is a major factor. New converts do have a great amount of zeal, for sure, but by far the greater number of recruits are birth Muslims.
I would say they're seeing it from the IS point of view .
how do you think they're seeing it ?
.
Not according to me but according to their (misfit) fantasies.
'Freedom fighter' doesn't mean someone in favour of freedom. It means someone in favour of freedom for THEM. One man's terrorist will always be another man's freedom fighter.
Isis recruitment videos don't say, "come and join us and torture innocent civilians'. They appeal to peoples' idealism, pride (vanity perhaps might be a better word - they will be one of an elite), reaching out to anyone who feels a sense of grievance. Look at the clips on here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdgzCbrPqzQ; at the carefully chosen handsome, well-spoken young men (one of them cuddling a kitten, of all things), offering rebellion, adventure and that most seductive of things to a disaffected teenager - a powerful sense of community.
They MUST know that they are joining people who have done evil things. They are not morally off the hook simply because they are silly, naive, dazzled by a slick production. But explaining things is not the same as excusing things. Indeed, I think getting into the psychology of those attracted by the videos is essential: it is surely our best chance of finding ways of combating them. Just saying, "they are all evil, they are all wicked, I hope they all rot in hell" is not exactly likely to lead to an effective strategy to defeat them.
I was just putting in a bit of historical context. There have ALWAYS been teenagers who develop a moral blindness if something looks exciting and rebellious. And there is generally a special hell waiting for girls who think that the scariest man will look after them the best. I would be willing to bet that the average 'Jihadi bride' doesn't have much of a life at all.
It seems far more likely to me that the zealous little sadists fantasized about being instrumental in the restoration of a stomach-churning 7th century caliphate. ' Bad-boy gang leaders ' are globally available, no need to join ISIS to find one.
Wanting a 'caliphate' does not make a 15 year old into a 'zealous little sadist'. An idiot perhaps.
And Isis are the bad-boy gang leaders they see. They meet someone on-line (in this case, a nice sounding woman) who tells them the ways and means, and off they go on their big adventure.
They have behaved unscrupulously, and apart from anything else, may have caused indescribable pain to those who love them. But a 15 year old is not a 25 year old. Most 15 year olds who do stupid, selfish things grow up and feel ashamed. They may not get the chance.